Two Term Celebrity Politician - JD Vance Missing Persons Coldcase

[Byrthnoth]

What if we ignored all of that and papered over our problems using H1B visas because the only thing that matters is next quarter?

Now I'm on board

[kuronosan]

Now you get it

[Byrthnoth]

The wasted human potential in the US is criminal. I went to a private school with a double digit number of kids in the same graduation year, most of whom had been there since they were 6. As that implies, the primary filter for entrance was wealth, and the school did cost money. That said, our dumbest football player finished college and is a successful dentist now. I wouldn't have trusted this guy to do long division in high school. AFAIK everyone makes low-to-mid six figures (if they ever had to work). Our year was not unusual for that school. College graduation rates were basically 100%.

I have spent some time wondering what makes it a particularly good school and basically come to the conclusion that it is all just the wealth filter. Any kid that could go to that school had a pretty normcore home life. They are not insecure about food or housing or safety. At least one parent is around to teach them stuff (generally a super educated mother). They were expected to go to college and probably their families would cover it. Lunch was included at school.

If any random class of rich kids can all become "productive members of society", then we waste a phenomenal amount of potential each year by not properly caring for the nation's kids. I mean, to the point here, I think 5% of my year are software engineers.

[Meresgi]

A bit late on this whole discussion, but a lot of the pushback I've seen isn't so much against drawing the best and brightest from other countries, but the justification used: That there aren't enough computer science/engineering students in the U.S., thus we need more H1Bs.

Been a while since I've pored over the data (maybe someone here has), but isn't it a combination of things? Like yes, there's a shortage (though perhaps not as pronounced, as say, in healthcare) in some areas, but there's also a lot of people (at least in CA and other areas) all trying to go for the big companies. Or in some cases, CS grads maybe not willing to relocate out of their hometowns (I've known of a few here -- could easily snag a FAANG job, fine where they're at making decent enough, but not crazy money).

I also suspect there are a few on this board that can speak to 'being the smart kid' not being something that's really valued/getting shit for it (to an extent). Also personally, my annoyance with some of the discussion around it is that it seems like another justification not to invest in a large scale pipeline at home -- though it does happen in certain pockets.

The major issue isn't there aren't enough CS/Computer types to field or the talent isn't there. There's tons of talent out there...but they don't want to work for pennies and have to put in 60+hrs a week with 0 WFH and no vacation or anything else. Musk and others want H1B's the same way farmers want immigrant labor on their fields. They can pay them shit, use them and abuse them and they can't do a damn thing because they hold all the cards.

I have spent some time wondering what makes it a particularly good school and basically come to the conclusion that it is all just the wealth filter. Any kid that could go to that school had a pretty normcore home life. They are not insecure about food or housing or safety. At least one parent is around to teach them stuff (generally a super educated mother). They were expected to go to college and probably their families would cover it. Lunch was included at school.

If any random class of rich kids can all become "productive members of society", then we waste a phenomenal amount of potential each year by not properly caring for the nation's kids. I mean, to the point here, I think 5% of my year are software engineers.

Most of these "high end" schools are just nepotism/networking (which I mean is also a major thing needed for sure) but the education isn't that much better then other schools. Look at SUNY schools vs "200k a year loans bebe!" schools. Granted most are not paying that, they're getting full scholarships or mommy and daddy are alumni. That said, those kids can afford to focus 100% on their education and usually come from the product of a home where both parents pushed them very hard...and a good chunk of them are always on the breaking point too. Ex gf tutored math in the DMV area, so many kids freaking out because if they didn't get a 4.0 and instead go a 3.8/9 their life was over. If you're not worrying about rent, food, and working a side job or two while trying to get classes done then you're gonna usually end up with better prospects (cuz you'll also be doing extra curricular stuff with people in your field and that ends up resulting in more nepo hires down the line).

I worked my fucking ass off when I went back to school (1st time I just goofed off/real life tragedies so 2nd time I was much more involved in it) and still I wouldn't be where I am right now had I not made friends with the faculty, done some hacking competitions and then had one of the faculty bring up my name to their manager and get me in where I am.

[Ayn]

"Oops DEI" made me chuckle. Can't promise I won't let that one drop at work. Thanks for the laugh, Byr.

Meresgi stated what I was trying to more eloquently (considering I'm near the epicenter of it all, it tracks). Interestingly enough I went in wanting to do CS, but got steered away from it. That's a boring story for never, and life worked out just fine for me. When I caught up with friends after college one was surprised saying first "could've sworn that's what you would've done" then later went "eh you'd have probably lost your shit with the dumb people I deal with".

Agreed on the networking bit; that's the main thing I try to emphasize to students now. Not that being solid/academics isn't important, but that the bigger difference with the schools they're trying to get into is the networking/alumni/internship connections more than anything else -- essentially 'what circle of people you put yourself around'.

I've also met the ones that freak out about not getting the 4.0. Sad part is that's often the first time they've experienced 'failure', so their coping strategies for such aren't as great, as opposed to say, the person who experienced that setback earlier. It's kinda sad to watch, really.

[kuronosan]

Anyone that thinks Elon is pushing for H1B reform because he is for the working immigrant is delusional. Dude definitely wants to bring in cheap workers rather than invest in America.

[Meresgi]

Agreed on the networking bit; that's the main thing I try to emphasize to students now. Not that being solid/academics isn't important, but that the bigger difference with the schools they're trying to get into is the networking/alumni/internship connections more than anything else -- essentially 'what circle of people you put yourself around'.

I've also met the ones that freak out about not getting the 4.0. Sad part is that's often the first time they've experienced 'failure', so their coping strategies for such aren't as great, as opposed to say, the person who experienced that setback earlier. It's kinda sad to watch, really.

Yeah when I was teaching I had my midterm/final all open book and take home, because I tried to drill into my students the need to be able to look things up and figure things out through critical thinking. I didn't want them just brain dumping linux commands back to me or something else, hell I have to look up commands every damn day sometimes because it's use or lose.

It's wild that some of these kids who have never experienced failure also come from families where failing would be no big deal because they have such a huge safety net it wouldn't matter too much, unlike when you're barely making it by a single failure means you're now on food stamps and paying debt the rest of your life while eating kraft.

[Ayn]

Yeah when I was teaching I had my midterm/final all open book and take home, because I tried to drill into my students the need to be able to look things up and figure things out through critical thinking. I didn't want them just brain dumping linux commands back to me or something else, hell I have to look up commands every damn day sometimes because it's use or lose.

It's wild that some of these kids who have never experienced failure also come from families where failing would be no big deal because they have such a huge safety net it wouldn't matter too much, unlike when you're barely making it by a single failure means you're now on food stamps and paying debt the rest of your life while eating kraft.

Second sentence hits hard; I've observed the exact same. I mean I sorta get it at that age it's hard to conceptualize for them, but at least with a few of them they get it when I say "Ok, you didn't get into the college you want. But you're still going to college, and a decent one."

I have a friend that legit didn't get (but to their credit, they were really trying to understand) when I explained the mentality of "I felt like I only had one good shot at <x> because of a lack of a safety net". Tried to explain but at the time it didn't quite click.

Can't always find it in myself to completely blame the kids. I'm more mad at the parents who put that pressure on their kids. Like I get wanting to instill certain values in them, but it's rough seeing some be suicidal over this stuff when the reality is they're going to be fine financially no matter what because of their family's wealth. And heck, I'm not even talking about the mega rich here.

[archibaldcrane]

The average H1B (across all industries) earns 120k a year, on top of the employer expenses to sponsor them. They aren't "cheap" workers.

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[Sirious]

Earn 120k for doing 200k+ worth of work

[Meresgi]

The average H1B (across all industries) earns 120k a year, on top of the employer expenses to sponsor them. They aren't "cheap" workers.

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120k is pretty damn cheap for software engineering for 50-60hr weeks in silicon valley and other major tech locations.

[arus2001]

Let's also not pretend that if they flood them, they can argue being able to pay even less due to qualified saturation and resulting desperation. Should really just identify it for what is: "politically correct" modern day slavery as we just bring these poor unfortunate souls on planes from their pathetic shithole countries that pay pennies on the dollar to bless them with 'murican greatness.

But as Mer otherwise noted, it's not like we have a shortage of bodies, we have a shortage of employers willing to pay American worker prices and benefits with a side nod to avoiding unionizing. It's the drive to outsource in other ventures and suddenly trying to spin it as bettering America or that we're lacking able minds is bullshit. In Elon's case, it also sounds a lot more like people are getting wise to his idiocy here so he needs fresh suckers not as exposed to his bafoonery to string along the grift. If bettering America was truly his intention, he would've done a hell of a lot better curbing twitter misinformation and not pandering to the right. But that would be woke or something, I guess.

[Tyche]

120k is pretty damn cheap for software engineering for 50-60hr weeks in silicon valley and other major tech locations.

Median for H1B software engineers is 130k. 75% make less than 175k.

There are associate degree nurses making 175k+ in that area working fewer hours.

[kuronosan]

The average H1B (across all industries) earns 120k a year, on top of the employer expenses to sponsor them. They aren't "cheap" workers.

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Take the words you put in your sentence and try this again.

Average H1B.
Across *all* industries.
On top of employer expenses to sponsor them.
They aren't "cheap" workers.

1) What countries do they come from and how much is the wage there compared to the American equivalent?

2) Which industries? And what is the median wage for those positions if filled by American workers?

3) What are the employer expenses to employ American workers?

4) In what way is "cheap" not a relative term here? What rights do these workers have compared to unionized workers?

I understand this a little better than most, since it parallels the medical residency system in the US. It costs a *lot* to train a physician, much of which is subsidized by Medicare, but residents are totally cheap labor compared to how much a nurse practitioner or fully fledged attending physician and yet are also under constant threat of that because they need the work to practice alone.

It's the one of the prime reasons they've started to unionize - health systems can dismiss them at any time and render their time effectively useless - and there's almost never any blowback. Thus this threat is almost always held over their heads to force them to fall in line and work for what is effectively cheap wage.

So yeah, to your average person $120k "averaged across all industries" isn't cheap but I imagine to the people actually working in those industries it is, and that is generally why taking the jobs frustrates Americans. You can go from 2 cents a day to 120k a year and be satisfied if your standard of living was 2 cents a day. Also keep in mind they likely didn't have to take out loans for their education because their countries actually believe in an educated populace.

Try that when you have student loan debt, poor credit, no equity, and jobs won't hire because of "lack of qualifications".

Really need to start looking into why Americans don't want those jobs rather than why immigration is good or bad. Musk is arguing that Americans CAN'T do the job or are unqualified therefore visas allow for importing of skilled workers, not that immigration visas allow us to fill the same job with the same skill level at the same wage we'd pay domestic.

Jesus dude why else do you think Nike et al pay Chinese kids to make shoes/goods?

[Yabby]

It's not just about paying less; it's about maximizing the value of the pay. Would you rather pay someone $150k for working 40-50 hours a week or the same $150k for putting in 80-100 hours a week?

[Byrthnoth]

H1B holders are paid less for the same work and are easier to abuse for the same reason. The visa program is designed so they can't reasonably quit without blowing up their lives, which puts them in a very bad negotiating position.

If you were going to get sent back home with a big FAILED stamp on your forehead if you quit and didn't find another job (willing to sponsor an H1B) within a month, how well could you push for a raise or stop an abusive boss from making you work hundred hours weeks?

Instead of H1B visas, it would be far more ethical to rework our actual immigration system. Merit-based immigration would let the same people compete for the same jobs without putting them at a massive disadvantage and making them slaves to SpaceX and Tesl... I mean some companies.

[Julian]

As a software engineer who has never managed to get an offer from a tech company (and boy did I try), they can all fuck right off with the lack of talent bullshit.

Fortunately there are other industries that actually hire American. Sure, the pay is nowhere near as good, but at least I can live in a lower COL area and actually afford to buy a house.

"America First", such bullshit. More like "I'm in power. Whatever makes me richer first."

[Salodin]

https://x.com/merissahansen17/status...KrTI3-sUg&s=19

Nah it's totally not about the cheaper workforce easier to retain while abusing them with work conditions. Totally not about replacing an american workforce that can jump ship without worrying about visa issues

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[Byrthnoth]

I'm pretty sure that one's a miss. The gigafactory is where they actually make cars/components and H1B visas would not be approved for people that are going to work on an assembly line.

[archibaldcrane]

Median for H1B software engineers is 130k. 75% make less than 175k.

That's so much cheaper than the median SFE salary

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and...developers.htm

And of course that doesn't figure in the employer sponsoring costs.

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