Genbu solo o_o

[nivlakian]

I'm going to try to avoid taking sides, but Marcital has said alot of things wrong. Let's try to correct the 'facts'.

1) You can't have a lower Convert timer if you have maxxed Wind MACC Merits - they are in the same category

True

2) BLM has a ludicrously higher INT tier than RDM. Also, BLM has many +Enfeebling as well, which would put their ability to Enfeeble up pretty decent.

False. Taru RDM/BLM has Base INT of 77 at lv75. Taru BLM/RDM has a base INT of 79, BLM/WHM is 76! I'm willing to bet that those same differences carry over to other races though the stat in both cases is lower.

Taru RDM/BLM: http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/rdm75_blm.jpg
Taru RDM/WHM: http://www5.sppd.ne.jp/grendal/FF11/rdm75_whm.jpg

Edit: fixed the pics ~.~

3) Actually, a BLM or DRK's Aspir is likely to yield a LOT more MP gain over time than by comparison to RDM. BLM and DRK have an A+? in Dark Magic, RDM has a...D rating?

A- actually for BLM and DRK... it caps at 269.

4) As per the INT thing, Gravity is INT based. If they sub RDM, they have that spell, not to mention a smaller INT boost from /rdm.

No comments.

5) Fast Cast does not lower recast rate (to my knowledge), it only reduces cast time.

I don't see how so many people fail to realize Fast Cast DOES lower recast timers...

6) BLM get Bind as well, Gravity is RDM-specific. Bind is also INT-based.

So? Refer to #2.
Bind is very unreliable.

7) RDM only get Sleep and Sleep II by default. BLM get Sleep, Sleepga, Sleep II, and Sleepga II, therefore have dominance is ability to control a potentionally unstable situation.

No real comments, but of course RDM/BLM has access to sleepga I.

8 ) Do you do Dynamis? If so you should know damn well BLM Enfeebling Magic isn't remotely "weak," otherwise they'd be eating dirt from consistently resisted, and short-lasted, Sleepga II's. Their INT plays a larger factor than you can even imagine into that spell.

Dynamis Mobs, if they had a rating would probably be Tough except in Dynamis-Xarcabard. This makes them easy to sleep, easy to nuke, easy to hit, etc etc.

In order to enfeeble like a RDM, a BLM sacrifices INT boosts in various slots:
Head: Igqira/Genie Tiara (+10/11)
Body: Wizard's Coat (+10)
Legs: Igqira/Genie Lappa (+10/11)
Neck: Enfeebling Torque: (+7)
Back: Altruistic Cape (+5)
Earring: Enfeebling Earring (+3)
(The last two aren't very common)

RDM base enfeeble at 75 is 276. BLM base enfeeble is 230. It's possible for a BLM to get to RDM base enfeeble, but that's about it. RDM will have a lot more.

9) BLM also have two easily available pieces of Refresh gear: Shaman's and Black Cloak. Yeah, they can use Vermillion too, but if you'll also notice, Avesta uses a lot of items (or at least has them on-hand) to pull this off.

Since when does Shaman's Cloak have refresh?

10) Convert is not a fix-all ability. In fact you're missing the obvious flaw that veteran RDMs acknowledge. Convert gain = Max MP - Healing cost. Yeah, when you Convert you have full MP, however, unless you're feeling really lucky, some people pop off at least one Cure IV which is 88 MP down the drain assuming no Conserve MP kicked in. In an EXP situation this is easily remedied by using one Cure IV, and following up with Drain for the remainder, however, in this scenario it is not practical to rely on RDM's poor Dark Magic for this. Keep in mind RDM do not get Drain/Aspir unless they sub BLM or DRK.

No comments.

11) Avesta subs NIN, therefore no Conserve MP bonus, he is paying full MP cost for all his spells. A BLM/NIN will always have Conserve MP present, not to mention a BLM's MP pool is the 2nd largest by base in the entire game. (Rating of mages: SMN, BLM, WHM, RDM).

Conserve MP + 1mp/tic refresh does not compare at all to RDM Refresh + AF2 hat + Dalmantica. With that setup, a RDM regenerates 100mp/min while on the go.

12) The whole idea with the movement speed is neglible. Yeah, so one is likely easier to obtain than the other. However, you're missing the bigger point again: Using a +% Movement speed item you lose out on a better piece of gear, this goes for both jobs.

Gear swap when you need that better piece of gear after running far enough...

13) Use paragraphs and spaces.

No comment.

14) Stop thinking you know anything about RDM, you know jack shit, and to use the old joke, jack just left town.

No offense, but you don't seem to know alot either based on your statements above.

[Epical]

nivlakian, neither of your screenshots work because of the "..." that's in there.

[Marcatil]

A BLM will likely have higher INT simply because they have specific gears tailored to that job to increase it. RDM does not; race is negligble.

I put a ? mark after that A+, I wasn't sure about the cap for Dark Magic on BLM and DRK. I wasn't going to assume it did.

The words "To my knowledge" are mentioned in that Fast Cast thing you realize this? I don't know everything, I can admit to that, I have no problems in learning something new ya know.

I said Bind was INT based, I did NOT say it was reliable in any way, shape, or form. Gravity isn't reliable either especially with the 1 minute recaster.

Yes, RDM/BLM has Sleepga, however, Avesta is going as RDM/NIN, therefore only Sleep and Sleep II. A BLM/NIN (which is more or less the entire point of this arguement), would have 4 sleep spells available.

If Dynamis mobs (save Xarc) are considered "T" then I'll go solo a few >.>

You are correct about the Shaman's Cloak, my mistake.

While Refresh is an on-the-go thing, also realize that 1) Getting Dalmatica isn't too simple, 2) Getting AF2 hat isn't remotely easy either. You also have to stop and recast Refresh, giving the mob a chance to catch up to you, and, since Refresh costs MP, you don't get the full 150mp regenerated over time (assuming no Conserve MP) as casting it on someone else would.

That's why I said the movement thing was negligble, it's a moot point.

Edit: I don't ever, and will never, claim to be the know-it-all to RDM knowledge. I can accept mistakes, however, with the course that the way this thread is going you can quite see how irritated the populous of RDM are becoming -.^

[NynJa]

1-My appologies on that one...I dont study RDM merit categories.

2-The amount of Enfeebling that is available to BLM will not allow it to compete with that of a RDM. INT aint shit if you lack the enfeebling skill.

3-blm / drk dark magic is A-. rdm/nin (in this case) doesnt get aspir.

4-blm/nin doesnt get gravity, which is probably the most essential tool to soloing mobs that dont sleep.

5-Fast Cast does lower recast time. BLM/WHM Stoneskin = 30 sec. BLM/WHM + Rostrum Pumps Stoneskin = 29 seconds.
Oh shit, maybe you dont know everything you fucking thought you knew about rdm.

6-Bind is so fucking sporadic you'll be lucky to get 3 seconds on anything thats a challenge.

7-Cant cast sleepga's in areas with other mobs, not to mention the cast time on sleepga is substancially longer.

8-Yes, I do dynamis. Mostly as thf though, but I've done it as blm a few times. Dynamis mobs arent exactly IT+++++++.

9-Did I not mention the fact that blm's best refresh is 1mp/tick ?? I think I did...what the heck did you think I was refering to ?? Orange Juice ?? Oh, and by the way, maybe you should take your own advice and level a job before you comment on it and its gear, because Shaman's does not give refresh.

10-How long exactly does it take to restore 88mp with 5mp/tick refresh ?? less than a minute I think.

11-a blm/nin also wont be able to get any spells off. Mobs gonna be in their face and if they happen to get a thunder nuke off, mob will be all up in their face, with no method to get out of range. Not to mention blm/nin doesnt have Haste (spell) and Fast Cast to lower Utsu recasts.

12-movement speed+ is definately not negligible in the process of soloing stuff. The faster you get out of distance, the quicker you can recast. if you run 12% faster than the target, you can DoT it to death without needing any RR pins.

13-k.

14-If I dont know jack shit, then where does that place you....considering you dont even know your main trait, Fast Cast, lowers recast timers ??

[Marcatil]

See previous statements. I didn't openly say "Fast Cast doesn't lower recast timers", what I said was "Fast Cast doesn't lower recast timers (to my knowledge)" - Big difference. This implies I'm accepting the fact already that there is a potential flaw, whereas the former statement would imply I know everything, which I presently, and openly, said I didn't 8)

^See Shaman's Cloak thing, I can admit I'm wrong, it doesn't bother me.

Your turn Elcura 8)

[NynJa]

listen

you cant attempt to chasticize me for being "SO FUCKING UNKNOWLEDGEABLE" to rdm for not having leveled it when you dont have the knowledge on the basics of said job.



once again:

I know what Fast Cast does, and rdm isnt my main job, or leveled past 36 for that matter.
You did not know what Fast Cast does up untill five minutes ago, and rdm is your main job, yet you attempt to chew me out for talking shit on a job that "I know nothing about".



How can you attempt to hold credibility on your main job when someone like me, a piece of shit like me, an idiot like me who talks shit on a job he's never leveled...knows the basics while you dont ?

[Marcatil]

Because I can click on Merit Points > Categories > Red Mage, and read what RDM specific merits are present

[nivlakian]

A BLM will likely have higher INT simply because they have specific gears tailored to that job to increase it. RDM does not; race is negligble.

Like what? Pretty much everything I wear as BLM is wearable by RDM except JSE for obvious reasons.

RDM vs BLM
Head: Mahatma hat vs Demon Helm (+1)
Body: Errant/Mahatma Hpl vs Errant/Mahatma Hpl
Back: Rainbow/Prism Cape vs Rainbow/Prism Cape
Waist: Penitent's Rope vs Penitent's Rope
Hands: Errant/Mahatma Cuffs vs Errant/Mahatma Cuffs
Legs: Errant/Mahatma Slops vs Errant/Mahatma Slops
Feet: Wise Pigaches (+1) vs Rostrum Pumps/Zenith Pumps (+1)
Earrings: Phantom (+1)/Morion (+1)/Abyssal vs Phantom (+1)/Morion (+1)/Abyssal
Ammo: Phantom Tathlum vs Phantom Tathlum
Rings: Snow Rings vs Snow Rings
Neck: Philomath Stole/Prudence Torque vs Philomath Stole/Prudence Torque

Edit: Fixed the listing a little

Where is this huge gear advantage for INT? Looking over it, it seems if both jobs wanted to INT whore, BLM wins by 1 and then add in the base INT difference between jobs (same race) for another 2. Too bad in that setup, a BLM is 46 points of enfeebling behind a RDM. This means depending on the difficulty of the monster in question, a RDM can INT based enfeeble it better than a BLM.

If Dynamis mobs (save Xarc) are considered "T" then I'll go solo a few >.>

I wouldn't be surprised if you did honestly considering they are so easy to sleep. It's just no one would care to give you the time to get the job done most likely.

They hit hard and use 2hrs, but in terms of resist rates, evasion, and such they seem like Tough to me... VT at best.

[NynJa]

I can do that too....

does that make me RDMGOD ?

[Marcatil]

Hmm, would throwing AF2 tip the scale of INT any way? I'm not familiar with BLM AF2, and not the numerical stats for RDM AF2 either ('cept the gloves, I have those ) If it's really THAT close numerically, imo there needs to be a slightly better alter in that tier.

'course, BLM will always own RDM when it comes to nukes <.<

[nivlakian]

No... BLM AF2 gives no advantage.

Legs has +3 INT and boots has +2. The rest has no INT whatsoever.

[Marcatil]

No... BLM AF2 gives no advantage.

Legs has +3 INT and boots has +2. The rest has no INT whatsoever.

Ew... What about a Conserve MP bonus? Or was that BLM JSE body? <.< There's crap for +INT boots for RDM really... Being Elvaan I can at least get a couple points from RSE feet -.-; Errant for using white-magic spells :3

[nivlakian]

Copied from mysterytour:

Sorcerer's Petasos (head)
MP+23 Enfeebling magic skill +5 Elemental magic skill +10 Enmity-2

Sorcerer's Coat (body)
MP+12 Elemental magic skill +5 Enmity-2 Adds "Refresh" effect

Sorcerer's Gloves (hands)
MP+24 Dark magic skill +10 Enmity-2 Bonus damage added to magic burst

Sorcerer's Tonban (legs)
MP+13 INT+3 Enmity-2 Elemental magic affected by day

Sorcerer's Sabots (feet)
MP+18 INT+2 Enmity-1 "Conserve MP"+5


About boots... Wise Pigaches (+1) has +4 (+5) INT for RDM.

[Nirokun!]

I should solo genbu on smn

[Enkidu]

I don't think people understand that the main reason people who play other jobs want RDM to be nerfed (due mainly to Avesta's feats) is because even with the best of the best equipment and skill, there is no possible way for any of us to accomplish what a RDM can. Can you understand that?

While any (taru) RDM can proclaim that someday, with the right equipment and knowledge of the game, he/she can solo Genbu, I cannot. Is that fair? If so, why is that fair? Was it particularily hard to level RDM to 75? Is it, when compared to other "best of the best" pieces of equipment, particularily harder for RDM to get this gear? Are RDM's shunned from endgame activities? Well the answers are obviously no, no, and no. All I'm saying is that a RDM's potential is horribly skewed in their favor. Not surprising that most if not all of the "RDM's should not get nerfed" supporters are RDM's.

Can we agree that the potential of a RDM is unbalanced or should we all just agree that RDM is fine because you play the job and you don't want to see it changed? Hmm...

I don't want to see RDM ruined, but there is no reason whatsoever that any RDM should be able to solo the type of monsters that Avesta has soloed. The nerf in question shouldn't change the way run-of-the-mill RDM's play (that'd be all you 'RDM is perfect the way it is' people), but it should end this nonsense of soloing monsters that are extremely tough for a single party (or more) to take on.

[Raineer]

I don't think people understand that the main reason people who play other jobs want RDM to be nerfed (due mainly to Avesta's feats) is because even with the best of the best equipment and skill, there is no possible way for any of us to accomplish what a RDM can. Can you understand that?

Paladins can't cast Thunder IV
Nerf BLM

I don't want to see RDM ruined, but there is no reason whatsoever that any RDM should be able to solo the type of monsters that Avesta has soloed. The nerf in question shouldn't change the way run-of-the-mill RDM's play (that'd be all you 'RDM is perfect the way it is' people), but it should end this nonsense of soloing monsters that are extremely tough for a single party (or more) to take on.

Please explain what you intend to take away that doesn't effect our play (for example, how others rely on our play).

He does 99% of this from Bio2, Refresh, Gravity, and the ability to sub Utsusemi and equip a Duelist Tabard and Dalmatica. That is ALL he uses (plus RR gorgets for some NM's.)

If you're going to call for change, please come with a suggestion on how to do it. Do you suggest RDM no longer be able to use these abilities and spells without being in a full party?

[Chumm]

A suggestion:
Bio and Dia should not be guaranteed to stick. You get skillups casting them, yet it takes 0 skill to stick either spell. Gimpy Dark Magic skill RDMs can use Bio just as well as BLMs as a DoT. Make the RDMs use Poison or Dia with a decent chance of resist (and mob regen taking over their DoT making it hard to impossible to DoT a mob forever). I'd take the sacrifice of having my Bios resisted if it meant balance.

Anyway, that's just a suggestion. Really I think it's fine as it is and Avesta owns for having the patience and skill to pull this off. He has a king body and Xarc AF2 piece, and they're doing more for him than they are for many others. More power to him.

[Raineer]

A suggestion:
Bio and Dia should not be guaranteed to stick. You get skillups casting them, yet it takes 0 skill to stick either spell. Gimpy Dark Magic skill RDMs can use Bio just as well as BLMs as a DoT. Make the RDMs use Poison or Dia with a decent chance of resist (and mob regen taking over their DoT making it hard to impossible to DoT a mob forever). I'd take the sacrifice of having my Bios resisted if it meant balance.

Anyway, that's just a suggestion. Really I think it's fine as it is and Avesta owns for having the patience and skill to pull this off. He has a king body and Xarc AF2 piece, and they're doing more for him than they are for many others. More power to him.

I would certainly be ok with that suggestion, I don't understand why it was a guaranteed stick in the first place.

Maybe even seperate the 2 spell tiers... Bio/Dia are guaranteed to stick, however Bio2/Dia2 are "beefed up" versions of the same spells, so they are not guaranteed to stick. I guess in theory you could still do the same solos with Bio1 doing like 3hp/tick but that's quite a nerf from 10hp.

[Zantai]

Lets nerf every job until they are all exactly the same and can all do exactly the same things! Then the game will be fun!

[Marcatil]

BLM acquaintance of mine is doing similar things now. He's soloed When Hell Freezes Over, BugBoy, and some other ENM. He went for Zippy last night, dunno if he won. We duoed Windy m6.2 too (more or less b/c I needed the thing <.<) 8)