Spicy's plan for utopia

[Andalusian girls]

from each thread according to its ability, to each thread according to its needs

[NynJa]

This thread is now about Odyssey fodder rightfully being called trash mobs.

I'm gonna go update the bg-wiki Odyssey page to reflect this change per SE's officially used term.

[Andalusian girls]

(except for in Norway where they have cleverly used social wealth funds to put the majority of the means of production into the hands of the democratically controlled state)

we have had this debate many times before nay. the state in Norway controls the majority of the nation's wealth because of their petroeuros diversification, but that does not translate to the majority of the means of production. only 35% of stock market capitalization is wholly or partially in government hands, and 70% of Norwegian workers work in the private sector. and i find it a distortion of reality to claim the national hedgefund buying a share in, say, a Saudi wind turbine firm, indicates the society is inherently socialist when more than 2/3rds of Norwegian workers live their daily lives by the vicissitudes of the market, not fundamentally different from their counterparts in Sweden or Germany or the Netherlands.

i will say on the sliding scale of mixed economies Norway is clearly more socialist than most, and perhaps it is most important to remember these are not dichotomies. America is a mixed economy. Singapore is a mixed economy. Sweden is a mixed economy, and is in many ways more nurturing to capitalism than many states that would decry it for being socialist. much like autism, we are talking about a spectrum.

often taxonomies become inhibitory rather than descriptive, there is not some magic threshold on the slider where a nation stops being capitalist and starts being socialist. as such a description of 'Norway is socialist!' is quite reductive, and one would prefer the less pithy but more accurate, 'the majority of wealth in Norway is controlled by the government, and they are active players in the private sector, but roughly 60-70% of the market is operated by private hands.'

[Koyangi]

This thread is now about Odyssey fodder rightfully being called trash mobs.

I'm gonna go update the bg-wiki Odyssey page to reflect this change per SE's officially used term.

I'm sure everything will sortie itself out.

[Spicyryan]

I would care more if spicy had any actual theory behind what is and isn't socialism beyond what is and isn't sufficiently utopian for him.

I have had no respect for the thread from the get go because its intentions, and using the loaded term "utopia" is obnoxious.

Couldn't care less if this shit thread ended this very moment or not. Although, I did appreciate AGs posts just now. Zealot in this thread compared to ones involving the Democrats was also a side bonus.

This thread is now about Odyssey fodder rightfully being called trash mobs.

I'm gonna go update the bg-wiki Odyssey page to reflect this change per SE's officially used term.

Not even good trolling.

[NynJa]

you dont like trash mobs because youre a trash poster hahahaha gottem

[Andalusian girls]

ladies and gentlemen

we got 'im

[Spicyryan]

you dont like trash mobs because youre a trash poster hahahaha gottem

Then trash I am, trash I shall be, and trash shall I remain. I'd imagine I am about as enjoyable as you are to me. So, enjoy me all the same.

[Uzor]

we have had this debate many times before nay. the state in Norway controls the majority of the nation's wealth because of their petroeuros diversification, but that does not translate to the majority of the means of production. only 35% of stock market capitalization is wholly or partially in government hands, and 70% of Norwegian workers work in the private sector. and i find it a distortion of reality to claim the national hedgefund buying a share in, say, a Saudi wind turbine firm, indicates the society is inherently socialist when more than 2/3rds of Norwegian workers live their daily lives by the vicissitudes of the market, not fundamentally different from their counterparts in Sweden or Germany or the Netherlands.

i will say on the sliding scale of mixed economies Norway is clearly more socialist than most, and perhaps it is most important to remember these are not dichotomies. America is a mixed economy. Singapore is a mixed economy. Sweden is a mixed economy, and is in many ways more nurturing to capitalism than many states that would decry it for being socialist. much like autism, we are talking about a spectrum.

often taxonomies become inhibitory rather than descriptive, there is not some magic threshold on the slider where a nation stops being capitalist and starts being socialist. as such a description of 'Norway is socialist!' is quite reductive, and one would prefer the less pithy but more accurate, 'the majority of wealth in Norway is controlled by the government, and they are active players in the private sector, but roughly 60-70% of the market is operated by private hands.'

As an addition to this, Norway actually has a law that states that their oil fund can not be used to invest in domestic companies. Reason being that if Norway ever hits a rough spot, the oil fund will still (hopefully) be going strong, making their overall economy more resilient.

Of course, if the entire world goes to shit, so would the oil fund. But odds are Norway would be fucked if the entire world goes to shit either way. At the time of writing, the entirety of Norway's oil fund is worth 1,119,365,505,950 USD, so quite a lot of money for a nation of a mere 5,4 million.

They're also transparent in exactly what they invest in: https://www.nbim.no/no/

It is true that the majority of the wealth is held by the government, but that's because when they discovered their oil, they didn't want to head in the direction a lot of other countries went when they found oil, so they made a decision that all natural resources discovered in Norway would belong to the government (eg. the people) as a whole, rather than private companies that would hoard the wealth for themselves. The government can issue licenses to private companies, but even then I believe 50% of the profits from natural resources has to be shared with the government to be reinvested into the oil fund. The oil fund is then (as mentioned earlier) invested into companies abroad, as well as for various environmental incentives etc. to improve Norway. It's why Norway is the #1 country per capita of Tesla owners, as the government offers incentives for people to purchase electric vehicles.

Which, you know, can be seen as ironic that the government wants people to drive electir cars despite having a lot of oil.

[Andalusian girls]

ye it's pretty ridiculous when you put it into context. it is the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world, owning roughly 1.5% of the world's shares. all shares, all publicly traded companies, all the world. now worth roughly $250,000 per Norwegian. a case study of exceptional government management, Norway has a whole lot of oil but less than say Russia or Saudi Arabia or Venezuela who have not utilized their oil revenues nearly so productively. and as you say they do it with admirable transparency, and with the exclusion of investment in all companies they deem morally objectionable.

[Uzor]

Yeah, they're our rich baby brother. Those fuckers constantly threaten to purchase Sweden

They could probably afford it, if they wanted it.

[Spicyryan]

Yeah, they're our rich baby brother. Those fuckers constantly threaten to purchase Sweden

They could probably afford it, if they wanted it.

They should purchase Greenland and run it less like shit.

[Gredival]

from each thread according to its ability, to each thread according to its needs

Just like real communism, this is supremely unfair given the intellectual gap

[Spicyryan]

Just like real communism, this is supremely unfair given the intellectual gap

I generally want to assume a lot of the attitude around here is some ancient BG humor, ala-Day. However, it is seems you truly are that fucking pompous.

[Mrbeansman]

I generally want to assume a lot of the attitude around here is some ancient BG humor, ala-Day. However, it is seems you truly are that fucking pompous.

That's rich coming from you.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[Spicyryan]

That's rich coming from you.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Not everyone metaphorically flails about in emotion like a confused hamster on a wheel when they try exercise compassion like you do.

There is a clear difference between "the slave trade was worth it, kill a hundred million to keep the current order because it benefits me" and "struggle already kills, and more will die in struggle to obtain a better tomorrow either way." Then again, nothing I say will sway whatever your "maybe in a million years we will incrementally get some healthcare if we vote hard enough, and I will simply blame others until then in an endless loop, but if I didn't fall into the right niche of the ACA I would be singing an entirely different tune. protect my status quo" world you are in.

So, in one world you create a system where the people don't even have control over clean air and water because its spoiled or simply taken to generate private wealth with a desire to monopolize it. Then those privileged enough try to have it both ways. Generally with hollow rhetoric clearly in conflict of the powerful interest in your desired system and/or by simply taking it from another in some far off place. That, and suppressing the idea that maybe such an important thing shouldn't be left in the hands of such people.

In the other world the people killed others to gain the ability to better protect the water and air because it is essential to society, and punish anyone who tries to profit off it. They also nationalized all of the economy from these private parties and redistributed the results of the wealth generated by the collective and stolen by said private parties. Did they kill those people? You betcha they did. Was it worth it? Absolutely.

[Tymon]

You insinuate from literally the second sentence in that post that people are on here saying that the slave trade was worth it. Cite a source for that. It's one hell of a reach.

Actually the entire thing is wild hyperbole, who am I trying to fool here.

[Spicyryan]

You insinuate from literally the second sentence in that post that people are on here saying that the slave trade was worth it. Cite a source for that. It's one hell of a reach.

Actually the entire thing is wild hyperbole, who am I trying to fool here.

No it's a greater good measured in lives.

Sacrifice one million to save one million plus one.

Every. Time.

The net negative utility from America and Europe's violence against the natives they colonized and the Atlantic Slave Trade pales in comparison to the good achieved by the liberal international order built on their desecrated graves.

I have never once denied the system is inherently violent, only that the current system is net less violent than the mostly probable alternative.

[Jaybar]

Gred in the same breath also thinks not everyone deserves to vote, meaning clearly some individuals are more important to a collective society than others. So the whole 1mil to save 1mil+1 comes off a little contradictory.

I'm not gonna find the receipts for that quote, though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[NynJa]

What do you expect from Kevin Chang tho?