Max Shield skill. Is it worth it?

[Xavier]

We use pld for everything and we do ok.

[Demetrios]

against Weapons in sky I block about 1/20 to 1/25

Ok, so let's say on average 70% damaged is negated a shield block.

You get hit 19 times for 100 damage and then one time for 30 damage with a Kaiser Shield.

1930 damage taken

You get hit 20 times for 80 damage with a Terra's Staff.

1600 damage taken

Let's say a respectable HNM paladin somehow convinces himself stacking AGI is superior in some slots to HP, enmity, vit, -% physical damage taken thus you're getting a 1/5 proc rate.

You get 4 times for 30, 16 times for 100.

1720 damage taken



I still can't see how a Kaiser Shield would be superior to a Terra's Staff unless shield block procs around 1/3 to 1/4 of the time. This is speaking in HNM terms where dealing damage as a Paladin beyond an initial Spirits Within isn't a factor. Tiamat will hit me with -35% physical damage, 77+80 VIT, and 700-800ish defense for a low end of 120 to a high end of 200. Without Terra's staff Tiamat would hit me for 144-240 damage. Are there any PLDs out there who have tanked Tiamat or Jormungand on PLD/WAR that can testify that having a shield equiped is superior to -% physical damage of the Terra's Staff?


last edit... stop with the stupid PLD vs NIN stuff, both jobs are sexy =p
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/20/sig9lr.gif

[Russta]

We use pld for everything and we do ok.

As we use Ninja's for everything and do ok. If your LS is set up to support your choice of tank it gets to a point where it doesn't even become situational.

[kasber]

Before the patch, having capped Shield was worth it. After the patch it really does not matter considering either way you will be taking Dmg. Once your shield Skill hits about 240 (pre patch) it will kick in enough to save quite a bit of mp per fight. After the patch you shield skill kickes in but instead of taking 0 dmg you are taking 30-40 dmg wich still eats up mp...

[savageboy]

its not about which takes a little more or less damage. its that cap shield with sword can hang with the dmg reduction staff tanking WITH adding the 20-25 def and extra hate and stats that u can use with shield also combined with the spirits within you can do. basically if you can survive easily with sword and shield it will altogether benefit your mages with an easier and faster kill...

[Heian]

Yeah I don't think its feesible on the wyrms Demtreios. Honestly I have no experience tanking those what so ever, so I never tried to imply it would be superior. I know that lack of VIT and Enmity would be shit, but now I am starting to wonder if PLD/NIN + Constant TA's + Hotroi + Tatami Shield and enough AGI if it could work. Maybe have two PLD/NIN with this setup, but the Wryms AoE too much for me to think it could work. Like kasber said though, pre patch, this might have worked. Post Patch, very iffy for most HNM. Maybe some Cover action with Relic body could make that work though...

I think it would work great for Weapons in sky, but I honestly do not have the time to cap shield in a short amount of time. It's intresting but I am starting to think the patch was more of a nerf for PLD than an improvement like I first thought.

That's the only reason I can tell PLDs have shitty AGI, no evasion, very low crit rate, and also so we dont not perry and block everything.

[savageboy]

you must be crazy to think it was a nerf...shield almost never came into play before. it was just a lucky evade here and there. they fine tuned the shield system so you can adjust and actually get use out of it. tanking wyrms you should have 2 whm/smns and we even use brd/smn in tank team. sometimes u are unlucky to get double attack during 2 hr tiamat but deaths are pretty rare.

very few ppl actually have the high cap, merit and eq needed to get the best use out of everything but im puttin money on the ppl who do...dont use earth staff to straight tank.

[Demetrios]

Do you know anyone with all of those prerequisites that can speak on the issue?

[savageboy]

you dont need cap shield for it to be effective

anything above 260 would suffice...shield + eq is dirt cheap or free. i have every one of those items and most of the plds (4/5) in our ls have 260+shield not inc merits. so yes i do know ppl with those prerequisites seeing as they are easily attainable considering you play pld enough to lvl your shield.
and like i said we do those types of setups with little or no deaths on most if not all mobs that arent kited

[Nev]

I wrote this in our private forums

Shield block efficiency (how often you shield block) is dependent on 2 stats:

1) Shield Size - a hidden stat for each and every shield, of a value between 1 and 4. Using a "small" shield of size 1 will make you shield block frequently, size 2 shields less, size 3 shields even less and a "big" size 4 shields the least.
2) Shield Skill - listed as a defensive combat skill. For Paladin this caps at 276 with an A+ rating. Higher shield skill will result in a higher rate of shield blocking.

Shield block damage reduction is solely dependent on the hidden shield size stat.
A shield block with a size 1 shield gives 20% physical damage reduction.
A shield block with a size 2 shield gives 40% physical damage reduction.
A shield block with a size 3 shield gives 60% physical damage reduction.
A shield block with a size 4 shield gives 80% physical damage reduction.

The following items can be used to enhance shield skill for Paladin:
Kaiser Schaller: +6 (from Seiryu, Koenig Schaller gives +5)
Shield Torque: +7 (Amphibian Assault BCNM)
Knight's Earring: +5 (AABC)
Buckler Earring: +3 (You Are What you Eat ENM)
Gallant Leggings: +10 (AF1 Feet)
Master Shield: +10 (Southern Shadow NM)
Light Buckler: +5 (An Undying Pledge quest)

Light Buckler is better than Master Shield for shield block efficiency, as Master Shield is size 2, and Light Buckler size 1, that size point means more that the 5 shield skill difference.
Alternatives to Light Buckler for skill up are Sipar (from Adamantoise), Highlander's Targe (from Overlord Bakgodek) or any stage of Relic Shield (Dynamis-Jeuno).

You can also put 3 upgrades into shield as a defensive combat skill (6 merit points), to boost it by another 6 points.

So the maximum possible is 323, however Kaiser Schaller is extremely rare and Master Shield is not worth it, so you should be able to get up to 317 using a light buckler.

The prevalent theory is evasion is calculated before shield blocking, if you successfully evade an attack it does not even bother to calculate a shield block, so wearing minus AGI and evasion gear is beneficial to skilling up shield. The two main things you will want to use are a Haubergeon for -20 evasion and a Cavalier's Mantle for -10 evasion. You evasion will cap at 225 long before shield, so you should have 195 shield most of the time when skilling it up.

My favorite mobs to skill on were Aerns in HuXoi and RuHmet. They hit fast, they are high tier and will take you to cap, the MNKs and NINs are awesome when they put on bracelets. Straight tank MNK 2 hours in Dynamis with a shield too. Straight tank any MNK NM's hundred fists with a shield and invincible if you have to.



Now I am shield capped, I tend to shield tank using a koenig schaller and knight's earring only, plus I have one upgrade, giving me 288 shield skill.

I find using the following shields will make me block as follows, fighting IT++ Aerns in Garden of Ru'Hmet.

Sipar, Highlander's Targe and Light Buckler (size 1): blocks roughly every 4 hits. (~5% total damage reduction)
Master Shield (size 2): blocks roughly every 5-6 hits. (~7.25% total damage reduction)
Koenig Shield (size 3): blocks roughly every 6-7 hits. (~9.2% total damage reduction)
Tatami Shield (size 4): blocks roughly every 7 hits. (~11.4% total damage reduction)

Piling on shield skill gear improves these rates ever so slightly but sacrifices other stats, especially HP, that make it not worthwhile imo.

So basically, the damage reduction, even when couple with a Durandal or Tutelary is never gonna be as good as a Terra Staff which is guaranteed 20% physical damage reduction.

However, I personally believe, unless fighting something that hits for 150+ every hit, the extra hate that you hold using a sword (Justice Sword, Joyeuse, Durandal, Tutelary or Hrotti) and Tatami or Koenig Shield is worth it. SE seem to keep boosting the damage that can be put out by melee, BLM get more and more psychotic, but they do not generally increase the ways that you can hold hate as a PLD I will always use Koenig Shield when kiting something simply for the emnity.


The Relic Shield:

As far as I am aware, noone on any server has fully upgraded yet, a JP Galka named Garcon is the first to reach Ancile (penultimate upgrade) to my knowledge.

All levels of the relic shield, including the fully upgraded Aegis, have a size of 1 (20% damage reduction).

They are all confirmed, up to Ancile inside Dynamis, to block at the same rate as level 1 shields and give 20% physical damage reduction on blocks.

It is speculated the fully upgraded Aegis will have enhanced shield block rate or physical damage reduction on shield blocks.

Other stuff known:

Inside Dynamis, Ancile has "Enhanced Shield Bash" that makes shield bash do x10 base shield bash damage (~230). Guardian Ring adds 10 damage to this with latent active, not 10x10. It also does AoE stun.

If the fully upgraded Aegis works as a standard level 1 shield for shield block rate and physical damage reduction, and does AoE stun shield bash, Square Enix is more retarded than anyone believed possible.

[savageboy]

thank you...theres your "proof"

like i said it wont be par with earth staff but the other benefits it gives makes it more than worth the effort/sacrifice

[Shyla]

Demetrios, just curious how long you've been playing. You have godly gear which ppl dream about and sell their house for. And what server, a lot of that gear is like JP only on Bahamut =/ Just wanted to say nice gear though

[Aribeth]

I also agree that the Earth Staff > Sword & Shield.

I do switch to Hrotti and Kaiser Shield for the CoP Wyrms when they are in the air (especially Tiamat) as it makes the provokes stronger. We use PLD/WARs and WAR/WHMs for tanking the dragons. We've done just 2 PLD/WARs even but usually got 1 PLD/WAR and 2 WAR/WHMs.

[Heian]

Nev, If relic shield / Ageis works the way you say, and the way I am thinking with even more possible latents (i.e. Caliburn > Excalibur) then it is quite possible, no it is the end all way to tank. But only a handful of PLDs on all servers will ever get that. It's sad really, because SE may have just made PLDs overpowered, if you managed to get Ageis and Excalibur.

[Demetrios]

Demetrios, just curious how long you've been playing. You have godly gear which ppl dream about and sell their house for. And what server, a lot of that gear is like JP only on Bahamut =/ Just wanted to say nice gear though

Since the US PC release. The server is Cerberus, where most of the JPs have lives and the NA cheat to win pulls and have monopolized Tiamat and the ground kings for over the past year.

[Nev]

Thing is, all relic weapons gain their hidden latents in their penultimate form in Dynamis, do a KotR with Caliburn in Dynamis, you get the crazy regen etc. Garcon has not seen anything like that in Dynamis, when he shield bashes or any time. He has even tried shield bashing to chain with weaponskills, nothing works.

It is speculated the shield bash could do 2K damage and AoE stun on Aegis, as this is what the Animated Shield does when you fight it, as opposed to the animated weapon which will do the relic WS.

Logic would dictate at the moment that the stats on Aegis will be:

DEF: 40
Shield Size: 1
Magic Damage Reduction -25%
Enhances Shield Bash: 10x damage and hidden effect AoE stun.

To be honest, most situations I would use Tatami, or Koenig over that. Macro that in if for shield bash there was nothing AoE stun would aggro, use it for Tiamat in the air for the -25%, that is it =T

[Demetrios]

Has he stated how much currency was required for each upgrade? I heard rumors that each was less than usually required by relic weapons.

[Heian]

Since the US PC release. The server is Cerberus, where most of the JPs have lives and the NA cheat to win pulls and have monopolized Tiamat and the ground kings for over the past year.

Off topic, but I lol'd in real life.


EDIT: On topic, I was afraid of that then Nev. That they might do it like that but time will tell I guess.

[Nev]

Relic Shield -> Bulwark:
1 Silverpiece
1 Jadeshell
1 100 Byne

Bulwak -> Dynamis Shield:
4 Silverpiece
4 Jadeshell
4 100 Byne

Dynamis Shiled -> Ancile:
Erm, cannot remember, it was either 15, 16 or 20 of each

Ancile -> Aegis:
33 Silver
33 Jade
33 100 Byne

This is were Garcons was talking about it http://garcons.way-nifty.com/ - basically says he tried everything he could think of to change the enhances shield bash, but it was still x10 damage, AoE stun, would not chain.
He is on Unicorn.

[Demetrios]

Ah, so like 10 million (depending on your server) less than a weapon :/

3->4 is 20 of each; ;