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  1. #1
    Renegade Philosopher
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    A clarification about "exceptions"

    Last night in Dynamis-Windurst there was an issue with somebody who was not tier1 being able to lot at the same time as real tier1 people because of a supposed "exception" according to Yummy. That person won the AF2 over all the other tier1 people there.

    This needs to be made clear now. Right now, the rule system isn't 100% perfect but it's clear to see when and why a person can lot. When you start making exceptions, it puts the entire system in jeopardy because others will feel they have right to having an "exception" as well.

    No exceptions are to be made to lotting tiers at this time. A person's lotting tier is based on their attendance under the rules, not based on any one person's judgment on what is "fair."

    When exceptions start being made, the system loses its meaning and it's unfair not only to the real tier1 people, but also to other people who may have missed dynamis events for good reasons and feel they deserve exceptions too. It is too hard and too arbitrary to try and spend the hours it would take sorting out all the exceptions and figuring out what should count and what shouldn't. That is why the only solid rules you can go by are the ones that were put down when we started them.

    I think Yummy and Aenarion owe all those tier1 people who got lotted over an apology for doing this. It wasn't right, it wasn't fair, and it should never happen again.

    Finally, to those people who complain that the attendance rules make it too easy to get tier1, and to those people who feel that the attendance rules are flawed because there are no exceptions... stop putting so much emphasis on the AF2. Most people who are tier1 now have won at least one piece of AF2 if not multiple pieces by now. You are getting your fair share. To people who aren't tier1, the system makes it reasonable to get to tier1 so that you can have that chance to lot for AF2.

    To me, the most important thing about this Dynamis LS is that we keep improving and that we have been progressing. After having so much trouble in Windurst, we've cleared it our last 3 times. We are doing well in catching up to many of the JP Dynamis LSes that have been doing this far longer than we have. The AF2 will come sometime or another, and as we keep improving and getting stronger, we'll get more of it. It shouldn't be an issue. Hopefully everyone can realize this and can get past it.

    ~Quicklet

  2. #2
    Relic Shield
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    It's pretty convenient that you can put so much emphasis on establishing how important the blind rule system is, but then when someone has a valid argument you escape it by saying NOT to put so much emphasis on AF2.

    The purpose of Dynamis is to get AF2. And I'm going to establish that right now by asking a series of questions.

    Do you honestly think the purpose of Dynamis is to see the cutscenes? When you did your AF1 quests, did you do them for the purpose of seeing the cutscenes? Did people help you do them so that you could see the cutscenes?

    Is it for relic weapons? Is it for dynamis currency? Those don't seem very practical, as the combined currency that we've gotten in about 30 dynamises isn't even close to being enough for 1 relic. Is it for bragging rights? Is it just for the fun of doing it? Those are very idealistic but also not very practical. I think we all know the real reason that keeps people coming back, and it sure as hell isn't to die a bunch of times and level down. The only reason we're even having this discussion is because of how important AF2 is to everyone.

    I agree only caring about AF2 sucks, and people being greedy about it make it just lame that it's lot-able and not just quested somehow. But it's ridiculously impractical to say that people shouldn't focus on the AF2... Honestly, trying to tell 60+ people that they should attend for 4 hours 2 days a week for MONTHS upon months just for 1 cutscene at the end of it all is pretty stupid.

    I'm not trying to play devil's advocate or be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole. You just can't expect people to not care about AF2 any more than you could insist that a group of 60 people all level up to lv60+ without getting any of their AF1. And if you're going to take the responsibility of being a leader upon yourself, you have to realize that if you don't please the people they won't follow you. It may be YOUR dream to just be in this for the sense of accomplishment and you don't care about AF2, but it sure as hell isn't anyone else's.

    People hate blind rules but leaders love them. Leaders don't want to sort through everyone's proposed exception and try to make everyone happy because it's time consuming. But people who feel as though they've been done an injustice because nobody would consider the specifics of their situation aren't going to want to stick around very long.

    I have to side with Yummy on this one, Aenarion got screwed over like none other. If you're going to say that the rules are more important than the people they're screwing over, you're just a bad leader and that's all there is to it.

  3. #3

    no one will ever see eye to eye on this. but i have to go with quicklets pov on this.

    People hate blind rules but leaders love them. Leaders don't want to sort through everyone's proposed exception and try to make everyone happy because it's time consuming. But people who feel as though they've been done an injustice because nobody would consider the specifics of their situation aren't going to want to stick around very long.
    how can you say the people hate the blind rules, when we have had such a good turnout every single dynamis we have done since we started this. the rules are fair, and IMPARTIAL, and they should stay that way. we cant make exceptions for people we like, we cant compromise the system we have put in place.

    its like quicklet said, its not fair to the others.

    and as for the people you say wont stick around very long, i think your wrong. i think they will stick around, cause like you said, this is more about AF2 than clearing and they know if the put in the effort, they will get their chance to lot. you think ANBU will get as many AF drops as we get when they kill 1/4th the amount of mobs we do? or maybe theyll stay because we have less wipes, so less xp loss?

    but i dont think yummy owes us an apology, i think he did what he thought was right, and its because no one spoke up the first time, or made a firm descision the first time, that this happened.

    edit: i wasnt sure if i should put this in, but it really made me mad, if anyone owes us an apology its Arno for leaving halfway through the dynamis. I hope you dont take this the wrong way Arno, but it really pissed me off that you did that. I hate it when people put their self ahead of everyone else, it was a real self centered thing. btw, if im offbase and the reason you left had nothing to do with Yummy/Aenerion, then ignore this, and ill eat my crow orz.

  4. #4

    Was there not a discussion about this sort of bullshit. Quit referring to Anbu. DynamisCasino did get 5 af2 drops a week ago but still didnt complete D.Jeuno. Happy?

    Keep the peace or shut the fuck up for the love of god.

  5. #5
    Relic Shield
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    ban plz

  6. #6

    way to be an asshole wildkat, listen to your own god damn advice you gigantic moron.

    Keep the peace or shut the fuck up for the love of god.
    i call our dynamis BG, and yours ANBU, its not cause i dont "care" about the other people, its just more relative to me. so deal with itand move on. and stop looking for reasons to flame us.

  7. #7
    Salvage Bans
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    first of all, i was going to apoligize for provoking so much bullshit last night. but what's the need for calling me out in the public forum for when you know the only people whining about this situation were people in bg who had nothing to do with pld af2. bring it up with me somewhere else.

    The backbone behind my opinion is that Aenarion is a dedicated member to our dynamis. Aenarion has been with us since the beginning and until a few weeks ago we were struggling to get enough members to be able to complete dynamis-windurst. so of course we had to do our best to get a dedicated pld to stick around.

    About exceptions... as long as it doesnt blow up into more, 1 exception in every 10 or so dynamis' is something that people will accept if they are told to. these guys will listen to somebody telling them yes or no to their situations and maybe i shouldnt necessarily have made myself that person to tell them "yes or no" but when i bring this situation to you a whole month before we ran into last nights problem, and i get a few positive and negative responses to what i bring up, a decision still has to be made. It was made and the plds involved respected that, some of them even telling you guys who werent involved and blowing this shit up, to listen to me. I'll leave decisions to other people from now on but to me it was either aenarion gets screwed for 8 or so more dynamis' or almaa and lito have a 1 in 6-8 chance of getting screwed if they happen to have the highest lot. You guys know the system fucked him, and people with worse attendance have had the chance to lot a lot faster than he did, and in the coming weeks before he has 75% total attendance you will watch tens of others with shittier attendance run by him too.

    I know somebody will bring up lito and almaa because they really do deserve more. they both have had 100% attendance and have both won jack shit when it comes to af2. Some people have brought up making a new tier for the people at the top of the list who may be most deserving, but we cant start making our lotting system into a pecking order or we will lose members. We need to keep it close to what it is now so that everybody has a chance if they show up. almaa and lito do have that ultimate number of 100% attendance but as it is people cant get to the top tier unless they are dedicated to us. and thats what should count, or else we can say bye bye to the chance at having all these quality players to do a successful dynamis.

  8. #8
    Black Belt
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    how can you say the people hate the blind rules, when we have had such a good turnout every single dynamis we have done since we started this. the rules are fair, and IMPARTIAL, and they should stay that way. we cant make exceptions for people we like, we cant compromise the system we have put in place.
    if all rules/laws are fair and impartial, there would be no such thing as self-defense when you kill somebody. women would not be voting, African-Americans would still be slaves.

    the U.S. Constitution has amendments, there's no reason why these rules should be perfect.

    instead of talking about right and wrong, i have a proposal for an amendment.

    ---

    Attendance Check

    Bert has in a way been doing this already, anyone who misses 4 straight has two options:
    1) be removed from the list and start over if you ever come back
    2) ask to stay on and take the hits for no shows

    4 straight is a lot so whoever does it more than likely have something going on that's unavoidable.

    if you come back after being removed, you have to start over and lose everything that happened before. whether or not people are let back in of course is a different issue.

    this should also apply to Beaucedine + Xarcabard. under this amendment, people have 4 rounds to get the Key Item(s) they are missing with another LS. if you return before the 4 round limit, those 1-4 misses will be greyed out and have no effect. if you take more than 4 rounds, you will have to take one of the two options, clear your plate and start over or eat 5+ no shows to your attendance.

    this should also be retroactive and will fix the Aenarion issue.

  9. #9

    so in theory, i could miss the first 3 beaucidine dynamis, which i know we wont clear, then come back, get the key item, and lot at will.....

    also what if a person goes 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1, does that person still have 100% even though hes only been to 4 out of 13?

    each new "amendment" brings about new arguements, and new loopholes. im not saying its a bad idea, im just saying what we have now has been working well.

    i think at this point we can rely on an honor system, granted we have a couple new people, and we will have to be wary there, but weve had a consistent showing by 50+ people, which is damn amazing if you ask me.

  10. #10
    Relic Weapons
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildkat
    Was there not a discussion about this sort of bullshit. Quit referring to Anbu. DynamisCasino did get 5 af2 drops a week ago but still didnt complete D.Jeuno. Happy?

    Keep the peace or shut the fuck up for the love of god.
    would you get the fuck out already... thx bye

  11. #11
    Black Belt
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    so in theory, i could miss the first 3 beaucidine dynamis, which i know we wont clear, then come back, get the key item, and lot at will.....
    you can only get those free passes if you do not have 4 clear (someone like Bikwin for example, i know doesn't have Jeuno) he can't come to Beaucedine if he wanted to. he can use those four free passes to get the other key items with other people without changing his attendance percentage.

    the current rule is actually:
    2) for when we do beaucedine and xarcabards, and you are not flagged for either/or, you will not receive an attendance hit. the only thing that is negative toward lotting ability by not being flagged, is that you do not have an opportunity to raise your ratio.
    that's unlimited free passes as long as you don't bother clearing them, you can take 4 months and come back and it won't change your percentage.

    this part of the rule i put in to encourage people to try and find a way to get 4 clear soon and not loaf around because of unlimited free passes.

    there's no loophole here for someone who has 4 clear but is lazy to show up cause they think we won't clear the first 3-4 times. if you have 4 clear, which most of us do, you don't get this exception.

    also what if a person goes 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1, does that person still have 100% even though hes only been to 4 out of 13?
    well first of all my example is for 4 misses so this is more accurate 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1.

    once it gets to the point of 1 0 0 0 0 1 you have to make a choice

    Option 1 - [N N N N N 1] and have 1/6 total and 1/1 personnal. this wipes out everything you've done before and treats you as a new member to the LS.
    Option 2 - [1 0 0 0 0 1] and have 2/6 total and 2/6 personnal. this is do nothing.

    if that same person again wants to miss 4 straight it will be
    [N N N N N 1 0 0 0 0 1]

    than you have to clear again
    [N N N N N N N N N N 1] and have 1/11 total and 1/1 personnal

    N - stands for Null, which is that grey stuff you see on the chart

    i'm definitely making this more complicated than its worth. the purpose of this is that a person should be able to rededicate themselves to the LS with a clear record if they choose to do so. there's no reason why anyone who wants to rededicate himself to the LS should be worse off than a newb who just showed up.

    to take a real example from the chart.
    - if Amator rejoins next week and is dedicated for the next month (8 events), because of his old record he'd be Tier 2 after a month.
    - if some new guy joins next week and is dedicated for the next month, he'd be Tier 1.

    if you let someone back in, they should not be worse off than a newb who joins at the same time.

    this is where the whole Aenarion issue comes from. if you take a look at Aen's record, he's no worse than Axtheex, Bikwin, Inzmail and myself. while the 4 of us are Tier 1, he's Tier 2.

    this is where i see the system is broken, it looks to me that's what Yummy and Joft is pointing at when they say he got screwed. i'm just trying to quantify it (and seemingly making it very complicated by doing so).

    i guess the simplest way to put it is
    - once you miss 4 straight (2 weeks) you get dumped from the LS roster
    - if you come back, you don't get your old record unless you ask for it to stick "before" you get dumped

  12. #12
    Salvage Bans
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    wiping slate after dedication is shown seems like a viable idea, thanks for offering reasonable solutions with backup reasons.

  13. #13

    once again people with the dedication get the shaft, 4 free passes to people who didn't clear!!!!!!!!!!! NOTHING FOR EVERYONE WHO DID MUAHAHAHAHA

    [No thanks.]

  14. #14
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    Aenarion 1 X X X X X 1 1 1 1 1 1 TIER2 (and needing EIGHT more Dynamis' to be Tier1)
    Bikwin.... X X X X X X X 1 1 1 1 1 TIER1

    • - Aenarion comes to the first dynamis, and then leaves on a planned trip for military training (or something along those lines)
      - Bikwin joins Wiffleball for our 8th dynamis.

    First of all, Bikwin i love you. Second i think Bikwin has proved he is dedicated and I'm not suggesting we make things tougher. And third stop being pussies about it and just accept this one exception. Either that or pretend he didnt show up to our first dynamis because he's being fucked for that and only that.

  15. #15

    Tiers are dumb, it should be based purely on attendance records, but hey, I'm biased, so don't listen to me.

  16. #16
    Melee Summoner
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    I'm lost..

    I know this isn't my place, But i'm reading this to gain ideas about what my LS will do when we begin dynamis and such...

    I'm really sorry to hear that even under a good system there are still flaws that can cause a person to be "left out"

    I Really hope you guys work something out that helps justify everyone in the end, I love you guys and your work, you inspire me and my friends. I hope you can work this out easly, with a solution that pleases everyone (or everyone that matters)

    [email protected]@~

  17. #17

    Why don't you change the tier lotting system so it's based on the last X number of Dynamises you've done...

    Let's take, 10 for instance. Probably not a good number, seeing that those who join will take a VERY long time to get the point where they'll recieve AF2 first. However, those who have been there for the last 10 will get what they deserve for their attendance.

    Now, thinking about it, I would say the best number is 7. Tier 1 is six and seven, giving room for one random missed Dynamis due to emergencies or something they had planned to do. Tier 2 would be four and five, Tier 3 would be two and three, and Tier 4 would be zero and one. None of that "free pass" stuff, just keep it simple. -.- Just because someone's cleared that certain Dynamis shouldn't give them the go-ahead to use a "free pass" to skip it.

    Keeping the Dynamis Tier setup the way it is now kinda discourages people from coming in because it will be a very long time before they can obtain a higher Tier, much less a piece of AF2. Think about Bard AF2, for instance. That drops like, never, right? Yeah. So it's gonna go to a Tier 1 first, and those who are most dedicated to the Dynamis linkshell over the last three weeks will be given a good oppurtunity to get it.

    I think attendance should be ignored if it's older than seven Dynamises. It's just the best number I can pull out of my head for this kind of scheduled activity, but six would work too. Go ahead and begin the flames for someone who's not even in any of them. I'm tired too, it's around 6 AM. -.- So if my thoughts on this aren't clear, I can come back and try again tomorrow.

  18. #18
    Melee Summoner
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    I didn't really want to say anything since it'll seem like I'm just trying to cover my ass, but anyway...

    Consider this, lotting based on att. percentage alone pretty much means a big "Fuck You" to everyone who did not join at the very first Dynamis IMO, and I think it'll strongly discourage any new people from joining since they'll ALWAYS be at the bottom of the list.

    The tier system as it is now will eventually have a problem like that as well, though not as severe as we do more and more runs. It's pretty obvious if you think about it.

    As for exceptions, I can only say that sometimes you just can't control everything. What if:

    - You've just had a death in family? you still going to continue playing FFXI?

    - Natural disaster: you live in Florida, and the hurricanes had just demolished your house or left you without electricity for weeks.

    - Personal injuries: You broke your fingers/hand, you have a surgery, etc etc.

    - Others: There are too many things for me to list here

    As for me, I've been doing dynamis runs with wiffleball before the current "revision". So it's only natural when I continued to go to the runs after the revision, and appearently that screwed me over. I have no control over whether I will go to the AT or not, Uncle Sam does. Sure, I can go up to the Colonel and tell him "Hey, fuck you sir, I'm not going to the AT, I'm staying home to play FFXI", but the only thing that'll change is that I'll be sitting in the brig while everyone else is at the AT, and I'll be busted down to private for the next 10 years :/ Besides, these trainings are the things that's going to help me make sure the dead ones are the ones in my sight, not me. No Raise in real life

    In otherwords, Attendance =/= Dedication, not completely anyway. It's more like Attendance = Dedication and lack of anything that might cause you to be unable to play during the scheduled dynamis time. Yes, you can just pull a [That's too bad] and leave it at that. But that's just telling people like me to go screw themselves.

  19. #19

    Quote Originally Posted by Aenarion
    Consider this, lotting based on att. percentage alone pretty much means a big "Fuck You" to everyone who did not join at the very first Dynamis IMO, and I think it'll strongly discourage any new people from joining since they'll ALWAYS be at the bottom of the list.
    this is untrue.. there are a lot of people who joined in the past month who are nearing/in the top tier now. as time goes on, it will be harder for newer people to get to the top, because 40% of total dynamises will keep increasing. but it won't be insane, as in 15-20 dynamises to get 1, for another few months. and when it is, that's how it should be, because people who've been around and come a very long time deserve it more. by the time it would take 15-20 points to get to 1, hopefully every tier 1 person will have their main job af2, then the bitching will magically disappear.

    the flaw that's affecting you is that having a 0 hurts someone, and that youre subject to all the points from the first dynamis you come to, so having one 1 and then five 0's (16%) makes it hard to get back to the top

  20. #20
    Melee Summoner
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    Quote Originally Posted by berticus
    Quote Originally Posted by Aenarion
    Consider this, lotting based on att. percentage alone pretty much means a big "Fuck You" to everyone who did not join at the very first Dynamis IMO, and I think it'll strongly discourage any new people from joining since they'll ALWAYS be at the bottom of the list.
    this is untrue.. there are a lot of people who joined in the past month who are nearing/in the top tier now. as time goes on, it will be harder for newer people to get to the top, because 40% of total dynamises will keep increasing. but it won't be insane, as in 15-20 dynamises to get 1, for another few months. and when it is, that's how it should be, because people who've been around and come a very long time deserve it more. by the time it would take 15-20 points to get to 1, hopefully every tier 1 person will have their main job af2, then the bitching will magically disappear.

    the flaw that's affecting you is that having a 0 hurts someone, and that youre subject to all the points from the first dynamis you come to, so having one 1 and then five 0's (16%) makes it hard to get back to the top

    I wasn't talking about the tier in that. I was saying if we take the tier away and just base it solely on attend. percentage as was suggested in an earlier post.

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