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  1. #1

    help me out.. lotting rule alterations or no?

    this is how the dynamis tier system came about
    in the beginning, we did about 7-8 dynamises in an alliance with myth, along with other outside guests. for many reasons, especially AF2 disputes, this LS dissolved and a new one was formed. before this one could be formed, we tried to see why the first wiffleball went wrong, and what could be done to fix it. various smaller stuff such as scheduling, payment, and level rules have changed, and have worked, but the one issue that causes the most problems is who can lot on AF2.

    why af2 was such a problem
    in old wiffleball, problems arose mainly when 2 things happened 1) people who weren't near the level to equip AF2 lotted and won 2) people who hadn't participated as much as others lotted and won AF2

    how we tried to address the AF2 issue
    who can lot on af2 was and has been the most critical and difficult problem for the leaders of the dynamis LS. to solve it, we came up with a system, and the way we came up with this system was basically translating statements into statistics.

    the ultimate principle of the af2 lotting system
    "the more dedicated people are, the more priority they should have for lotting AF2"

    explanation
    this translated into the personal %. people who have come to 3 out of 4 or more dynamises after joining were to be given priority over those who came to between 1/2 and 3/4. this rule led to the issue of new members having 100% from 1 out of 1 dynamis, whereas older members would have 100% from 13 out of 13 dynamises. so we added the following check.

    the longevity check on the personal %
    "members must attend 40% of the LS total runs before they can qualify to lot"

    explanation
    this rule was made to increase the fairness toward older members. as time goes on, or as the older members put in more time than those who would be new, the number of total LS runs increases, and the harder it is for newer people to get into tier 1.

    that's it. there were no extra catches or checks or exceptions or rules besides those, mostly because of the lack of a way to deal with issues like people who need to take breaks, or people who live in shitty timezones, within the restraint of those two rules above, while remaining fair. the justification was "people who put in the time, and actually come (regardless of ability/inability to come) should have priority over those who don't."

    ok, how do we fix this?
    i know that somewhat of a flaw has been shown by aenarion's situation, and i'd really appreciate suggestions to change the current system to be able to mend it. before you post, here is what some people have had in mind, and what i think. please discuss this a lot with specific suggestions and we can maybe change this.

    sendoh's 4 miss thing
    Quote Originally Posted by layoneil
    Bert has in a way been doing this already, anyone who misses 4 straight has two options:
    1) be removed from the list and start over if you ever come back
    2) ask to stay on and take the hits for no shows
    I like this, and wouldn't have much trouble implementing it. the only issue in my mind is, the fact remains that people who miss 4 straight (or however many) still are not putting in time.

    while you're here
    (beaucedine maybe too) xarcabard af2 drop rates are ridiculously rare. a lot of people have suggested we somehow make the requirements for lotting on xarc af2 a bit stricter than for the rest of the dynamises. what do you think about this? and how should we do it?

  2. #2
    Xavier
    Guest

    I think that people have been following the current tier system, and those that care have been working on their attendance following the rules. To suddenly change the system to shift the tiers members are in would undoubtedly screw at least a few people over on lotting rights, and people might not come in protest. Its my understanding that the xarcabard is a considerably harder dynamis, so the LS probably needs all its members to attend. I just don't think pissing people off this late in the game is worth it.

  3. #3
    Melee Summoner
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    26
    BG Level
    1

    obviously I'm biased here, but I think that at least some admendments should be made.

    You say that those who are more dedicated should have priority to lot, ok. If nothing is changed, then like Yummy says, I'll remain tier 2 for 8 more dynamises. Looking at the roster now, there are already 5 people who have attended less dynamis than I have who are now tier 1, and Xavier, who has done the same number as I have, is also tier 1. The ONLY difference is that they didn't join the LS 'till later, while I joined at the formation, and then have to go away for abit.

    On top of that, assuming a perfect attendance out of everyone, just about almost EVERY SINGLE current tier 2 AND 3 will make it to tier 1 before I will. Now you tell me just how is that "Dedicated = lotting priority"? This is why I can't help but feel like I'm being punished for something I have no control over?

    As for making lotting rule for beau/xarca harder. To be blunt, it feels too much like the higher attend. people trying to secure their chances at getting their AF2 from those places. If you all have agreed that the current tier is sufficient in deciding who can lot on AF2 in the other dynamis, I don't see why there's a need to change that for Beau/Xarca. Obviously, people will still come reguardless of the decision, since this is the only successful NA dynamis LS, but it'll undoubtly leave a sour taste in many people's mouth.

  4. #4

    the harder it is for newer people to get into tier 1.
    ... so, what about the people who just recently got to a level to be able to participate in Dynamis.

    I'll take myself for instance. Let's see... how many runs have you done so far? About 12-14? I forgot, and don't think I need to bother checking. By the time I hit 70-75, I'll have to attend.... about 13 Dynamises before I can even lot on AF2 with a 40% total Dynamis attendance rule. Do you know how demotivating that is to someone? Seriously, if you're going to do it so that people who show a commitment to the Dynamis LS, you need to make a major exception for people like myself. Just a thought.

    Suggestion to implement this kind of exception: Attending four Dynamises in a row w/o missing will allow you to lot on AF2 in the next Dynamis at Tier 2, for people with less than 40% total attendance. For those attending the last six in a row without missing, Tier 1. It's just very, very demotivating to someone to know that they won't get anything for it until they put in over 50 hours of playtime, and even then they're not guaranteed anything. I hope you understand where I'm coming from with this.

  5. #5
    Salvage Bans
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    848
    BG Level
    5

    well geno the LS is pretty full now so hopefully the current members stay with it & we wont have to deal with the "demotivating" rules for new members. we have a good group of players and i hope i dont see the names change so that we can all keep getting better together and clear xcabard.

    besides that, which was the main point... i think all tier1 people are going to disagree with you if we did propose soemthing like that.

  6. #6
    Black Belt
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    5,723
    BG Level
    8

    I like this, and wouldn't have much trouble implementing it. the only issue in my mind is, the fact remains that people who miss 4 straight (or however many) still are not putting in time.
    if you implement that suggestion and they still fit in Tier 1, than they must have put in sufficient time to qualify for Tier 1. people that are really putting in no time at all will still be stuck in 2 or 3.

    while you're here
    (beaucedine maybe too) xarcabard af2 drop rates are ridiculously rare. a lot of people have suggested we somehow make the requirements for lotting on xarc af2 a bit stricter than for the rest of the dynamises. what do you think about this? and how should we do it?
    there's really no way to make that stricter and be fair imo.

    75% attendance is already pretty high, you can move it up to 80, you're going to knock off people like Enitsu (9/12 - 75%), 85, you'd knock off yourself (10/12 - 83.33%). 2 or 3 misses is not a lot, things do happen.

    40% total becomes increasingly more difficult to achieve as the total increases, this naturally makes the requirement more and more difficult to fill as the LS goes on. and this is a good thing. if at this point you're going to change this from 40% to 50% or 60%, it's going to be quite obvious:

    it feels too much like the higher attend. people trying to secure their chances at getting their AF2 from those places.
    if you make this change now, will there also be a change to 80%, 90% when the LS gets to Xarcabard?

    ---

    and Geno, the rules are really no longer geared to be inviting to new comers. because new comers can't attend without 4 cleared anyway. i'm pretty sure the next 4 in a row this LS is going to do will all be Beaucedine/Xarcabard.

  7. #7
    Melee Summoner
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    26
    BG Level
    1

    Any decision on this yet?

  8. #8
    Renegade Philosopher
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
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    4,551
    BG Level
    7

    Any decision on this yet?
    No.

    ~Quicklet

  9. #9
    Melee Summoner
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    26
    BG Level
    1

    With the next dynamis run coming up tomorrow, I hope a decision will be made before then. Just about everything that can be said is said, Sendoh's system is a fair amendment to the tier system, so I don't see why it couldn't be added.

    It's already been over a month since I had first raised questions about this issue, so I hope this can be solved quickly before the next run. It sucks to go and spend 4+ hours for a dynamis run knowing well in advance that you're getting screwed out of even a chance of lotting on your af2.

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