Time for FFXI "Classic"?

[atom0s]

Let's flip the script. Here's the question I've asked that has yet to be answered.

Why is it bad for a game to be designed with exclusive top tier content that, by design, less than all the players will complete? What is the affirmative reason why everyone should be able to 100% every single game?

Personally, I miss this aspect of games. The whole casual-mode concept of games now, including how retail FFXI is, makes things so boring and watered down.
There's basically a fear by game producers/investors that if 100% isn't obtainable (or in EA's case, purchasable) by everyone, then the game won't do well.

Something that WoW did well with this early on was how expansions made previous content easier while adding new hard content for those that loved to push end game. Another game brought up earlier was Diablo, it was similar in D2 where level cap wasn't a common thing and was only something those that played a ton and took the time to grind would get. The game was playable at endgame fully around Lv70, and everything above that was just a bonus. People don't want a repeat of Diablo 3 which basically was a Disney version of Diablo watered down so much because of this same 100% mindset.

At this point, the only game I feel that still tries to do any of that feeling where 100% isn't for all is Path of Exile. Level cap of 100 isn't common, the crafting system is so in-depth and hard to master, and the top-tier end game isn't something most land up playing. It's a game where you do feel you earned things because of having that feeling and aspect to the gameplay. (Of course, it has its own set of issues/flaws though, not saying it's perfect.)

[Gredival]

Let me try a different metaphor.

A lot of people have the drive to be rich. They see someone else park a Maserati in front of a gorgeous mansion on their way back from a vacation in the Bahamas and they want that. In the depths of their soul, they want to "make it."

I personally don't need that. Now don't get me wrong, I would love having the money to buy whatever I want whenever I want without consequences. But I don't have the drive to go grind out the hours to become a partner at a huge law firm and get all the prestige to get some huge corporation as a client and get paid hundreds of thousands to get them out of liability for doing some shady unethical shit. I don't burn with hatred for those wealthier than me unless they actively do something deplorable with their money like PharmaBro. I'm not sad that I don't get to golf at their country clubs. I'm not sad I don't get invited to their yacht parties.

I imagine that it's the same for most of you. You would love having more money, but it's not the end of the world that you're not the 1%. There's more to your life than getting that bread.

Now apply that to MMOs.

For me, when I saw the gear the best THFs used in order to do respectable damage, I decided I wanted that. I decided I would do whatever it took to get it. Fafhogg was my white whale. The Hecatomb Cap and Subligar were my trophies.

Why am I bad for that?

What makes it so that you can accept Bill Gates being a millionaire for founding Microsoft and putting in the sleepless nights and hours to raise that company up for the ground, but you think it's bad that for people to have the drive to sacrifice, toil, struggle, and bleed to get exponentially rare and exclusive HNM gear?

Why is it an issue for games to have content for these types of players?

Games are not just their highest tier of content. FFXI was not just HNMs even in the HNMLS era. So why does the mere existence of that top tier bother you so?

[Kanriel]

I'd wager a handful of people hating on private servers and/or 75cap old school retail don't really pay attention to the private server scene. Yes, it is a total shit show, not denying that, but the player numbers on certain servers completely invalidate a handful of opinions shared in this thread.

There's a lot of hate towards the original FFXI game and playstyle. However, you can take a quick look at the two highest populated private servers (Nasomi and Eden) and see 75cap old school retail is what the majority of the players not on retail exclusively want. The rest of the servers do not even come close to the numbers these two servers have put up over the year(s). The simple fact that Nasomi alone sits at a player count higher than majority of the current retail servers and has competed with Asura numbers in the past pretty much seals that. When Eden launched, before all the drama that has happened, they were right behind Nasomi in player counts as well peaking a bit under concurrent 1k players, with an average of around 400-800 online at a time. Between the two servers combined, they are well over Asura's typical player count.

If SE did create a classic server, it would easily hands down be more popular that current retail. The data/numbers that are available from past peaks on both servers, as well as their every day peaks and distinct connections provide clear proof this is still the case, by far.

The player count would vary over time as people quickly level up and hit end game. One of the biggest issues back then was the leveling gap which is why level sync was introduced and why both Nasomi and Eden have it. Some QoL was good for the game, while others killed the enjoyment/incentive people had. If this were to ever be a thing from SE, I would agree some QoL would have to come into play to deal with certain aspects of things, but I would probably see them adding it as time goes by and things become needed. (Again for example, level sync. There would be no reason to add it from the start at all if they were to ever add it in this kind of situation.)

Burn out would happen a lot faster than it did when the game originally released as well, which is something WoW Classic is dealing with already. While everyone loves classic and wanted it back, the game overall didn't have much in terms of content to really keep people playing long term outside of the fact of being 40man raids, lockouts, and slow leveling. Now that everyone knows all the ins and outs of the game, knows the best strats/setups for raids to lowman things, and to burn through leveling/content, the lifespan of the classic game is cut in such a small chunk compared to how it played originially. Most of the major players have already unsubbed because they've hit level cap, done Molten Core and so on and basically 'beat the game' again already. Which comes into the next situation of adding expansions again as time goes on which is something Blizzard is planning on doing to keep Classic going now that it's back.

I feel you were making a point (that I still mostly disagree with) and your final paragraph kinda shit it all up. The "free" aspect is significant. There were classic WoW servers since forever, WoW Classic launched to great fanfare, and now you're saying people are already super bored with it because there wasn't a lot there. Well...FFXI is that to XI. I bet once you got people to burn to 75 and start Sky, and people had to start competing for sky god pops again, people would lose interest fast. Once that novelty wore off, and people had their magic packets at work to claim Fafhogg first, people would realize they're not going to pay $13/month to nerdrage in the Aery a few days a week.

For me, when I saw the gear the best THFs used in order to do respectable damage, I decided I wanted that. I decided I would do whatever it took to get it. Fafhogg was my white whale. The Hecatomb Cap and Subligar were my trophies.

Why am I bad for that?

You're not. But that's not a game that works for everyone. And the overall point of the thread is "Is there merit in SE creating a classic server?" and your argument is "I want to be the most special snowflake and if you can't handle my grinding, you deserve nothing for it." That mechanic absolutely has an appeal to a certain type of player (including myself) but that doesn't mean that's good game design for a profitable game.

Games are not just their highest tier of content. FFXI was not just HNMs even in the HNMLS era. So why does the mere existence of that top tier bother you so?

I feel that you're right, games are not just their highest tier of content, but every time I've played an MMO, everyone has aspirations of being at that highest tier, and they're perpetually on that wheel to try to get there. Your "ideal" game design, basically laughs at their attempts, because only 0.1% of players will get to be that tier, which leads to more of them burning out. I think that's why XI died during ToAU. People caught up on the EXP grinding, then we had data about drop rates, HNMLS honor codes were faltering (at least on Shiva they were, thanks in part to Daakpunk's LS that openly botted, MPK'd, stole mobs, etc.) and realized that such a small number of people ever got to that point, and it wasn't worth playing anymore for it.

[Gredival]

No other game has given the same feeling of having a relic in the 75 cap era that’s for god damn sure. The only other comparable feeling was when another LS mate achieved it too and you knew your shell became that much more prestigious.

Played a lot of games since then. Done a lot of cool shit. Nothing has ever even come close to the accomplishments you felt from FFXI. Not even a fraction.

I'll go one step further. I don't think any of my accomplishments in life -- academic, charitable, or professional -- measure up to the pure joy I felt when I finally got my Hecatomb Subligar. Not my lamb skins from prestigious elite ivory tower schools, not coaching students to winning the national championship, not writing text for the actual California Code of Regulations.

The years of fruitless grinding to recruit more people, get them end game access and gear to have the bodies to be able to fight HNMs. The hours without getting claims. The things I passed on IRL to camp. The embarrassment and frustration of wipes. The agony of leaving my own shell. The friends left behind in the server transfer. It was all redeemed in that moment.

That's something that you can only get when you achieve something that you literally bleed for. It's the struggle itself that made it so euphoric to win. Nothing else has made me work so hard. Nothing else tasted so sweet.

And now all that remains is the bitter taste of ashes and a burning hatred for Mizuki Ito.

[Gredival]

That mechanic absolutely has an appeal to a certain type of player (including myself) but that doesn't mean that's good game design for a profitable game.

But that mechanic is not exclusive. As I said, "Games are not just their highest tier of content. FFXI was not just HNMs even in the HNMLS era."

FFXI had stratified content with stratified rewards. Not everyone needs to aim for the top.

But we've come to an era where people take it for granted that games should have "accessibility" meaning every single person can do every single thing.

It's simply not true that this is superior design (see the egalitarianism vs. elitism substance debate) and that the old way is economically unfeasible (see private servers vs. retail, WoW Classic vs. Retail WoW, Brood War vs. StarCraft II, the success of unforgiving games like Sekiro and Dark Souls)

[Kanriel]

I'll go one step further. I don't think any of my accomplishments in life -- academic, charitable, or professional -- measure up to the pure joy I felt when I finally got my Hecatomb Subligar. Not my lamb skins from prestigious elite ivory tower schools, not coaching students to the national championships, not writing text for the actual California Code of Regulations.

The years of fruitless grinding to recruit more people, get them end game access and gear to have the bodies to be able to fight HNMs. The hours without getting claims. The things I passed on IRL to camp. The embarrassment and frustration of wipes. The agony of leaving my own shell. The friends left behind in the server transfer. It was all redeemed in that moment.

That's something that you can only get when you achieve something that you literally bleed for. It's the struggle itself that made it so euphoric to win. Nothing else has made me work so hard. Nothing else tasted so sweet.

And now all that remains is the bitter taste of ashes and a burning hatred for Mizuki Ito.

Honestly...this just sounds sad. Those real accomplishments you list sound so much more impressive than getting a drop in a MMO. I'm not sure if this is the highest levels of rose-colored glasses, or some level of MMO addiction/obsession, but how some virtual drop is more impactful than things that are certainly going to effect the lives of others for years/decades, is mind boggling.

[Gredival]

Honestly...this just sounds sad. Those real accomplishments you list sound so much more impressive than getting a drop in a MMO. I'm not sure if this is the highest levels of rose-colored glasses, or some level of MMO addiction/obsession, but how some virtual drop is more impactful than things that are certainly going to effect the lives of others for years/decades, is mind boggling.

[kuronosan]

Honestly...this just sounds sad. Those real accomplishments you list sound so much more impressive than getting a drop in a MMO. I'm not sure if this is the highest levels of rose-colored glasses, or some level of MMO addiction/obsession, but how some virtual drop is more impactful than things that are certainly going to effect the lives of others for years/decades, is mind boggling.

MD or that time I got my Kirin Osode?

Well, medicine has allowed me to understand how potent dopamine is to your sense of reward... so I feel like life is pretty littered with moments of dopamine rushes from any accomplishment.

After all, your brain's reward system doesn't distinguish between virtual items and tangible accomplishments.

Thankfully our brains are good at distinguishing between judgmental douches and the general populace.

[Kanriel]

But we've come to an era where people take it for granted that games should have "accessibility" meaning every single person can do every single thing.

But even retail isn't at this point. The vast majority of XI players will not be beating wave 3 Dynamis on their own ability anytime soon. They may be able to buy a clear, and some might manage to get into a LS and get carried, but the majority of XI players are just going to get shit on in there.

[arus2001]

While I don't expect everyone to want to 100% a game, my problem with this process is when doing so seems to hinge more on luck than actual skill. This is why so many consistently shit on Kings past and present. The fights themselves weren't difficult, it was just getting the opportunity to try and then hope drop RNG cooperates. And like others have said before, they would have happily taken a more difficult, reasonably on-demand King experience to get to the same loot in the end. Just how difficult that should be will vary depending on who you ask. We kinda sorta got it eventually, but by then, we could probably argue they didn't matter anymore.

I can't really stress enough that I was one of those people burning out at the tail end of ToAU. I'd pretty much gotten everything I wanted out of endgame, had most of the jobs 75 and merited, and was feeling more socially obligated to attend events to not seem ungrateful about my gains than I was legitimately interested in doing them or helping the niche few who also needed things. I legit felt Campaign was more fun than anything else WotG had to offer at the time even if the rewards were shit and the system sorely needed expansion. This experience was a personal reminder that horizontal progression is not as infallible as some think it is. When new content launches and is already DoA because I saw no drops I wanted or felt it off in the balance department, there was zero motivation to do it beyond once just to see it. Conversely, Abyssea happens and suddenly all my jobs need new everything. I was excited because I had shit to do solo, with a few closer friends, or a greater portion of our HNMLS.

I've said it a few times in this thread already and elsewhere. The problem with XI then and now was SE stopped giving players things to do. We needed something better than Voidwatch to throw our newly 99 gains at. Things floundered until suddenly Adoulin announcement, which just recreated the same problem with the ilvl twist. Both these periods also suffered from the RME or GTFO PUG mentality, which is not how PUGs should be approached at all. Things have just whimpered along from there with the skeleton crew. Frankly, this is where Punk and I should be surprisingly similar in criticism, but instead of thinking what's old is new again, I'd rather new be new. I don't want to regress to 75 because I actually like changes made to jobs 76+ and the greater flexibility in gear options some received. I'll forever assert SE still has work to do here when it comes to both identity and desirability, but I was also banging that drum in the 75 cap, too.

[Kanriel]

I've said it a few times in this thread already and elsewhere. The problem with XI then and now was SE stopped giving players things to do. We needed something better than Voidwatch to throw our newly 99 gains at. Things floundered until suddenly Adoulin announcement, which just recreated the same problem with the ilvl twist. Both these periods also suffered from the RME or GTFO PUG mentality, which is not how PUGs should be approached at all. Things have just whimpered along from there with the skeleton crew. Frankly, this is where Punk and I should be surprisingly similar in criticism, but instead of thinking what's old is new again, I'd rather new be new. I don't want to regress to 75 because I actually like changes made to jobs 76+ and the greater flexibility in gear options some received. I'll forever assert SE still has work to do here when it comes to both identity and desirability, but I was also banging that drum in the 75 cap, too.

Oh yeah, SE "gave up" on FFXI when they moved most of the Devs over to XIV. And they never got on board with pushing XI, even when they came out with Adoulin/Rhapsodies. The effort simply has NOT been there for XI, and I absolutely consider that within my arguments in this thread. Because there's no chance SE is going to all of a sudden make an official classic XI server when they've had the current paying customers getting by on scraps for years now.

Personally, I think the current developers have done a solid job with what they've been given, but that's because they haven't been given shit. They don't seem to be able to code outside of the PS2 limitations (either unable to do so at all, don't know how, or don't have the time/manpower to figure it out) which keeps things limited at 80 cap inventory, packet size, down/up speeds, etc. And this also relates to being unable to add new jobs/abilities/spells/etc. They would need full teams able to work on things and SE isn't giving them that budget. And there's no clear reason to think a classic server would see success, so SE certainly isn't going to risk that on XI, as they haven't considered it worth any risk in over a decade.

[Day]

D44k is actually the only one going out of his way to personally attack people in each post.

this is horse shit, you, spicy, and co attack this guy every chance you get then pretend he's the only one talking shit

[Gredival]

While I don't expect everyone to want to 100% a game, my problem with this process is when doing so seems to hinge more on luck than actual skill. This is why so many consistently shit on Kings past and present. The fights themselves weren't difficult, it was just getting the opportunity to try and then hope drop RNG cooperates. And like others have said before, they would have happily taken a more difficult, reasonably on-demand King experience to get to the same loot in the end. Just how difficult that should be will vary depending on who you ask. We kinda sorta got it eventually, but by then, we could probably argue they didn't matter anymore.

I have debated the substance of many of these points, repeatedly, in this thread and in the FFXI Nostalgia thread last year.

1) There is an element of luck but the most dedicated get the most claims, therefore the most drops
2) The difficulty of the mob is the skill test. Being a world spawn with a server limitation actually makes it harder.
3) On-demand is bad. Artificial rarity and server limitations are good.
4) The average player could not consistently do Kings. Again, I personally led a linkshell that could do Jorm/JoL/Bahamut-II/Proto-Ultima that wiped on 6/30 Fafnir claims. You could see new groups try their hand at camping all the time, wipe/flail/rage, and never return. They aren't used to Yellow is Fair Game.

I can't really stress enough that I was one of those people burning out at the tail end of ToAU. I'd pretty much gotten everything I wanted out of endgame, had most of the jobs 75 and merited, and was feeling more socially obligated to attend events to not seem ungrateful about my gains than I was legitimately interested in doing them or helping the niche few who also needed things. I legit felt Campaign was more fun than anything else WotG had to offer at the time even if the rewards were shit and the system sorely needed expansion. This experience was a personal reminder that horizontal progression is not as infallible as some think it is. When new content launches and is already DoA because I saw no drops I wanted or felt it off in the balance department, there was zero motivation to do it beyond once just to see it. Conversely, Abyssea happens and suddenly all my jobs need new everything. I was excited because I had shit to do solo, with a few closer friends, or a greater portion of our HNMLS.

That's not a problem with horizontal progression, that was a problem with WotG content not having terminal rewards.

As I have said before, MMO = Skinner Box. There needs to be a prize for the rat pushing the lever.

You can have those terminal rewards without obsoleting previous content. Look at how they balanced Sea vs. Sky. Hell, look how they balance gear right now by making things situational. New content and new gear was not mutually exclusive with keeping Adaberk as either the best TP piece of WS chest, keeping Haidate as the best TP legs, etc.

[Gredival]

this is horse shit, you, spicy, and co attack this guy every chance you get then pretend he's the only one talking shit

Okay I may need to quit this thread, I actually agree with day on something.

[Kanriel]

4) The average player could not consistently do Kings.

The average player never got to fight a King. The fights mostly weren't that incredibly complex or difficult, it was artificial difficulty in the form of the limitations you clamor for. With a few tries the average player could have done it, they managed it in most other forms of content in the day. We had some complete retards with us, in the stun order, when they'd land 1/3 of their stuns, and we'd still manage Cerberus clears, so only reason Kings were that special is because you simply didn't get to fight them. Which, again, may be a fun game for you, but is dumb shit for most everyone else, thus bad for the overall game.

[Gredival]

Nietzsche basically explains this whole thing.

The "lambs" excluded from HNMs see themselves as good, and as a result they constructed a worldview of the "birds of prey" in the HNMLS as evil. Instead of directing their will to power inwards they manifest ressentiment and cry about the system. Their value system perverts the natural order. Now birds are supposed to feel guilty for their fortune. The lambs clamor for an ideal world without privilege that ultimately manifests in a drive to eliminate difference. God (Tanaka) is dead, and we have killed him.

The lambs get their world without difference: everyone has full AF3, everyone has an Empyrean... and instead of paradise we are greeted with a state of the world that is contemptible. Nihilism triumphs for the world truly has lost all meaning. Subscriptions dry up and we are left with a barren wasteland.

Well, medicine has allowed me to understand how potent dopamine is to your sense of reward... so I feel like life is pretty littered with moments of dopamine rushes from any accomplishment.

After all, your brain's reward system doesn't distinguish between virtual items and tangible accomplishments.

Thankfully our brains are good at distinguishing between judgmental douches and the general populace.

Their opinions only matter to you if you have internalized the same value system. Getting called a noob for not having Ridill shouldn't matter to you unless you actually think 1) being a noob is bad and 2) not having a Ridill makes you a noob.

[Gredival]

The average player never got to fight a King. The fights mostly weren't that incredibly complex or difficult, it was artificial difficulty in the form of the limitations you clamor for. With a few tries the average player could have done it, they managed it in most other forms of content in the day. We had some complete retards with us, in the stun order, when they'd land 1/3 of their stuns, and we'd still manage Cerberus clears, so only reason Kings were that special is because you simply didn't get to fight them. Which, again, may be a fun game for you, but is dumb shit for most everyone else, thus bad for the overall game.

You clipped everything else out to try say the reason why is they never got to claim, but the parts you omitted specifically talk about such players wiping to Fafnir.

You can recover from a missed Gates of Hades stun, especially with a strong alliance made of HNMLS players. Average players would not be able to.

Average players may flail Faf.

Average players might bring a lot of melees who wouldn't level support jobs to get into HNMLS, thus resulting in a lot of TP feed.

Average players might not be able to handle healing through Hurricane Wing spam.

Average players might declaim Faf by disengaging instead of turning when trying to sleep Faf.

Average players may rage Faf.

[Kanriel]

You clipped everything else out to try say the reason why is they never got to claim, but the parts you omitted specifically talk about such players wiping to Fafnir.

You can recover from a missed Gates of Hades stun, especially with a strong alliance made of HNMLS players. Average players would not be able to.

Average players may flail Faf.

Average players might bring a lot of melees who wouldn't level support jobs to get into HNMLS, thus resulting in a lot of TP feed.

Average players might not be able to handle healing through Hurricane Wing spam.

Average players might declaim Faf by disengaging instead of turning when trying to sleep Faf.

Average players may rage Faf.

Pretty much every single one of those mistakes wouldn't happen after 2-3 runs. Rage Faf could happen, for sure, but that wasn't even true "classic" XI.

[D44kpunk]

Pretty much every single one of those mistakes wouldn't happen after 2-3 runs. Rage Faf could happen, for sure, but that wasn't even true "classic" XI.

Personally classic XI for me is not the release of 75 cap, this discussion has been had many a time in this thread though so I feel like you're bringing it up for no reason.

I was there, on your server camping HNMs while you were not. Seasoned linkshells would occasionally wipe even without being MPKed or otherwise.

Shout linkshells would come up and wipe all the time too obviously.

[Kanriel]

Personally classic XI for me is not the release of 75 cap, this discussion has been had many a time in this thread though so I feel like you're bringing it up for no reason.

I was there, on your server camping HNMs while you were not. Seasoned linkshells would occasionally wipe even without being MPKed or otherwise.

Shout linkshells would come up and wipe all the time too obviously.

Usually they'd wipe because they were missing key players, because not everyone could make random HNM pops. If it was a planned event, that's a totally different scenario. YC beat Fafnir first time. Wasn't the worst LS, but certainly wasn't top tier either. The issue with Fafhogg was claiming 99%, fighting it maybe 1%. But then you had to factor in zone lag at minimum to making the fight difficult, even if the other LS's weren't trying to take it from you (which Shiva actually accounted for and had a /random system in place for one LS to stay and all but one of every other LS left, but your LS made a point to not care about that)