Muh Guns, Too

[vagus]

Canada has guns, mental health issues and religion.
And yet, a lot less mass school shootings.

The gun culture is ingrained in the American way of life. Unless that changes, there needs to be MORE gun control. Will this stop murders? No, because a majority of killings are from hand guns. However, stricter rules on obtaining high capacity rounds & assault weapons is a start.

In British Columbia, guns must be stored away from the bullets. Police have the right to enter your home and check on gun safety if there are reports of poor gun control. A 2 day course is required, which includes a back ground check. Most gun owners have zero issues with these laws.


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[Tymon]

I genuinely do not believe it's "gun culture" to blame for these high profile shootings. It's simply the ease of access.

The people committing these atrocities are not interested in gun culture. Maybe a very tiny minority of them were "gun nuts" but that's entirely a side effect. It's not the firearms culture that radicalized them. They all had and have ulterior motives, whatever they ended up being. The central similarity is that in a moment of derangement they either already had access to these weapons or were able to get them unabetted.

And to your point, the vast majority of "gun nuts" in the US wouldn't have any issue with those laws either, since they'd automatically qualify. I don't know any firearms enthusiasts that aren't heavily licensed. Way more than any kind of regulation would require.

End point being, gun regulation is the answer, because the bad actors that are going postal and committing these crimes are almost universally doing so right after getting a stockpile. It's exactly the reason the laws should exist.

[vagus]

Gun culture has prevented laws from changing.


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[Tymon]

Disagree. The modern NRA lobby has. We fairly easily passed the automatic firearms ban in the '90s.

What I fundamentally disagree with is the notion that the two are fundamentally joined at the hip.

I don't tie partisan lobbying nonsense to anything even remotely close to the pulse of the nation on such a large scale issue. Especially when the polls don't back it up.

If the NRA and its fundraising arm (and arms in the coffers of so many politicians) didn't exist then there is zero doubt in my mind we would have comprehensive gun regulation passed for quite a while now. Probably during Bush 43.

[archibaldcrane]

I genuinely do not believe it's "gun culture" to blame for these high profile shootings. It's simply the ease of access.

The people committing these atrocities are not interested in gun culture. Maybe a very tiny minority of them were "gun nuts" but that's entirely a side effect. It's not the firearms culture that radicalized them. They all had and have ulterior motives, whatever they ended up being. The central similarity is that in a moment of derangement they either already had access to these weapons or were able to get them unabetted.

And to your point, the vast majority of "gun nuts" in the US wouldn't have any issue with those laws either, since they'd automatically qualify. I don't know any firearms enthusiasts that aren't heavily licensed. Way more than any kind of regulation would require.

End point being, gun regulation is the answer, because the bad actors that are going postal and committing these crimes are almost universally doing so right after getting a stockpile. It's exactly the reason the laws should exist.

The high score holder was a gun culture guy tho

[archibaldcrane]

"Moments later, police believe a third man came and shot the alleged robber again, then left."

I'm sorry but lol

https://twitter.com/emzorbit/status/...uNHZeVXzQ&s=19

[Tymon]

The high score holder was a gun culture guy tho

Yeah that's why I didn't say all.

Paddock is kind of an enigma. We still genuinely have no idea what his motive was.

I'm not denying that American gun culture isn't toxic at all. Just that it's far from the primary factor in this stuff.

[Tymon]

"Moments later, police believe a third man came and shot the alleged robber again, then left."

I'm sorry but lol

https://twitter.com/emzorbit/status/...uNHZeVXzQ&s=19

I was actually sort of on scene for this afterwards, I was on route back home from a vacation trip and got stuck in the police blockage.

[Cyn]

Gun laws become more and more lax to the point of aggressive deregulation over the course of 40 years, all of which corresponds to rise in gun violence, but it's those darn atheists.

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But that's not true at all. Throughout the entire 20th century, gun restrictions slowly increased. Until 1986 you could buy a machine gun as easily as a bolt action rifle with a 14" barrel. Gun laws haven't been loosened federally at all, in fact. Guns are less available than they were prior to rampage shootings.




Aside from the obvious fact that talk of banning guns on a federal level is almost political suicide, the idea that banning things like 30 round rifle magazines and dumb shit like bayonet lugs and foregrips will somehow put a significant dent in gun violence is fucking bonkers. The vast majority of gun violence in this country comes from handguns, and support for banning or adding additional regulation to them is extremely low. The most dangerous weapon to have is one that nobody knows about until it's too late, so if you guys think banning AR-15s will make school shootings less lethal, I have really bad news for you.

There are so many things that can be done to tighten regulations on firearms in a realistic way, but until the Dems stop screaming about bans after every shooting, they'll never even be considered. Fuck, the ATF has basically everything but my DNA on file, and I'm fine with expanded NICS and red flag laws, even reasonable waiting periods.

[Zealot]

Categorically untrue. Not only was there a ban on ownership of the weapons which have been used in the majority of mass shootings up until 2003, but it's been a race to the bottom at the state level for 2 decades now to loosen restrictions as much as possible.

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[Cyn]

Oh, 40 years turned into 2 decades and now we're only talking about state regulations that can literally only be tighter than federal regulations?

[Zealot]

Also why is "handgun violence is way worse!" always a go-to in these conversations about stopping mass shootings using rifles?

"Yeah, those explosions are doing a lot of damage, but not as much as the constantly-burning fire, so let's do nothing about either."

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[Zealot]

Oh, 40 years turned into 2 decades and now we're only talking about state regulations that can literally only be tighter than federal regulations?

I never said anything about federal regulations brother, that was all you. And also, incorrect, Jesus Christ. The federal government might be able to use its powers to enact restrictions on the availability of certain firearms, and your contention that they have only made fewer guns available since the machine gun ban (which has major loopholes in and of itself) is completely false. States control licensing, regulation, permitting, and also the complete lack thereof where applicable.

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[Tymon]

Also why is "handgun violence is way worse!" always a go-to in these conversations about stopping mass shootings using rifles?

"Yeah, those explosions are doing a lot of damage, but not as much as the constantly-burning fire, so let's do nothing about either."

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Racism

[Cyn]

Also why is "handgun violence is way worse!" always a go-to in these conversations about stopping mass shootings using rifles?

"Yeah, those explosions are doing a lot of damage, but not as much as the constantly-burning fire, so let's do nothing about either."

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Because it's an extremely valid argument. Handgun violence is massively more prevalent, and there's absolutely no reason to believe that people won't just use those for mass shootings if you by some miracle successfully ban and remove rifles.

I never said anything about federal regulations brother, that was all you. And also, incorrect, Jesus Christ. The federal government might be able to use its powers to enact restrictions on the availability of certain firearms, and your contention that they have only made fewer guns available since the machine gun ban (which has major loopholes in and of itself) is completely false. States control licensing, regulation, permitting, and also the complete lack thereof where applicable.

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And yet only a handful of states have made guns easier to get, and mostly in defiance of people calling for bans. Just like state laws in blue states have been restricting sales.

[Zealot]

A handful?? My dude there are 38 states with no waiting period to buy a gun.

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[Zealot]

Checking the latest in 2022, 26 states, so the majority, don't require a background check either.

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[Cyn]

How many states had set waiting periods and got rid of them though? My only real disagreement with you is your claim that gun laws have been rampantly loosened across the country for the past 40 years, because that's just not true. I'm personally fine with waiting periods.

NICS background checks is a federal law, doesn't matter if states require it or not. Obviously it has some pretty big gaps that need to be filled, like private sales and the default proceed, but most gun sales both online and in person have background checks.

[Zealot]

Roughly all starting in 1993, with a sharp drop-off in 1998 after the Brady bill no longer required it and pretty much every state which had been forced into it dropped them.

The 5-year period was supposed to be an "interim" period wherein states would set up their own background check system, and that just didn't happen.

[Koyangi]

Roughly all starting in 1993, with a sharp drop-off in 1998 after the Brady bill no longer required it and pretty much every state which had been forced into it dropped them.

The 5-year period was supposed to be an "interim" period wherein states would set up their own background check system, and that just didn't happen.

And this comes from the same ones who are about sTaTeS rIgHtS.