Refund?

[aurik]

Toy yes

Cool, you agree with me.

Now how about some meaningful equipment drops off of 3wyrms prz.

PS. If you're so scared of -hp, try wearing your Wizard Sabots. 10 mp and -1 enmity too!

[Nikko]

No King (KB Aspi Nid) drops are any more "useful" than gaiters. All toys as well.

Is there some utility chart we can check to find out if any given item is useful enough to no longer be considered a toy? What exactly is the standard of useful?

Seems to me your argument isnt really that gaiters are a "toy" (because it would be silly to ignore they have many occasions of usefulness) but rather Kings drop more toys more often.

BLM also have the option of RSE (depending on race) and AF2 over rostrums. WHM have the option of AF2, blessed, and cure clogs over rostrums. Its not silly to be concerned with a 30 HP loss when you already have several pieces of Zenith with more utility than rostrums, given the alternatives.

[aurik]

The thing is, they're NOT useful. They add 12 mp and they let you get from mog house to auction counter faster. For a blm they might as well read "Strider Boots" for all the use they get out of them.

I lol'd when you said they're useful for dynamis. FYI, I am in a dynamis shell which is over 50% black mages. We do fine without gaiters; I would say they wouldn't help at all. Statues already move with a permanent gravity effect, and in our dynamis everything else is asleep. In a traditional dynamis, I hope you have a frontline which actually vokes the mobs that pop instead of letting the mages get decimate.

Also, have fun kiting in the lag that is dynamis.

Now contrast this to one 24hr pop loot:

Zenith mitts are useful. Zenith mitts add MAB, which allow black mages to utilize their MP more efficiently in HNM fights, which is a very important aspect. After all, you don't make magic bursts because they're pretty, you make them to increase MP efficiency.

Weskit is useful. It adds MAB, and conserve MP too. Again, it increases your mana efficiency.

Koenig Body for paladins, Adaman Hauberk for warriors, Dalmatica for Red Mages. These items will all help your team kill tough monsters safer, faster, and ultimately with less effort.

Can you guess which 24h spawn drops ALL of these items (and more)?

Want me to go on with the other useful items dropped by the kings? Ridill? Defending ring? Koenig legs? Crimson mask? You will get great use out of these items at virtually every single endgame encounter FFXI has to offer. These all drop from kings!

And Tiamat drops toys, unremarkable nin/mnk/sam kotes, and loot you can get from BCNMs. And fire crystals.

[Nikko]

If you fail to see the usefulness of gaiters for BLMs in dynamis (as one example) due to your own admitted limited dynamis experience, i wont bother to explain that point to you.

The only real contrast i see you making, is that there are much more items from kings than from Tiamat. For one, you are comparing 3 Mobs to 1, but even reducing it to one vs one i 100% agree that kings drop much more than Tiamat.. thats not even up for debate. The fact that Tiamat is harder and drops less is obviously incomprehensible, but saying his drops are toys (which apparently is equated to 100% uselessnes by your deffinition) is a little much.

If you are going to say toy = uselessness then no i dont think gaiters are a toy, btw. In the context i said they are toys, i said other items were as well, while retaining a degree of utility.


You seem to think that every item that doesnt directly increase a job's A+ skill is useless. +Enfeebling gear is useless to BLMs then?

I'm willing to bet you have very little end game experience, because your coming from an immature perspective of thoery. Sometimes ppl have to deal w/ situations with less than ideal set ups. You ever pulled an all nighter for a day 8 nidhogg, and have less than a perfect PT on claim? BLMs have been main enfeeblers before, WHMs have been main kiters before.

I for one am very happy everytime there is an item added that provides not only great utility for some job's normal situations (BLMs in dynamis) but also increase the adaptability and flexibility of your LS in being able to deal w/ less than "perfect" set ups.

Because, if im wrong and you are a seasoned veteran of the endgame, you would most whole heartedly agree that any fight with the perfect set up is ridiculously easy regaurdless of whether or not anyone has any King loot.

[Not Kuno]

I think the point is that while running faster is nice.. Tiamat drops retarded loot in comparison to kb aspid and faf/nid. The king loot is alot more useful (See: A body, M Body, E Body, Ridill, Aegis, Defending Ring, D Feet (jk! lol)). If you have two tanks, one with Aegis, M body and Defending ring and one without, assuming neither are mentally handicaped you will notice a huge difference. Hardly a toy if you ask me.

[aurik]

If you fail to see the usefulness of gaiters for BLMs in dynamis (as one example) due to your own admitted limited dynamis experience, i wont bother to explain that point to you.

Whoa, hold on there cowboy. Limited dynamis experience? Where do you get that from?

The only real contrast i see you making, is that there are much more items from kings than from Tiamat. For one, you are comparing 3 Mobs to 1, but even reducing it to one vs one i 100% agree that kings drop much more than Tiamat.. thats not even up for debate. The fact that Tiamat is harder and drops less is obviously incomprehensible, but saying his drops are toys (which apparently is equated to 100% uselessnes by your deffinition) is a little much.

I never said they were 100% useless. You're putting words in my mouth here. I said they weren't useFUL for black mages in HNM situations. They're QUITE useful for running around town. I didn't level ninja to 54 for the looks, I did it for the night-time kyahan.

If you are going to say toy = uselessness then no i dont think gaiters are a toy, btw. In the context i said they are toys, i said other items were as well, while retaining a degree of utility.

But the fact of the matter is that they don't make you a better blm. The stats that you use on them when you are actually playing blm and not just running around from location to location is: +12 mp. If you're hard up for MP, why aren't you drooling over Mannequin Pumps, which are 12 MP *and* 1 int? Or your AF, which is 10 MP and -1 enmity?

You seem to think that every item that doesnt directly increase a job's A+ skill is useless. +Enfeebling gear is useless to BLMs then?

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Enfeebling gear is useful for BLMs because they actually utilize it, for sleeps.

I'm willing to bet you have very little end game experience, because your coming from an immature perspective of thoery. Sometimes ppl have to deal w/ situations with less than ideal set ups. You ever pulled an all nighter for a day 8 nidhogg, and have less than a perfect PT on claim? BLMs have been main enfeeblers before, WHMs have been main kiters before.

I for one am very happy everytime there is an item added that provides not only great utility for some job's normal situations (BLMs in dynamis) but also increase the adaptability and flexibility of your LS in being able to deal w/ less than "perfect" set ups.

Because, if im wrong and you are a seasoned veteran of the endgame, you would most whole heartedly agree that any fight with the perfect set up is ridiculously easy regaurdless of whether or not anyone has any King loot.

Well, that's a bet you would lose. Ironically, our last nidhogg win was 7 days ago, at about 4am in the morning, and I think it was day 7 or 8. And LOL @ the idea of kiting nidhogg, even though I know you didn't mean that.

We've also got 3 of the 4 CoP wyrm titles (still haven't attempted Ouryu), including a bunch of kills on Tiamat. Sadly only one pair of gaiters.

I would agree that most of the fights in the game are pretty easy with the perfect setup, and that you will hardly EVER see that setup; KB kills will always be cluttered with goofballs in the kiting path, your only red mage fell asleep after 6th window, you have a glut of melee and no mages, you pulled darters, etc etc.

However I fail to see how one or two black mages running faster will help at all. Oh goodie, none of our crimson paladins are online, quick, go jobchange to BLM/WAR! Right on. Now we're gonna win.

[Nikko]

Well if we arent comparing number of drops (where i already said its stupid tiamat drops 1 item vs a ton from any given king) you can compare items 1 vs 1. A tank w/ koenig body vs one without, or a tank w/ defending ring vs one without... difference isnt very big at all, we have several of those comparisons in my LS all the time see'ing how we have those items and use two tanks on Wyrms.

If tiamat dropped 5-6 different items (guarenteed 2 minimum per kill), complaints about how terrible gaiters are would suddenly fly out the window IMO, because ppl are comparing gaiters VS entire sets of gear from Kings. Obviously you will see a larger increase in performance with a whole set of gear, but any single item is just that.. a single item.

The only item you listed that can have a single handed dramatic effect on a job is probably ridill, but i only say that because of the testimony's of those WAR freak's in the blue mage thread. Gaiters arent far behind, if at all, for increasing a jobs utility vs any single king item. 1mp/tic? (-50hp), 60hp? (no +enmity), 10enfeebling skill?

Talking one on one, gaiters are far from comparitivly "useless", which is the point aurik was making, and i was correcting. Any point being made about the ammount of drops of Kings vs Tiamat is valid imo, though.

[Lockecole]

I agree with Nikko..12% movement is HUGE in so many situations...and FAR better then anything a WHM can wear short of them KNOWING they will be rooted in a spot for 2hours.

Gaiters dont suck...the fact that that's the ONLY good thing he drops is what sucks. Deepening the Wyrm pool would be awesome..but Im sure would result in people camping them even more then they do, which would be scary. I think Jorm should just start dropping random good abjurations so people actually go up there and kill him.

[aurik]

Now you're just talking crazy. Crimson mask no good? Dalmatica no good? Weskit no good? Z.mitts no good? Defending ring no good?

All of these items are FAR more useful when matched up 1v1 against Herald's Gaiters.

[Nikko]

Well since all u want are specific examples...

For dynamis, you said your shell has over 50% BLMs.

Try dynamis with 20-24 ppl, 2BLMs and 1-2 tanks. Lag isnt a horrible problem there, and BLMs solo'ing statues is much quicker / more efficient / more easily done with gaiters.

Not many BLMs or Tanks on? NP! A couple BLM can do dynamis fine (much easier) w/ gaiters.

Since you mentioned crimson paladin's after the talk about Kings, i will assume you were talking about KB. You do NOT need a tank for KB. BLMs w/ gaiters bouncing hate, binding, gravity, is more than enough to win. Not dying it part of a BLMs job. I really cannot believe you havent seen BLMs kiting KB. When a BLM dies, its pretty dehibilitating to the team. (barring you have some abundance of players on 24/7)

No tanks on? NP! BLM can kite and bounce KB fine (more easily) w/ gaiters.

Like i said before, 2 WHM have held fafnir for a good 10 minutes, for ppl to come, simply because they had gaiters. Good WHMs are great survivors, w/ tons of buffs, and a huge pool of MP just to keep themselvs alive.

No team @ xxx NM? NP! Let whm's kite it around until back up comes. (more easily w/ gaiters)

The thing is, they're NOT useful.

Thats where i got "they are 100% useless." because we both know we arent talking about running to the AH, nor was i implying you thought they gave no use to a BLM to run from place to place. I didnt think i would have to add the qualifier "100% useless except when running from place to place" but i will now.

which apparently is equated to 100% uselessnes *outside of running around town or from place to place* by your deffinition

And also, by comparing those other kings drop's utility to gaiters, after JUST expressing that i felt gaiters had a HIGH utility, can in no way be interpretted to me saying "Crimson mask no good? Dalmatica no good? Weskit no good? Z.mitts no good? Defending ring no good?".

[aurik]

Well since all u want are specific examples...

For dynamis, you said your shell has over 50% BLMs.

Try dynamis with 20-24 ppl, 2BLMs and 1-2 tanks. Lag isnt a horrible problem there, and BLMs solo'ing statues is much quicker / more efficient / more easily done with gaiters.

Why yes, my current dynamis shell is composed of 95% spellcasters, most of those black mages. I have done 20-person dynamises in the past, with mostly melee and a few blms. And yes, our strategy for stones was to let the BLMs do the damage to them.

However, it's hardly "quicker/more efficient/more easily done with gaiters". The gaiters give you +12% speed. That's really minor, man. If you're perfect about getting your distance right, it'll save you fractions of a second. It won't make you more mana efficient.

And if you're soloing them...why aren't you wearing igqira feet? *Much* better choice.

Since you mentioned crimson paladin's after the talk about Kings, i will assume you were talking about KB. You do NOT need a tank for KB. BLMs w/ gaiters bouncing hate, binding, gravity, is more than enough to win. Not dying it part of a BLMs job. I really cannot believe you havent seen BLMs kiting KB. When a BLM dies, its pretty dehibilitating to the team. (barring you have some abundance of players on 24/7)

12% run speed at KB is not going to help you as a black mage. The equation is simple. If you are in range of him when he has hate on you, you're pretty much dead. I've died on him with 1500hp+stoneskin because I was too close to him when I boosted and pulled hate. He smacked me once and stunned me, and I was dead before stun wore off. It was extremely sudden, to say the least, and I wasn't in the alliance at the time (rotating 3 monks) so I didn't have anyone watching my hp.

Nevertheless, if you are out of his range and run directly away from him, he will never gain ground on you, and someone else should take hate off you soon enough. An extra 12% run speed is not going to help you because he's already slow (plus gravitied, often) and has pathing issues in the arena, making him easier than Kirin to kite.

Like i said before, 2 WHM have held fafnir for a good 10 minutes, for ppl to come, simply because they had gaiters.

I think this is the most rediculous thing I have heard in a while. "HERALDS GAITERS MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO KITE FAFNIR." Looooool.

[Lockecole]

However, it's hardly "quicker/more efficient/more easily done with gaiters". The gaiters give you +12% speed. That's really minor, man. If you're perfect about getting your distance right, it'll save you fractions of a second. It won't make you more mana efficient.

And if you're soloing them...why aren't you wearing igqira feet? *Much* better choice.

Quote:
Since you mentioned crimson paladin's after the talk about Kings, i will assume you were talking about KB. You do NOT need a tank for KB. BLMs w/ gaiters bouncing hate, binding, gravity, is more than enough to win. Not dying it part of a BLMs job. I really cannot believe you havent seen BLMs kiting KB. When a BLM dies, its pretty dehibilitating to the team. (barring you have some abundance of players on 24/7)


12% run speed at KB is not going to help you as a black mage. The equation is simple. If you are in range of him when he has hate on you, you're pretty much dead. I've died on him with 1500hp+stoneskin because I was too close to him when I boosted and pulled hate. He smacked me once and stunned me, and I was dead before stun wore off. It was extremely sudden, to say the least, and I wasn't in the alliance at the time (rotating 3 monks) so I didn't have anyone watching my hp.

Nevertheless, if you are out of his range and run directly away from him, he will never gain ground on you, and someone else should take hate off you soon enough. An extra 12% run speed is not going to help you because he's already slow (plus gravitied, often) and has pathing issues in the arena, making him easier than Kirin to kite.

Quote:
Like i said before, 2 WHM have held fafnir for a good 10 minutes, for ppl to come, simply because they had gaiters.


I think this is the most rediculous thing I have heard in a while. "HERALDS GAITERS MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO KITE FAFNIR." Looooool.

So there we have it folks. Aurik has no fucking clue about anything when it comes to kiting. Anymore questions?

KB easier to kite then Kirin....lol nice one.

[aurik]

For heaven's sake, KB is killable in rage mode because he's that easy to kite.

[Eaglestrike]

And Kirin has a few long-casting spells that easily let you run out of range of it as well as use moves to increase hate before leaving the range of the spell. This also lets melee's swing away a few times to do more damage. Kirin also has no rage mode at all.

Edit: Kirin also doesn't have en-stun.

[aurik]

KB stops practically every 30 seconds to buff himself with spikes or boost, both useless.

As for en-stun, Kirin has tail smash, that'll ruin your day just as fast.

Stonega4 is fairly comparable to Meteor. I guess KB doesn't have Comet (the single-target meteor that Promathia uses) which is the counterpart to StoneV / Quake.

[Eaglestrike]

And what about the AOE stun move that has the biggest range possible of a mob ws? Stun is a whole lot worse than bind, too. Get bound a pld can flash at the least, maybe try to cure himself. When stunned you're just waiting and hoping you survive.

[Muze]

Stun
Meter
then you see a 2HIT combo sign pop up on top of your head.

The usefulness of an item in the eye of many, I think D.feet are usefull, other mnks think is crap. Is like my blow up dull is a toy and it have its usefullness, but for most other people who have a g/f, dull are completely useless.

[Elcura]

I think you mean doll >.> lol @ that. Umm, how exactly is D.feet usful? It's like 2mil+(depending on server) for -HP +4 acc (or so) and some resist useless status effect that never works, compared to rse feet, fuma's, retsu's and dune boots.

[Muze]

look at it this way:
It's the only feet piece that give +acc and it look better then dune boot. I wear D.hand just because i'm sick and tired of the red kote look.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/muze/gear1.jpg

Mighty morphing power ranger (orange)
Now i just need 5 tarus combine to form a zord.

[Elcura]

whatever floats your boat. I dunno what you fight that you need +8 acc on the hands and feet THAT badly even if it is the only foot piece that gives acc (for 2mil+) there is undoubtably more useful gear and you're really gimping damage if you wear those instead of AF/gigasbrc/kote...

unless you wear them as a fashion statement (lol) then all I can say is you have expensive taste or just need to learn how to .dat swap when you're bored of how ugly/boring something looks (hello errant gear).

edit: looking at the pic again I will admit shura kote look hot, but shura feet look like (and are) shit, thing that depresses people is when you get something useless like shura feet from aspid instead of a good abjuration like m. feet a. body or w body (ok maybe not so much w. body)