So, I put a Carrie on Vrtra

[Amarok]

So once again, how often do you get to do those 9834792384 SA Steel Cyclones ??

you know how many Blood Pacts a SMN can get off before they fly?

2-3 ?? I think, I've never really timed them, I'm not a SMN.


However it didn't answer my question of how often drk's or war's get to SA WS.

Once a landing for 1200+ if you use antlions to get TP.

[Banigaru]

You don't need 300 TP, Just Martial Scyth or Hagun etc ^_^

[Raineer]

Ok, in that sense you should nerf utsesimi aswell. The higher lvl you get the less shadows it absorbs. Heck it's a lvl12/37 spell, why are you relying on it? Shouldnt you be relying on things more your lvl?

We get paralyze at like level...6? Have to use it to 75 :/

Idk, in a way BST jugs are like their spells, might as well grow with them.

[Vortech]

You guys do realize there is no other jug that is reasonably priced to use at 75BST right? BSTs go thru jugs like crazy and nearly ever jug is capped no where near 75. Its not like u can run around with a stack of amigos that cost 80-120k EACH. Even a stack of 12 Panzers cost 120k... all for something that lasts 1min when its tanking. Pets are a BSTs life line so there MUST be a jug thats reasonably priced to use at 75. Why its carrie idk.. personally after using the same jug for the past year is quit boring. BTW there is no point to using carrie from the regular crabfamiliar till 50ish coz thats when the regular crab caps.

And crabs arent exactly big DDs.. having the only jug readily avaliable to a 75BST and not a DD class pet is a nerf.

[Ankiseth]

Here's an idea....shutup about the convo.

No one seemed to care at all about BST pets until Zigma tested this.

[Hirronimus]

lol Harsh

[NynJa]

Ok, in that sense you should nerf utsesimi aswell. The higher lvl you get the less shadows it absorbs. Heck it's a lvl12/37 spell, why are you relying on it? Shouldnt you be relying on things more your lvl?

We get paralyze at like level...6? Have to use it to 75 :/

Idk, in a way BST jugs are like their spells, might as well grow with them.

Doesnt ParalyzeII exist in the game files though ??

And crabs arent exactly big DDs.. having the only jug readily avaliable to a 75BST and not a DD class pet is a nerf.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/7828/carrie1pi.jpg

If thats what a non-DD pet does...................
Yes, I know amigo has 1000needles, but consider the fact that there are mobs around vrtra.

[Nagamaki]

OK so same screenshot Carrie hit for 16 and 55.. Criticals will do high damage in any situation, a good crit with a GAX or scythe does similar to a non SA WS on Fafnir, crits on mobs that take 0 from melee do over 100.

[Raineer]

Doesnt ParalyzeII exist in the game files though ??

let me know when you see a scroll on the AH :/

[NynJa]

OK so same screenshot Carrie hit for 16 and 55.. Criticals will do high damage in any situation, a good crit with a GAX or scythe does similar to a non SA WS on Fafnir, crits on mobs that take 0 from melee do over 100.

Lets see


hit 16
hit 55
*get blinded*
miss
crit 100


can you hit vrtra like that unbuffed/debuffed ??

[Moggy]

i actually still have a stack of amigo lol anyone want for 1m? X)
i gave one to a jp bst but he said its a present and won't show me amigo hahaha

[Correction]

There are certain items in this game, while being very low level to craft, continue to be useful to level 75 players. To name a few: Prism Powder, Silent Oil, Shihei, Echo Drops.

If you think of Courier Carrie in terms of that same power/craft level balance, there is nothing wrong with it.

I think Sendoh just wants BSTs to spend more on jugs then they do. BSTS would rather use charmed pets every single time, and when they can't they would be happier I think to use Panzer Galahad (even lower cap of woodworking) over Carrie but the HQ rate on that jug is abysmal. Increase the power of other pets and they'll just zerg Tiamat with that pet. Nothing about this 'imbalance' makes being a Beastmaster any easier.

Even if SE changes things so that HQ tigers and Amigo offer comparable damage/cost ratios as Carrie, it wouldn't change that screenshot one bit. Even Rusty hit Vrtra with a level 1 mule and an onion dagger. Sometimes you just get lucky hits. No nerfs are going to change that.

[Quicklet]

Powders, Oils, Shihei, and Echo Drops do not get stronger as you level up. Carrie (and maybe a few other pets) continue to get stronger as you level up without any further expense. The ramp-up in strength of jug pets (perhaps primarily Carrie) as you level up has few comparisons to any other abilities or spells in the game, usually because other abilities and spells still require gear upgrades to remain competitive at higher levels.

The issue here is not with jug beasts for most applications. The issue is with jug beasts being able to do a better job of fighting HNMs than a lot of fully geared melees are. It's a similar problem to RNGs pre-patch. No matter how high level the monster was, their ranged attack was almost always "capped" and they always hit for max damage. Post-patch, it's a lot more realistic, involves more skill, and for what it's worth it's a better change for the game.

BSTs and SMNs need some adjustments to make them more skill-based and progression-oriented. There needs to be some kind of sacrifice involved for a BST to be able to do that much damage to a LV90 or LV92 monster, not 5k. 5k and some really rare, hard to get gear? Maybe, maybe not. Just needs to be looked at and adjusted to something more balanced.

I am 100% in favor of progression-oriented design. Low level gear should be designed for low level encounters and should come from low level activities. High level gear should be designed for high level encounters and should come from high level activities. In the same way that I think peacock charm and speed belt (two of the best items in the game pre-patch, and still really good items post-patch) were mismatched to the difficulty of their encounters pre-patch, I think BST jug pet capability is mismatched to the difficulty in obtaining it, and should be addressed, at least with regard to mobs much higher in level than the pet.

[Correction]

The ramp-up in strength of jug pets (perhaps primarily Carrie) as you level up has few comparisons to any other abilities or spells in the game, usually because other abilities and spells still require gear upgrades to remain competitive at higher levels.

But why is this bad? BST also requires substantial gear upgrades to remain competitive at higher levels, for both charming and accuracy gear. Beastmasters buy Hauberks, Sniper's Rings, elemental staves and Peacock Charms, too. And they STILL can't really melee HNMs because their own physical attacks hit for crap. That some of their jug pets increase in level as they do is a defining characteristic of their job, not unlike Dragoon or Summoner. Force them to spend more on jug pets like Amigo and Galahad and honestly you're just making things take longer to kill because you've just slimmed the odds of damaging an HNM by just one more job. This increasingly seems like a purely economic complaint, and not an inherent imbalance.

I'm all for variety in job function at endgame. I do want to see more of the currently crappy pets like the HQ Lizard (imagine Baleful Glare landing on an HNM). But this is one screenshot and one lucky critical. I didn't see anybody screaming about Onion daggers when Rusty hit Vrtra and got a 0.4 skillup. All anybody does when a MNK posts a 1900 damage Chi Blast on an HNM is say 'nice' and not 'OMG NO SKILL MACRO MASHER.'

People must really hate Beastmasters.

[NynJa]

But why is this bad? BST also requires substantial gear upgrades to remain competitive at higher levels, for both charming and accuracy gear. Beastmasters buy Hauberks, Sniper's Rings, elemental staves and Peacock Charms, too.

you need 2 snipers, a PC and a haub to hit a T mob ?? wow...

I didn't see anybody screaming about Onion daggers when Rusty hit Vrtra and got a 0.4 skillup.

ZOMG HE HIT VRTRA FOR 0 DMG !!!!!
NERF ONION DAGGERS !!!!!!!!!!!111

[Zigma]

But why is this bad? BST also requires substantial gear upgrades to remain competitive at higher levels, for both charming and accuracy gear. Beastmasters buy Hauberks, Sniper's Rings, elemental staves and Peacock Charms, too.

you need 2 snipers, a PC and a haub to hit a T mob ?? wow...

I didn't see anybody screaming about Onion daggers when Rusty hit Vrtra and got a 0.4 skillup.

ZOMG HE HIT VRTRA FOR 0 DMG !!!!!
NERF ONION DAGGERS !!!!!!!!!!!111

You don't always fight T, A lot of the time when you're in a BST pt, you fight stuff IT, a few levels LOWER then whta a traditional PT fights on your same level. If you only have you're Pet doing all the dmg and you're just swinging and not hitting a bit hard, then you're not gonna get no where as far as exp goes.

[Orfeo]

The issue is with jug beasts being able to do a better job of fighting HNMs than a lot of fully geared melees are.

I'm a melee with 20m+ in gear, merits in gaxe, and an abundance of rare/ex gear. Do I think jug's are overpowered? Fuck no.

Like I said-this shit is hard to level. Please level BST past level 9 and then tell me it doesn't deserve to be strong end game.

[Orfeo]

But why is this bad? BST also requires substantial gear upgrades to remain competitive at higher levels, for both charming and accuracy gear. Beastmasters buy Hauberks, Sniper's Rings, elemental staves and Peacock Charms, too.

you need 2 snipers, a PC and a haub to hit a T mob ?? wow...

I didn't see anybody screaming about Onion daggers when Rusty hit Vrtra and got a 0.4 skillup.

ZOMG HE HIT VRTRA FOR 0 DMG !!!!!
NERF ONION DAGGERS !!!!!!!!!!!111

You don't always fight T, A lot of the time when you're in a BST pt, you fight stuff IT, a few levels LOWER then whta a traditional PT fights on your same level. If you only have you're Pet doing all the dmg and you're just swinging and not hitting a bit hard, then you're not gonna get no where as far as exp goes.

lol ya. Level 62 in a 62-64 BST party on cockatrice in cape terrigan. Oh shit, wait, normal parties exp there at 65ish. Starting at about 63 soloing BST is more a waste of time then anything. 2-3k an hour just isn't worth it. Most of a BST's carear from here until 72 will be spent in terrigan on manticores/cockatrice or goobues in boyahda tree. Guess what? cockatrice and goobues con IT++ during these levels.

[Marcatil]

I couldn't get BST past 7 without going insane XD

What about that lv75 jugpet? >.> Or is that more or less a showy thing?

[Orfeo]

Check the price -_-; 70-100k+ each and they last 15 fucking minutes.