Muh Guns, Too

[Tyrath]

For comparison, chronic liver disease/cirrhosis also kill about 56k per year. If we had to choose between banning guns and regulating alcohol to try and prevent people from becoming alcoholics, which would we pick? If alcohol, why isn't it talked about at all?

Did I miss the part where my alcoholism fucks up someone else's liver?

[Rulke]

We did this, it was called prohibition. It worked out really well.

[kuronosan]

In fact, people use this argument with prohibition as a means of saying that we can't just ban guns. We can regulate, sure. We can make amendments too.

But there's a huge difference between why prohibition and gun control, specifically that it doesn't make sense to ban people from doing something that hurts themselves as long as you're able to have reasonable laws that protect other citizens from their irresponsible bullshit.

We don't have that with guns, which are infinitely more dangerous to public health than alcohol.

[Mrbeansman]

Nothing is ever going to change as long as we have this toxic gun culture. Like Alex Jones was 100% right when he said 1776 will happen again if you try to take away the guns l.

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[archibaldcrane]

There's laws against drunk driving and murder

We don't have that with guns, which are infinitely more dangerous to public health than alcohol.

Firearm murders in 2021 ~21k
DUI crashes killed ~12k

Is 2x = infinitely more dangerous?

[kuronosan]

Oh, we're using our made up arguments now. Got it.

Also the number of general alcohol-related deaths actually tops the 100s of thousands, so if you're just going to include "car accidents" your comparison is going to be grossly inaccurate and leaves the thought unclear as to why argue that specific point.

She Hulk controls her anger infinitely more than Bruce, but since you think infinity has to be a number when used qualitatively I guess she controls it 2.5x more often or something.

[NynJa]

Dudes here actually think a blanket ban on guns gonna do anything. Its actually laughable how naïve yall being.

You really think those illegally obtained firearms in possession by society's shitstains are gonna go "well damn, they banned guns, guess I gotta turn this piece in"?

[Anoat]

I don’t think you’d see much if any decrease in gun violence from places like organized crime, gang violence, armed robberies etc. But a blanket ban probably would stop a lot of teenage or young adult school/workplace shooters, people that just snap and go off, or crimes of passion and/or drunkenness.

[Andalusian girls]

nah you'd see a mass decrease in places like organized crime too. i don't think a gun ban is feasible and as a gun owner don't particularly want one, but if guns were truly banned and police began vacuuming em all up whenever they stopped/arrested/raided someone or something supply would plummet over time, become correspondingly more and more expensive and harder and harder to get one. i mean guns are presently so fuckin easy to get in this country they fuel violence in neighboring countries; hundreds of thousands flood into Mexico every year and thence further south. an ATF analysis found 70%(!) of all guns recovered at crime scenes in Mexico originated in the States.

that is to say even in a country like Mexico that is hollowed out by corruption and crime their restrictive firearms regulations are effective enough it is exponentially easier for organized crime to buy guns in another country and smuggle them back.

[kuronosan]

I don’t think you’d see much if any decrease in gun violence from places like organized crime, gang violence, armed robberies etc. But a blanket ban probably would stop a lot of teenage or young adult school/workplace shooters, people that just snap and go off, or crimes of passion and/or drunkenness.

I don't think an outright ban will do much, but neither will doing nothing.

If anything, doing nothing will do some fraction of infinity less.

[NynJa]

Gun control would be a great start. You have a record? You're on medication that literally keeps you sane? You lost your right to bear arms.

The problem would be enforcement of this gun control, down to the legal vendors. They need to make sure they're going through all those background checks and refusing sales to those unfit to bear arms. Cops also need to be held accountable when they get reports of potential mass-murderer's in the making. Wasnt there a recent shooting where a kid had a full ass manifesto, a violent history, and the cops just went "welp, he hasnt done anything THAAAAAAAAT bad, so we dont care"?

[Ksandra]

I don’t think you’d see much if any decrease in gun violence from places like organized crime, gang violence, armed robberies etc. But a blanket ban probably would stop a lot of teenage or young adult school/workplace shooters, people that just snap and go off, or crimes of passion and/or drunkenness.

I totally agree with you on this aspect:

I am really tired of gun arguments that only want all or nothing policies.

It’s ok to enact policies that only reduce mass shootings.

It’s ok to enact policies that only reduce gang shootings.

It is absolutely insane to me when someone presents a good policy to reduce school shootings and the backlash is “but gangs buy illegal guns!” Like why does it have to be both to be implemented? These are two very distinct situations, we don’t need all or nothing policies in order to reduce them.


Note: I am down for policies that help reduce gangs violence, and while some strategies overlap, it’s not like we can’t target issues in a specific manner.


With that being said, my two cents are Id like to see these things happening: (note I understand it’s probably unrealistic. This is a wish list)

1. Punish the owner of a gun along with the shooter. (Causes people to more likely lock their shit up if they know they could ge to to trouble if someone else gets them.)

2. Require an intensive training course for each type of gun you own. Require periodic retraining/retesting to keep gun.

3. Require periodic mental health check by a professional in order to keep weapon.

4. Put a ban on household weapons if anyone in the household fails a mental health check.

5. Pump a fuckton more money into schools for a. Mental health resources b. Job/career paths and mentorships for disadvantaged youth

[Tymon]

A truly massive, overwhelming percentage of illegal gun trade at least where I live is because there are zero regulations on guns in vehicles. Totally fine to just leave guns unlocked in cars wherever, whenever, for however long.

Directly correlates to a truly massive increase in vehicle break ins. Kids will hit 30-40 cars at once, entire multiple strip centers (cops do not respond to these calls) only looking for guns. People will have their windows smashed and $100s of stuff left completely untouched. But the guns always get taken.

If you made it completely illegal to leave a firearm anywhere but either on your person or, as I already said, in your home (and locked in a safe when away for any significant length of time) you would see an incredible drop in circulation here. The only people legitimately buying guns are either completely normal law abiding citizens, or lunatics that go on spree killings. Which is of course terrible, but they represent a tiny percentage of overall gun violence, and incidents like that are WAY easier to come up with common sense regulation to prevent.

[Tymon]

Even if you didn't put in any laws for locking guns up at home you'd still see a huge difference. Kids trying to get clout in their gang are not going to be even remotely as willing to break into a potentially occupied house with alarms, gun wielding homeowners, etc. vs a car that is unoccupied and presents a literal 15 second smash and grab opportunity.

Also, a majority of burglaries result in prosecution. Almost zero car break ins do.

[Emphasis]

More deterrents and regulations are duly necessary. This guy has been known and reported to fire off rounds in front of his house apparently. Nothing was ever done about it, and I don't expect Texas to be a leader in taking the initiative either.

The biggest blockade is getting conservatives to collectively make progress in passing said laws and deterrents, but they've clearly expressed their inability to care about doing anything to help.

[thetruepandagod]

We don't have that with guns, which are infinitely more dangerous to public health than alcohol.

but statistically this isnt true :O

[kuronosan]

but statistically this isnt true :O

About 350 people per day on average die from chronic complications from alcohol use. About 320 per day are victims of gun violence, and about 30-35% of those people die quite acutely. Of those that survive, most of them will either have a physical limitation, PTSD, both, or struggle with anxiety and depression their entire life. Some of them will go on to drink alcohol. Of those that drink and are depressed, they're pretty high risk for suicide (which if by gun, account for about 60% of gun related deaths).

The curve with shooting incidents is not going down. Feel free to look at the gun violence archives for more data.

Drunk drivers account for about 13,000 of deaths related to alcohol every year. As of today, guns account for almost 14,000 in four months. And while about half of those are related to suicide, more guns and looser laws mean easier access means deaths either way will continue to increase.

I'm aware alcohol is a problem, but still fourth behind smoking, obesity, heart disease, and... Get this. Alcohol isn't directly killing children in schools because children can't go to their parent's liquor cabinet and pour alcohol on their classmates from 20 feet away and kill 20 of them within minutes while police just stare.

So, I mean, you want to keep using other medical illnesses as a strawman for a pretty clear problem you do you. You're not the one who has to listen to this almost every day from people who've survived it.

[Tymon]

I was going to make a janitor joke, but then realized an even darker one is when you realize that a school janitor would also fit your last sentence just as well.

[Mrbeansman]

Holding people accountable when their guns fall into the wrong hands and then are used in attrocities would likely be a huge step that would likey survive the various legal battles.

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[Cyn]

Only if it was through some negligence of the gun owner.