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  1. #1
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    RDM Nuke

    I was given the impression that Red mages shouldn't nuke AT ALL!
    Can someone please explain to me why?

    I understand people think it's a waste of mana because red mages don't nuke as hard as the blm, but here a few things i'd like to state out just incase people didn't notice.

    1) We only had 5 BLMs the other day (which is ALWAYS the case), and 3/5 times the BLM can't kill the Statues in 1 blow leaving it at 10% HP.

    2) Not all Red Mages have shitty nuke. I take of like 1/5 of the statue's HP when there's no resist. 1/10 if it resist, but it's enough to 'finish the job'.

    3) Statues refill your MP to full. During Dynamis-Jeuno, I never ran out of MP from nuking because of all the refills~

    Rdm's main role is to Refresh and debuff, and the occasional cure~ But besides that, there's a 60% idle time just WAITING for people to get hit, or the debuff to wear off. Waste of time.
    You might think if Red Mages nuke also they won't have enough mana for Refresh, Cure, debuff and other shit.
    That's true, but it's not like a Red mage would Exhaust ALL their mana into nuking. I believe any level 70+ Red Mage would have a good sense of judgement as to WHEN they should or shouldn't nuke.

    And also, ever been in an EXP PT where the Blm would MB "Thundaga III" when the monster has only 1% HP? That exact same thing happened during Dynamis-Jeuno. The blms leave a statue at 5% HP and almost every single time they would continue to cast "Thunder IV"... It's a waste of MP and it takes time to regain.
    I'm not saying the Blms aren't doing a good job~ They were great~ But Rdm Nuke can help release some of the MP burden on the blm.

    And just a point of interest, a 75 RDM/BLM and a 75 BLM/WHM has the same base INT. A red mage with full INT gear can usually nuke just as hard as a BLM with the same gear and same spell.
    I repeat, RDM nuke aren't all that shitty. Not mine at least.
    Sure my spells would get resisted more~ but i'm just trying to help out.

    May someone please answer me back fairly if they have a different point of view? Thx
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  2. #2
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    if you have too much idle time there are other things to do

    enfeebling stuff for instance here's a few things i do in dynamis

    paralyze on all monks (hoping they get paralyzed a lot during hundred fists)

    silence on all casters, slow on just about everything, paralyze and slow on all NMs. i rarely get resisted even just using verm and not AF body. i don't usually gravity stuff other than NMs but i think that could help on some things too (just not when they're tyring to pull it a long distance back to melees, waste of time)\

    in some cases nuking is ok,.. that time we went to pull the statues down by the embassy and got a HUGE link and all the blms died, we rdm's nuked some of the statues to death and we were able to not completely wipe out. it's just that we notice you particularly doing nukes a lot, in some cases it's good that you're putting your mp to use instead of just idling between refrsh cycles. but there's other stuff you could do too.. maybe helping with haste?
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  3. #3

    I'm more pro nuke myself especially if we are not resisted. Only difference I see after 70 is the #4 spells cause I see blm's get resisted just as much as some of us Rdm's. I dunno I just like to see enemies cold and dead.
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  4. #4
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    statues are always 50% resist.... kinda like pots. the only reason i can see ppl not wanting rdm to nuke is... thats what the blms are for.. we dont do anything else (aside from sleep.. but we share that with bards and rdms who are both generally better than us) as a general rule.. statues die to 3 casts of the top end 4 spells (bliz4/thunder4).

    i have nothing personal against rdm nukes... especially when blms start dropping... but when the statues are at like 1/3 life or better and blms are still up.. gravity is much more helpful.. it lets us marathon nuke the statues easily
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  5. #5
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    let me give you some core facts since i've done dynamis on the front line more than 10 times

    1. black mage nuke using 276 elemental skill is 1/50 times resisted

    2. black mage thunder iv for 171 mp with the highest conserve mp job ability in the game takes a weaker statue to 40% health and a stronger one to 55% health. factors vary by day of the week of course.

    3. red mage have 230 elemental skill. thats as much as blm get enfeebling skill. trying to land enfeebling in dynamis with full errant gear and elemental staff of that type still does nothing.

    4. you talk about mp efficiency. our job is to nuke. you have fast cast and nuke and thus dish out unnecessary damage which basically wastes our mp. we use tier 4 spells because thats the advantage that we have as primary magic damage dealers.

    5. you talk about mp efficiency on wasting mp on mobs that have low hp. by careful eyes quick and i have already discovered which mobs give full mp regen. we try and get that pulled last in a 3 statue-in-a-row fashion so we get a full mp recover. so even if i get down to 100ish i'm back at 1000+

    6. when monsters are down at low health, i have a pluto's staff and 269+15 dark magic skill. you have 200. my 21mp drain can do over 200 damage on a statue which has innate 50% magic resist. yours can do about 10. drain is the ultimate mp efficiency spell, and we're much better at it.

    7. if you havent noticed, debuffs wear off really fast in dynamis. i put gravity on something with my crap debuff skill and it wore off in 7 seconds. i silence something and it wears off in 10 seconds then sleepgas everyone and does firaga 3. why do i have to be debuffing at all? joft mentioned there are like 8 red mages there. why the hell is a black mage with 230 enfeebling skill debuffing anything? the fact that i'm actually getting "veritas casts silence. the blahblah is silenced" means theres something for you to do aside from nuking.

    through however long i've known you i know you like nuking more than whatever else. you always MB on everything even when we're trying to build tp or whatever. the reason 50 billion people are shouting to stop nuking isnt because we hate you, its just the plain and simple fact that black mages not only can double the damage for 1-2 second cast time and have far less resist but we have nothing else to do. we can buff ourselves...woo hoo...you can buff others you have many more debuffs that actually land and if so for more than 5 seconds, you can refresh you have a lot more tools to make you versatile more than my job. and we only have 4 black mages these days...alphar is prolly gone again, kibbles is like working or something, blackheart is still in "inactive", and wedgeron like quit or something. so we have me malign hellboy canibus. thats actually enough to take out 2 statues at once. we all have elemental staffs and assloads of expensive INT gear. we've been working with each other long enough so we can cover each other's asses between nukes and whatnot. regardless if 75 blm/whm and 75 rdm/blm have same base int, that means you can land black magic debuffs better and do the same dmg using thunder 3...a spell that doesnt ever get used in dynamis due to the need to dish out as much damage at one time in the shortest amount of time at once.
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  6. #6
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    in some cases it's good that you're putting your mp to use instead of just idling between refrsh cycles. but there's other stuff you could do too.. maybe helping with haste?
    Haste is 40 Mp, and it only benefits 1 single target for 1 minute-ish. That would be the biggest mana drain :l

    Some spells like, Slow Paralyze Gravity and Blind (which is always overwritten by flash) I always make sure those are on. Same with Silence and sleep.
    But like i said~ even doing all those there's still a great amount of idle time. Rdm debuffs, except for silence, usually last for one entire battle's duration and it takes only bout 15 seconds to cast all.

    According to Veritas' second point, that's exactly what i wanted to point out.
    "black mage thunder iv for 171 mp with the highest conserve mp job ability in the game takes a weaker statue to 40% health and a stronger one to 55% health."
    It would seem to me, that a lot of the statues are the 'stronger' ones, Leaving it at last 10% after 2 cast.
    Tier 3 spells only cost around from 90-130mp, and deals out 250-350 damage on statues, which is apparently a huge chunk of the statue's HP.
    And according to Malign, "statues are always 50% resist.... " i actually didn't get resisted that much afterall. (i thought i was doing half damage due to Resist)
    2 x Tier 4 spells + 1 Tier 3 spell = Death
    Instead of Tier 4 x 3 which cost more MP overall.

    "you talk about mp efficiency. our job is to nuke. you have fast cast and nuke and thus dish out unnecessary damage which basically wastes our mp."
    And like i've stated above, the 'unnecessary damage' kills the statue with a tier 3 spell which cost less mana than a tier 4 from a Blm. How does that waste your mp?

    my 21mp drain can do over 200 damage on a statue which has innate 50% magic resist. yours can do about 10. drain is the ultimate mp efficiency spell, and we're much better at it.
    I understand your point, but just for the record ^^; i do at least 50-200 damage to mobs with drain, aspir on the other hand gets a lot more resist than drain.

    the only reason i can see ppl not wanting rdm to nuke is... thats what the blms are for..
    That's true, and i can't argue to that.

    One last thing i'd like respond to, is this:
    "the fact that i'm actually getting "veritas casts silence. the blahblah is silenced" means theres something for you to do aside from nuking. "
    Black mages are at the front line. They will be the first to see the mob and thus be the first to see it casting on the Puller/tank.
    The formation right now with all the support casters at the back makes it hard for us to cast spells like Silence before the blm does.
    And there's a problem to that... when blms Silences the monster and pulled to the back later, all the Rdm will cast Silence only to get a message saying "[Name]'s Silence has no effect on [Mob name]"
    And when the effect wears off, only the blm will be informed. Which makes it a harder for us to keep track.
    I think a few rdm (more than just the 1 in the blm PT) should be upfront with the Blm to do the more important debuffs.
    I should be posting this on a different thread since it has to do with our formation.. but ah well..

    I guess right now all i can do apart from my main role is 'back up nuke' in unexpected situations.
    Veritas, please put me in the BLM pt next time if possible :/ Not coz i want to nuke, but i want more to do. Having just 1 or 2 person to refresh in a melee PT is just giving me too much idle time.
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  7. #7
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    how's this for an idea

    blms have more than enough mp almost always to completely obliterate a few statues, sleepga2 their summons, and help kill the dangerous ones like NIN MNK SMN and so on. the statue MP bendiction thing plus having a bard and rdm in their pt always makes it so that they don't need help nuking stuff when things are going normal... so in that case, help haste people (if you argue that haste is useless or a waste of mp i can guarantee you'll ruffle a LOT of people's feathers), throw in the most important enfeebles (gravity some statues so they don't push down some BLMs, silence stuff etc), and do your fresh cycle.

    however, if a pull goes wrong and we get a lot of statues, that might be an instance rdm back-up nuke would be more useful than wasteful. as long as you remember to do the other stuff like gravity one of the statues that the blm's didn't kill first so that it doesn't get to them and critical them for 600 damage.
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    This post is not completely related to the thread~
    But i'd just like to state that i'm going to carry on Rdm nuking, but only at the moment i feel is necessary. You guys will just have to trust my judgement.

    I'm going to stick with what i did during the last Dynamis~ unless someone thinks i can further improve more.

    Just a brief summary of what i did during Dynamis Bastok
    ==============
    Summary:
    1) I didn't follow the formation suggested in the forum, because i feel rdm should be up front to do debuff asap; Especially silence.

    2) Used Barpetrify and it didn't help at all.

    3) *bragging* saved the frontline ppl from being annihilated when they all got breakga-ed for the first time (I sleepga-ed)

    4) Did everything i was suppose to do... e.g. Debuff + Refresh cycle (there's only medic and me, and occasionally refreshed Yin) + A little Nuking when i felt it was necessary.

    5) Didn't Haste anyone coz i still think it's a waste of MP coz it's a single target spell (40 mp, same as Refresh) and each fight lasts only 15-30 seconds, followed by a long waiting time. The spell won't be brought to full use~

    6) Chainspell-ed plus Convert when 5+ statues came at the end. Killed 2.5 statue but unfortunately didn't have enough mana to kill the 'green eye-ed statue' to refill mana (wasted a good 15 seconds of Chainspell)

    Anyway~ Apparently Gravity doens't work on Statue. They already walk slow enough; i marathon-ed a 1-2 times when i got hate.
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  9. #9
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    yea i'm always soloing statues when shit hits the fan

    barstone/petrify are worthless. RDM SJ RESIST OWNS tho

    there is something else rdm can do

    if you ever notice statues pop out they have only like 3 magics: protectra4/shellra4/some nuke if its a nuking statue

    THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM!!

    first, shell 4 beats the crap out of offensive nukes. since we're trying to kill asap we need someone else to dispel. i did like 90% of the dispelling last dynamis. you need to take the filter or effects filter off and see that (you = all rdm not just windd)

    second, and worse, the mobs it spawns get the protectra. how badly does it suck if protect4 is on a monster thats pretty hard to hit if you're low lv or generally needs to die asap and we have 30 guys whackin on it and every one of those hits is getting killed by p4? 25 mp for faster kill time = sweet

    and even with all the silencing you cant stop silencing. if you guys havent noticed, debuffs last 5 seconds a lot of the time on dynamis monsters. i casted silence and it wore off 5 seconds later, then same thing happened to joft and after like blazer silenced it 10 seconds later it woke up and started doing breakga. you cant just do silence once and be like "oh i guess we're safe now"...

    rdm front line debuff/dispel/silence is something i dont have a problem with. as for the "save front line by sleepga", not to sound rude or obnoxious but it wouldnt have done breakga if silenced >.>
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    i kinda think you need to do what the ppl who are planning this and doing the research ask you to they dont need to "trust your judgement" they need to know that you are going to be doing the jobs they are expecting from you and being near the position they expect you to be in...



    ... sometimes ver tells me to do some reduntant things or sometimes things that ive already done or even things that i dont think are the best idea... but.. in dynamis he is leader-ish thing of the BLMs so i do what he says no questions asked. he also needs to know that i will ibe with him droppin nukes on that statue thats chasing him in circles and not in back trying to silence some gob.. just like we (blms) need to trust in the rdms and bards in back to be there watching for a sleep or silence or whatever...
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    i kinda think you need to do what the ppl who are planning this and doing the research ask you to they dont need to "trust your judgement" they need to know that you are going to be doing the jobs they are expecting from you and being near the position they expect you to be in...
    You're right~ that's why i'm going try to change things a little. :/ they need to position us better.

    rdm front line debuff/dispel/silence is something i dont have a problem with. as for the "save front line by sleepga", not to sound rude or obnoxious but it wouldnt have done breakga if silenced >.>
    If i remembered correctly, the time when people got Breakga-ed, only 2 Rdm were front line and the rest stayed behind like they were asked. If there's enough Rdm silencing / debuffing immediately after the mobs spawn, ppl wouldn't have got Breakga-ed in the first place (if all rdm keep the debuffs on)

    Veritas, i'm sure all rdms are aware that silence wears off rather quickly. And i believe not just me but all other rdms try to keep all the dangerous casting mobs silenced.
    I've already mentioned this in previous posts...
    But... here's the usual case.. A blm (usually... coz they are frontline and gets the 1st chance to debuff) silences ... say... a scorpion.
    The rdm, spamming spells anyway, recast silence on the same mob and receive the message "[Name]'s Silence has no effect on [monstername]"
    And the rdm will never get a message notifying WHEN the silence wore off if it did~
    Right now all rdms are just recasting Silence at a random time to make sure it's silenced~ and i bet 100% of the time when a Scorpion successfully casted Breakga, is when it woke up at a bad time, and the rdm didn't yet 'random cast' it till the mob starts casting; by then it's already too late.
    That's more of a reason why rdm should stay up front.. and we should be doing the debuffing job, not the blm. At least then we'll be notified and can recast immediately.
    (i feel like i should bring this to a proper thread......)

    I do dispel statues when i see them cast Shell IV btw (and did)~ But they only start casting spells when they are engaged in battle, so i can't just spam Dispel everytime i see a brand new statue, it's just gonna get wasted.
    I only died once in the last dynamis bastok, and only because i saw a statue with Shell IV casted on itself + i knew you guys were trying to kill it asap... so i tried to dispel it~then 500 mobs rushed up and i got pushed over.
    If there's any other cases where i didn't cast dispel, it's because i didn't see them BECAUSE i wasn't up front :/ (and yes, i can see effects, i filtered all attacks but left special actions and other effects on)


    Forgive me if i'm wrong but i believe statues only cast single target Protect / shell spells~
    I doubt mobs would 'spawn' WITH protect IV, and nor do statues. But if you have this confirmed, i'll change my playing style accordingly.
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  12. #12
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    i am 100% sure. protectra/shellra 4 its not single target (or they have the single target versions, but seldom use it)

    as for positioning and hte silencing thing joft was telling me on vent to stop silencing things so he could see the The Vanguard Scorpion is no longer silenced. msg. so i stopped silencing things and they petrified everyone

    so what if its a waste that you dispel on sight? i have dispel myself and i know its 25 mp and 2-3 second recast time...its not that big of a deal to waste a dispel, its better than guessing that the thing doesn thave that effect and it just happens to have it and we get boned

    yes you may see "windd's silence has no effect on blah blah" but you know it wears off pretty fast so keep doing it lol...sometimes even with sleep, which really lasts a long time usually, i sleepga after everyone else just to make sure things stay slept. its much better to waste some mp than to save it for later when you're dead and its no use at all. theres plenty of green statues positioned at key locations where we could pull them and max hp/mp heal everyone, you already know that.

    edit: ok i misread you...no they dont spawn with that spell but the statue casts it and the casting time is longer than it takes for the monsters to pop. so basically they monsters are popped and have the beneficial buffs before they are pulled to melee.
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  13. #13
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    Humans, Mithras, plz... (Galka? hmm... not in consideration w) one thing u guys need to notice...
    Taurtaru has the highest INT and MP. That's not just for BLM, it applies to Taru RDMs also. Do you guys ever have more MP than your HP? A Taru RDM's MP/HP ratio is about at 1:1. Say at lv70 with BLM sub, we probably have 800HP 800Mps at least.
    Of course, RDMs are more like a support type than a nuker... but if u really want it that way.. go for RDM/BRD. that's even batter with MP refresh and stuff. RDM/BLM as a Taru has the potential to nuke, and it does nuke as hard as a BLM when no resist. Morever, we have MPs that you guys never gonna get no matter what gears you have. so~ nothing wrong with a RDM nuking if they have their job done well. Of course we can just stop nuking... but keeping that 400+ mp and never use it, that's kinda of waste, isnt it? :/ plus as RDMs... we have convert refreshs and shits like that..... so how many enbuff and debuff you actually need to do that cost totall 1600+ mps in 10min...... you do the math yourself.
    I dont know how a human and mithra or maybe elvvan look at this... but as a taru RDM... we have more than enough MPs to save for just simple debuff, enbuff and cure... :/ . Everyone should remember Maat battle for lv70 right? it's way easier for a Taru ... why? cuz we have more MP and hihger INTs..... me personally beat it on first try.. beat record at 4min58sec. I never heard a taru complain about that Genkai5 while elvvans and humans crying like a baby for getting owned by maat >.>
    No Offence in this thread... just saying that we shouldnt simply apply some common impression of RDMs onto Tarus, cuz Tarus are born to be mages. And we should take advantage of that, not eliminate it cuz of some stupid comments on RDM nuking... >.> i think as a 70+ player... we should have some sence of what we doing. Peace ^^v /slap me in game if i you think I BS too much here.
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  14. #14
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    problem #1

    if you watching the statue mobs and nuking, you arent watching the mobs you need to keep silenced/slowed/dispeled etc. and even if you ARE watching, you are mid cast on a nuke and there isnt a damn thing you can do about it if slow or silence come off and they bust out their 2 hour and chainspell or 100 fist or mighty strikes the melees to death.

    problem #2

    you have no tier 4 spells, have two of the FOUR magic attack bonuses for blm. a rdm will NEVER be able to nuke as hard as a blm, just like a blm will never be able to enfeeble as well as a rdm. veritas and i can easily waste a statue on our own (one cast each). so, if you throw a thunder 3 in between our thunder 4's, it makes NO difference. its going to die anyway.

    problem #3

    its not unheard of for the blms to get wiped on a massive link, at that point in time, rdms will need all their available "MPs" to nuke the hell outa the statues that the blms couldnt get before they died. now if your down to 50% mp and have 3 statues coming after you, you are NOT going to have the mp to kill them , you will NOT be able to convert because you will die before you can heal.
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    holy shit im not reading everything on this post sooo... BF
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    :3 hmm~ i thought this matter was settled a long time ago~
    anyway..

    veritas and i can easily waste a statue on our own (one cast each). so, if you throw a thunder 3 in between our thunder 4's, it makes NO difference. its going to die anyway.
    Actually, it makes a difference~
    Next time in dynamis if you pay close attention (not implying you don't pay attenton normally), you'll see my thunder III Kills from time to time~ Thus saving the tier IV mp cost for another blm~

    Rdm nuke aren't 'dismissed'...
    However, for harder dyanmises like (Dynamis - Windurst), it's best if you (Conserve MP!) normally, and only nuke when 3-4 Statues pop on the Alliance

    Peace ^^v /slap me in game if i you think I BS too much here.
    We can't do that when you're on 'Guest' :3 not that i'm going to~
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  17. #17
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    you're never in my party and so you never get to see that i'm 1056/1056 most of the time.

    the only times where we run out of mp is when yummy and quick are already yelling RDM NUKE

    dont tell me to conserve mp when i'm 1056/1056 most of the time

    right after i nuke i use drain and so do other blms (if they're smart) which is 21mp more, and since i dont use it in any other time unless we're still on mobs and its up, theres not really any mp wasted
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  18. #18
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    (Huh?!)
    When did i tell you to (Conserve MP!)?
    (Hmmm)~ i guess that was a little unclear as to who i was addressing.
    I was talking about the Rdm; replying 'Guest''s post.
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  19. #19
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    LSLOVE
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  20. #20
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    i can tell you one thing.. trying to set up and kill statues when there are people crowding around nuking is nearly impossible in windy. we had what, 6 or 7 blms? why were rdms up front nuking while birds kept getting silencega off? why did we get thundaga'd and firaga'd?
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