Magic Accuracy..... explain plz.........

[Nikkei]

/comfort Nikkei

lol why poor me? I had a pair of NQ braconi but the LS gave me an HQ set. I do find them to be useful so there is no " ", I use mahatma slops for enfeebling on mobs I have no resistance issues on so that I am getting the potency from the mnd and int. If I start to get resisted repeatedly later in the fight on let's say for example Nidhogg, I pop those pants on and try again and it seems to work for me. (*'-')b It's not 100% but I've definitely had good experiences with them.

[Raineer]

Wise Gear is mostly a gimp set for people that don't want to make enfeebling macros.

Translated = Mahatma Slops add the potency of 8 INT/MND to your debuffs. How much would a melee pay to have pants with +EIGHT STR?

Mahatma 4tw

[Carbon]

Let's take a look at Alk<tab> Bracelets. There's your answer (on up to the +11 STR ones for like... 50m).

[XaocRamuh]

Magic Acc. can be compared to Melee Acc. or Evasion. Its better to have skill then Acc. Magic Acc. just improves your chances of landing the spell, it doesn't improve the chance to deal more DMG.

[Eromenos-Ifrit]

go on blm or sub blm and then go to use Elemental seal, up at the top of the screen it describes it as "Enhancing the Accuracy of the next spell". So i'm guessing on things like balista magic acc is useless since they are all the same lvl, but magic accuracy owns for blms and rdms when fighting HNM that you get resisted alot on. That's why this new "god set" of gear for mages has so much of it. (i think 18% magic ACC total if i remember right and +5 to all magic skills if you have the full set on). Basically it would stop that random nuke for next to nothing from happening as much.

Rdm was the first to have this in JSE since they use all magics. now they are intruducing it to a full set of gear worn by blm whm rdm and smn. IMO magic acc will be the shit for blms. I think when this set becomes more avalible you'll see blms wearing this full set over alot of the standard gear when it comes to HNM that have serious magic evasion. i'd take 18% of an elmental seal on all spells and +5 on all magic skills, over +20-25int that might only add like another 30-40damage.

Edit: and it does up the chances of doing more damage when you think of how persistant resists can be a hastle. I mean speaks as a 75BLM with hq out the ass, and merits in elemental magic, and seeing spells get resisted persistantly, magic accuracy would definatly be better. So you do like 50 less damage per max hit, but isn't getting more max hits from your spell work out to more damage?

[edgarfigaro]

Magic Acc. can be compared to Melee Acc. or Evasion. Its better to have skill then Acc. Magic Acc. just improves your chances of landing the spell, it doesn't improve the chance to deal more DMG.

Umm, magic skill adds no damage whatsoever. So...your comparison...not right.

My personal opinion: it's like -damage % versus -breath/physical/magic damage %...it just adds to all magic skills. But there's not much magic acc gear out there for blm that I can test on (grammacy cape isn't enough to use in a test because I'd have to do 1000+ casts just to get a statistically significant test set).

[nivlakian]

Magic Acc. can be compared to Melee Acc. or Evasion. Its better to have skill then Acc. Magic Acc. just improves your chances of landing the spell, it doesn't improve the chance to deal more DMG.

I don't think they are comparable. In the melee world, skill affects both acc and atk (potency i suppose you could say). In the mage world, skill is your accuracy only (as +ele skill for example does not affect unresisted damage). Therefore, Magic Acc and skill would do the same thing (avoiding issues as to whether or not Magic Acc is considered a % or whatever).

[Raineer]

Magic Acc. can be compared to Melee Acc. or Evasion. Its better to have skill then Acc. Magic Acc. just improves your chances of landing the spell, it doesn't improve the chance to deal more DMG.

I don't think they are comparable. In the melee world, skill affects both acc and atk (potency i suppose you could say). In the mage world, skill is your accuracy only (as +ele skill for example does not affect unresisted damage). Therefore, Magic Acc and skill would do the same thing (avoiding issues as to whether or not Magic Acc is considered a % or whatever).

Devil's advocate:

Elemental Skill = 0 damage increase

Dark Magic Skill = *definate* damage increase

Enfeebling Skill = Do we have any idea?

Hard to ever quantify if your debuffs proc more with raised enfeebling skill since debuffs are a mystery to most anyways. My recommentaion is to merit the hell out of Enf Skill and pick your favorite elemental accuracy from the RDM category and cap that as well. Then go with a MND build where you can't equip skill (or elem staff).

I do alright on anything in the game with that, barring the real sky gods...babies are easy to debuff.

[Eromenos-Ifrit]

test it.

Mages can test spells easily. Take a low lvl mob (you will 1 shot it).

Cast your spell on it with zero gear. (resist will not be an issue) and you'll see the spells capped damage. (repeat this several times and you'll see the same damage)

Now add all your gear. and respeat with exact same mobs. try with magic acc, and try with skill raising.

I can tell you magic acc will not make it hit for more on those mobs since magic acc **IS** elemental seal, as i've said before. Go look up at the top of your screen next time you go to use it.

I can't honestly say elemental skill would raise damage cap either though.


As for HNM, those things help you land your hits. since they have high magic eva / resistance. doesn't mean they have high magic defense though, just high chance to resist.

Here is black magic formula:

----------------------- -------------------------------

Black magic spell calculation

Elemental spell damage (ESD)
INT Difference Factor (IDF)
Spell Damage Factor (SDF)
Spell Damage Bonus (SDB)
Elemental Staff Bonus (ESB)
Spell Damage Constant (SDC)
Magic Attack Bonus (MAB)

Main Formulas
=============
ESD = [ (IDF * SDF) + SDC ] * MAB

IDF = (Caster INT - Enemy INT)

SDF = SDB * ESB


INT Difference Factor (IDF) Explained
=====================================

It is possible that enemy INT is higher than caster INT, in that case the

resultant value will be negative from the subtraction.

If the difference between enemy and caster INT exceeds Preliminary Threshold

Value (PTV), the following

formula will be used for IDF instead)

IDF = [ (Caster INT - Enemy INT) + PTV ] / 2

For I series spells, here are their PTV values:
Spell PTV
===============
Earth I 21
Water I 30
Air I 41
Fire I 51
Blizz I 62
Thunder I 79

3. If the INT difference exceeds the Ultimate Threshold Value (UTV), then the

IDF value will be capped and the following formula applies:

IDF = (UTV + PTV) / 2

For I series spells, here are their UTV values: (-- indicates not tested yet)
Spell UTV
===============
Earth I 53
Water I --
Air I --
Fire I --
Blizz I --
Thunder I --

Spell Damage Factor (SDF) Explained
===================================

SDF = SDB * ESB

ESB = 1.0 for no elemental staffs equipped (or not for the right spell)
1.1 for Normal Quality elemental staffs (matches with spell)
1.15 for High Quality elemental staffs (matches with spell)

Spell SDB
===============
I Series 1.0
II Series 1.0
III Series 1.5
III(ga) 1.5
IV Series 2.0
Ancient 2.0

Magic Attack Bonus (MAB) Explained
==================================

MAB Table
=========
Level Job MAB
10 BLM 1.2
30 BLM 1.24
50 BLM 1.28
70 BLM 1.32
20 RDM 1.2
40 RDM 1.24

Moldavite Earring (+0.05 to MAB)
Zenith Glove (+0.05 to MAB)

Spell Damage Constant (SDC) Explained
=====================================

Spell Earth Water Wind Fire Blizz Thunder
I 5 11 20 30 41 55
II 78 90 108 128 150 173
III 210 236 265 295 320 345
IV 381 410 440 472 506 541
III(ga) -- -- -- -- 642 697
Ancient 577 630 552 657 526 603


Elemental Day Effect on Damage
==============================

If day is the same as spell element:
ESD = ESD * 1.1 (i.e. Fire Day casting Fire Spell)

If day is the opposite of spell element:
ESD = ESD * 0.9 (i.e. Fire Day casting Blizz Spell)


Verification
==========================

Since,

ESD = [ (IDF * SDF) + SDC ] * MAB

IDF = (Enemy INT - Caster INT)

SDF = SDB * ESB

Therefore,

IDF = 129 - 1 = 128

SDF = 2 * 1 = 2.0

ESD = [ (128 * 2) + 541 ] * 1.37 = 1091.89 (drop decimals) = 1091

(thanks shadowstalker for posting this forumla a long time ago)

-----------------------------------------

Now magic accuracy would be like using Elemental Seal and effects that calculation in a different way. Since Elemental seal produces a 100% damage spell. So having more MagAcc would increase the chance of landing spells at unresisted levels instead of having to calculate so many Me Vs Mob stat factors.

[Raineer]

Elemental seal isn't all that though. I'm not gimp and I've had a Thunder3 MB elemental-sealed for 73 dmg on a light chain just because I went with my BOOM macro (Zenith mitts, Republic Circlet, Mahatma Slops) instead of skill (chapeau, mst.cst.bracelets, duelist tights). That EXACT same fafnir I did a MB non-sealed with skill macro for 954.

I get all your formulas and stuff. If you're just talking about nuking you can always argue that skill/acc build for free-nukes is better because of a DoT type discussion...

However my statement was.. Elemental Skill has NO effect on max damage. Dark Skill has 100% effect on max damage. Do we really have any idea what Enfeebling Skill has to do with debuff potency?

[Eromenos-Ifrit]

I'm only 75whm 75blm right now, give me a month or 2 when my rdm gets up there and i'll actually take the time to find those things out lol

[nivlakian]

Magic Acc. can be compared to Melee Acc. or Evasion. Its better to have skill then Acc. Magic Acc. just improves your chances of landing the spell, it doesn't improve the chance to deal more DMG.

I don't think they are comparable. In the melee world, skill affects both acc and atk (potency i suppose you could say). In the mage world, skill is your accuracy only (as +ele skill for example does not affect unresisted damage). Therefore, Magic Acc and skill would do the same thing (avoiding issues as to whether or not Magic Acc is considered a % or whatever).

Devil's advocate:

Elemental Skill = 0 damage increase

Dark Magic Skill = *definate* damage increase

Enfeebling Skill = Do we have any idea?

Hard to ever quantify if your debuffs proc more with raised enfeebling skill since debuffs are a mystery to most anyways. My recommentaion is to merit the hell out of Enf Skill and pick your favorite elemental accuracy from the RDM category and cap that as well. Then go with a MND build where you can't equip skill (or elem staff).

I do alright on anything in the game with that, barring the real sky gods...babies are easy to debuff.

Well, his analogy does not work on elemental magic at least.

I won't comment on drain since often I'm not hurt when I use it but can you really say it's a definate damage increase?

Considering a RDM has E skill, I'm sure there is a noticeable difference for their drains and aspirs on hard things, but can you tell if it was what the game considers an unresisted one or a damage increase?

If I go to a low level elemental, my aspirs will vary on it despite wearing skill gear. It is no better than what I see against harder things. So, I wouldn't consider it a damage increase, but at least a better chance to see the higher end of what it can do (ie. accuracy).

As a BLM, when enfeebling something hard, lots of stats are sacrificed for skill to make it land. When I do this for paralyze let's say... sometimes it doesn't even trigger before wearing off. Again, I landed it (by skill), but it doesn't mean much of anything because there was nothing to back it up (stat).

[Eromenos-Ifrit]

from my understanding from talking to a rdm in my ls, not sure how true but seems to make sense, is that enfeebling skill is what makes it land, and int or mnd (depending on spell) helps it land but also dictates how long it will stay active. Like i said, not sure, but just asked a friend about it after all this.

[Raineer]

from my understanding from talking to a rdm in my ls, not sure how true but seems to make sense, is that enfeebling skill is what makes it land, and int or mnd (depending on spell) helps it land but also dictates how long it will stay active. Like i said, not sure, but just asked a friend about it after all this.

I'm 90% that's exactly how it works.

As for Dark Magic skill, yes I'm 100% certain that it's actually skill and not a stat like INT that drives potency.

When you kill Decorative weapons for 100,000xp and then pickup Crimson Hands (and ONLY then decide "hey lets start carrying my Dark Torque") and add 17 skill all the sudden, there's no way it's just a coincidence. Going from never ever ever seeing an Aspir over 100 (even Esealed) before crimson hands to seeing them all the freakin time afterwards indicates that potency is actually driven by skill.

The BLMs and DRKs that I know (that are actually smart enough to run a test) have mirrored the exact same sentiment.

[Eromenos-Ifrit]

no ones disputing how drk magic works though are they? i mean everyone can see the more skill you have the higher you do.

Actually if i remember correctly wasn't there an interview where someone asked "why don't you introduce slow2 paralyze2" and they said how those spells where uncapped and higher your skill it the more it does? i should go hunt for it. But i definatly remember them saying it.

[Genosync]

It's all resist based.

Sorry.

Everything in FFXI that's magic skill is all resist based. Enfeebling, Dark, Elemental, Singing--resist. You've got a max you're gonna get on a Drain or Aspir, and you're not going to go over that. What allows you to get closer to that maximum value is your skill.

INT is the potency of such Dark Magic spells.

[Raineer]

INT is the potency of such Dark Magic spells.

No

[nivlakian]

from my understanding from talking to a rdm in my ls, not sure how true but seems to make sense, is that enfeebling skill is what makes it land, and int or mnd (depending on spell) helps it land but also dictates how long it will stay active. Like i said, not sure, but just asked a friend about it after all this.

I'm 90% that's exactly how it works.

As for Dark Magic skill, yes I'm 100% certain that it's actually skill and not a stat like INT that drives potency.

When you kill Decorative weapons for 100,000xp and then pickup Crimson Hands (and ONLY then decide "hey lets start carrying my Dark Torque") and add 17 skill all the sudden, there's no way it's just a coincidence. Going from never ever ever seeing an Aspir over 100 (even Esealed) before crimson hands to seeing them all the freakin time afterwards indicates that potency is actually driven by skill.

The BLMs and DRKs that I know (that are actually smart enough to run a test) have mirrored the exact same sentiment.

Drain and Aspir are randomized.

The amount of HP absorbed from an enemy using the black magic spell "Drain" will be adjusted. The ef‚†ectiveness of the spell will now also be influenced by the day, the weather, and its use during magic bursts.

The amount of MP drained from an enemy using the black magic spell "Aspir" will be adjusted. The ef‚†ectiveness of the spell will now also be influenced by the day, the weather, and its use during magic bursts.

Can you tell how the game determines what is and is not a resisted drain/aspir? Just because it goes over 100 when you added skill could mean it was a damage increase or was what the game considers unresisted dark magic.

Explain then why on a low level enemy do I not ALWAYS see over 100 aspir with A- skill +22? It could be that the skill at some point is only ensuring I see the high end of the potential of aspir and not necessarily that it is considered as "added dmg".

You will see generally better results with drain/aspir using skill and that's all I'm willing to say about it really.

[nivlakian]

You've got a max you're gonna get on a Drain or Aspir, and you're not going to go over that. What allows you to get closer to that maximum value is your skill.

This is what I'm trying to say above, but this is worded more simply lol.

INT is the potency of such Dark Magic spells.

No

I agree with Raineer on that.

[Raineer]

Can you tell how the game determines what is and is not a resisted drain/aspir? Just because it goes over 100 when you added skill could mean it was a damage increase or was what the game considers unresisted dark magic.

100,000xp (at least) worth of Decorative weapons at a certain skill and I never once including elemental seal got a aspir over 100mp. Not once ever.

I add 17 Dark Magic Skill and now it is beyond common to see 100+ aspirs off the exact same mobs ever since, when not using eseal.

Edit: I'll even add to this that I see BLM's and DRK's aspir 150-180, I personally attribute this to skill driving potency. If it was INT driven and I just aren't hitting the cap, an Esealed Aspir for me on a VT mob should EASILY cap at least at 140 if not as high as the DRK/BLM's.