FFXI Classic Thread

[Gredival]

There has been rarity all thru each era of XI. Voidwatch had item drop rates less than 1%, Omen had drop rates less than 1% and most failed the bosses constantly. Odyssey win rate is the lowest its ever been, very few %'age of players have cleared the highest tiers for augmented gear. Every single era in XIs life has had rarity and ways to stand out in town...

1% drop rate with multiple independent bites at the apple is different than 1% drop rate for a time-gated competitive claim singular spawn across the entire server.

[Draylo]

XI endgame in 75 era was hot garbage, complete pushover easy. I cant fathom how you can come something dull like Fafnir or Divine might to something like High tier battle Divine Might on release and Odyssey bosses. There is no contest, in context of FFXI "Difficulty" they do not compare whatsoever. Master trial fights took literally 40m+ on release to clear.
XI 75 era consisted of melee burns towards the end when we figured everything out and rotated brds/cors. Either that or timed thundaga from BLMs.

[Draylo]

1% drop rate with multiple independent bites at the apple is different than 1% drop rate for a time-gated competitive claim singular spawn across the entire server.

Omen was time gated from day1, it wasn't competitive claim but why is that so important? There were so many ways to be competitive and not be limited to a world spawn that was claimed only by bots.

[Gredival]

Irrelevant. They could have continued to progress with how they designed end game content without getting rid of the structure of end game content.

The important part was the exclusionary mechanism of HNM spawns. Artificial rarity is good. Forced competition over limited drops is good.

Omen was time gated from day1, it wasn't competitive claim but why is that so important? There were so many ways to be competitive and not be limited to a world spawn that was claimed only by bots.

1. Time gates are irrelevant if group success doesn't impede other group's success.

2. Because there should be winners and losers. Because top items should be a limited resource.

3. You're wrong about how much impact botting had, but not surprising since you probably had 0 HNM experience and used botting to justify being an irrelevant nobody until Ito fucked up the game.

[Draylo]

They didn't get rid of the overall design, in fact they doubled down on it and literally copy pasted previous events and gave them a new coat of paint. Literally every single content in XIs life has been replicated and refined EXCEPT HNM world spawn. The reasoning for that is because its a terrible system, nobody liked it except an extreme fringe of players (who used or benefited from said bots.) They did replicate HNMs via the battles, every single one was revamped and made harder than original fights in terms of mechanics.

1. Time gates are irrelevant if group success doesn't impede other group's success.

2. Because there should be winners and losers. Because top items should be a limited resource.

3. You're wrong about how much impact botting had, but not surprising since you probably had 0 HNM experience and used botting to justify being an irrelevant nobody until Ito fucked up the game.

FFXI is not a PvP game, so your opinion is just factually wrong. The vast majority of players disagree with you across every era.

I actually had quite a bit of HNM experience, I was even in an HNM shell ran by some old BG heads. I found it incredibly stupid, I even remember someone crying because they couldn't lot on Heralds Gaiters. It was toxic and most important of all, boring. Those days they had more than 18 and rotated dead people out, it was complete trash content lol. IDK why you think I never did HNM, I am the biggest fan of this game and have done EVERY SINGLE CONTENT ever created, literally. Do I need to show you pics HNM camping? I have some on my photobucket I think lol

[Fondue]

Gred is simply insane

[Rhyis.]

We need a umadness poll. Draylo vs. Gred over all things ffxi private and retail.

you did this

[Zealot]

Gred's philosophy is pretty simple; it's not enough that I succeed, you must fail. Everything about his take on FFXI can be understood going from there.

[Demosthenes]

Solid gear had marginal improvement on returns. All it showed was that you were great at following directions with your linkshell. The average tank, knew how to tank where it a actually mattered, where you spent the most time doing something IE exp.

[Gredival]

Literally every single content in XIs life has been replicated and refined EXCEPT HNM world spawn.

But that was the important part.

The reasoning for that is because its a terrible system, nobody liked it except an extreme fringe of players (who used or benefited from said bots.)

The vast majority of players disagree with you across every era.

No people disliked it because it was exclusionary. Insofar as people are self-interested, they will always favor the system that maximizes their own benefit as the primary goal.

What is good for an ecosystem as a whole is completely different from what is good for an individual player (or any collective of them).

FFXI is not a PvP game, so your opinion is just factually wrong.

And this has nothing to do with PvP.

This is about structuring the PvE element of the game to pit players against each other antagonistically. Guild based PvE competition over limited resources is the ideal for MMOs, and XI HNMs actually did it best.

[Draylo]

He just seems to be fixated on the part of being able to actively block others from "content." It really makes no sense overall. You can be for competition, and there are various different forms of that for sure. FFXI just isn't a PVP game and never was, literally only a handful of Final Fantasy games contain PVP aspects and its mostly racing or "competitive spirit" type games like scoreboards. I have no idea why he thinks it should have been some kind of requirement for all XI content going forward. Even WoW would be a better fit, cant you just kill people on PVP servers?

[Draylo]

But that was the important part.




No people disliked it because it was exclusionary. Insofar as people are self-interested, they will always favor the system that maximizes their own benefit as the primary goal.

What is good for an ecosystem as a whole is completely different from what is good for an individual player (or any collective of them).



And this has nothing to do with PvP.

This is about structuring the PvE element of the game to pit players against each other antagonistically. Guild based PvE competition over limited resources is the ideal for MMOs, and XI did it best.

That isn't a sustainable model for Final Fantasy games though, literally none of them are like that by design. Wouldn't it be in the companies best interest, monetary wise, to follow the overall trend set by their games? Especially given the large public outcry to kill "content" like HNMs. It was just inevitable. So do you play on private servers then that have HNM camping?

[Ksandra]

yea and they are all gonna quit and you know it.

Why would I care if they quit? I’m just as likely to quit sooner or later. Not everyone has the mindset to play one game only for 20+ years. But they can still enjoy it for the time they are playing.

you did this

I have regrets.

[Gredival]

75 cap HNM-focused XI was the best MMO because it functioned as a true sandbox world where everyone had the same goal (progression of their characters) and social relationships within the game -- cooperative or antagonistic -- were all defined by that goal. We assisted our allies (linkshell) in their progression, and they assist us in our progression, against outsiders (other linkshells).

The whole point of drop rates not being 100% is that gear is not a reward merely for completion of content. Once you accept this, it is a minor extension to then accept that the goal should not be for everyone to get everything. It should be for people's gear to be a reflection of their value as a player.

HNMs were the ideal system to test that value because world spawns functioned as both a test of skill (killing the mob, or being worthy to be in a linkshell that could kill the mob) and a test of effort (the groups that camped most consistently with the most people got the most claims and the most chances for gear).

That isn't to say the system was perfect. For instance, I have always been against the sale of items to people outside a linkshell because selling items for gil circumvented the whole point. I also think SE should have been much stricter and inventive in enforcing anti-botting instead of doing stupid shit like going after Windower users.

That isn't a sustainable model for Final Fantasy games though, literally none of them are like that by design. Wouldn't it be in the companies best interest, monetary wise, to follow the overall trend set by their games? Especially given the large public outcry to kill "content" like HNMs. It was just inevitable. So do you play on private servers then that have HNM camping?

The most profitable game, or the most sustainable game, isn't necessarily the best game either. Under that metric, gacha games are the best.

But this is the exact reason XI is the best MMO that there will ever be, precisely because as you've pointed out, this is not profitable or sustainable. We can't ever go back to the MMO golden age because the market is simply not the same, and it never will be. Profitability and mass appeal are a Pandora's box that means the level of investment necessary to make a game like XI, and the lack of choice that forced people to play XI over easier alternatives, will never occur again.

[Draylo]

Edit: gdi my mistake. Been a long time since I’ve accidentally deleted someone’s’ post. -Ksandra

[Draylo]

75 cap HNM-focused XI was the best MMO because it functioned as a true sandbox world where everyone had the same goal (progression of their characters) and social relationships within the game -- cooperative or antagonistic -- were all defined by that goal. We assisted our allies (linkshell) in their progression, and they assist us in our progression, against outsiders (other linkshells).

The whole point of drop rates not being 100% is that gear is not a reward merely for completion of content. Once you accept this, it is a minor extension to then accept that the goal should not be for everyone to get everything. It should be for people's gear to be a reflection of their value as a player.

HNMs were the ideal system to test that value because world spawns functioned as both a test of skill (killing the mob, or being worthy to be in a linkshell that could kill the mob) and a test of effort (the groups that camped most consistently with the most people got the most claims and the most chances for gear).

That isn't to say the system was perfect. For instance, I have always been against the sale of items to people outside a linkshell because selling items for gil circumvented the whole point. I also think SE should have been much stricter and inventive in enforcing anti-botting instead of doing stupid shit like going after Windower users.



The most profitable game, or the most sustainable game, isn't necessarily the best game either. Under that metric, gacha games are the best.

But this is the exact reason XI is the best MMO that there will ever be, precisely because as you've pointed out, this is not profitable or sustainable. We can't ever go back to the MMO golden age because the market is simply not the same, and it never will be. Profitability and mass appeal are a Pandora's box that means the level of investment necessary to make a game like XI, and the lack of choice that forced people to play XI over easier alternatives, will never occur again.

Yes it was magic lightning in a bottle, I can agree with you there. I was just saying from SEs point of view, it made sense to change it.

That is why it will never be able to be replicated, no matter what these people hosting these p servers think. I agree that the most profitable or sustainable game isn't always the best, thats why I feel negatively towards XIV and whats its done. I think you should direct your annoyance towards them, they did more harm than anything XI post abyssea.

[Ksandra]

Sorry Draylo, I deleted your post on accident and it’s been so long since I’ve done that I don’t remember how to bring it back.

This was my response:

I was also curious why this private server seems to have done that for you and not the many that came before.

Because this is the only private server I’ve played.

[Gredival]

It would have been better for XI to die as it was, than for Ito to desecrate it like he did.

[Rhyis.]

mods can't help modding even in spam. rough times

[Ksandra]

mods can't help modding even in spam. rough times

Man I don’t even know how I did it. Used to happen because the reply is next to the edit button for me, but somehow I edited the one I wasn’t even replying to.