Bahamut Thread #3

[Nikko]

the ninja.. since that pld doesnt have cure?

good pld/nin w/ the right support will hold hate better than the nin tho

[Raineer]

Well, ok... I see your point then.

If you would have said "Shadow Ring > Shadow Mantle on Wyrms" then yes I would agree. My opinion on the game goes far beyond CoP wyrms (simply because i'm already bored with them), I have alot more fun just killing good old nids and fafs than i do with the 3 CoP's.

Also for those who do sky skill and use PLD it's kinda cool as well.

[Xrave]

Who holds hate better, assuming you barely get hit by physical attacks at all? A NIN/WAR using provoke and NIN debuffs/nukes to hold hate, or a PLD that relies only on Flash, Rampart, Shield Bash, and Spirits Within.

Probably a Nin in that situation...but then again you either don't know much about Pld or just forgot about Cure IV.

[Xavier]

Shadow mantle is absoluely worthless unless you're using pld/war. In turn, I think pld/war is absolutely worthless and pld/nin is by far better than it. If shadow mantle had a little +hp, then maybe it'd be good in all cases.

PLD/NIN WILL hold hate in optimal settings because flash is as strong as provoke and cure iv is a hell of a lot stronger than an elemental debuff for hate.

Its just a lot easier for a linkshell to toss a ninja at an hnm than a pld/nin, since it requires a more specific setup.

[Septimus]

Well, ok... I see your point then.

If you would have said "Shadow Ring > Shadow Mantle on Wyrms" then yes I would agree. My opinion on the game goes far beyond CoP wyrms (simply because i'm already bored with them), I have alot more fun just killing good old nids and fafs than i do with the 3 CoP's.

Also for those who do sky skill and use PLD it's kinda cool as well.

No one tanks Fafnir with PLDs or NINs anymore. RDM/NIN ftw!

[Litoriceboi]

Who holds hate better, assuming you barely get hit by physical attacks at all? A NIN/WAR using provoke and NIN debuffs/nukes to hold hate, or a PLD that relies only on Flash, Rampart, Shield Bash, and Spirits Within.

With the right set up and a good PLD/NIN, the PLD/NIN will hold hate better than a NIN/WAR

[FFXIFlux]

Shadow mantle is absoluely worthless unless you're using pld/war. In turn, I think pld/war is absolutely worthless and pld/nin is by far better than it. If shadow mantle had a little +hp, then maybe it'd be good in all cases.

That really doesn't make any sense. Why would a few +hp make it good for pld/nin? Besides, +40hp is like 2% more hp. Shadow Mantle is better than that, and again, if you're worried about your HP total at all then the damaged saved from mantle would more than make up for the enmity lost from cape (which you can always macro in anyway.)

[Po]

I believe this is because flux, as I have read, a shadow will absorb one of the 0 damages from the mantle

[BRP]

Some jap strategy I found browsing some jap forums. Don't know or care if its been posted already ;o. It seems pretty obvious, but I just felt like posting it.

[Isildur]

As far as PLD/NIN tanking goes it can probably be done in some cases, but requires a mass amount of +Enmity to balance not having Provoke. I've never tried it before except on wyrms with NIN/WARs always jacking hate anyways. On a scale of 1-10 rating hate controls, i'd put Flash at around 7-8 cause i've never noticed it being as potent as Provoke is. Either way you'd also need Haste and double March songs to take Flash recast down so you could hold hate with it. Using PLD/NIN i'd say that new cape is well worth it over Shadow Mantle, but Shadow Ring is up in the air because it all depends on if you're fighting a mob that does nasty AoE magic over and over. Personally i'd use def. ring + sattva if i went PLD/NIN


Discussing Bahamut 2, that layout seems okay but they didnt put shit about what to do with his summons...i think if you pulled the summons to the other edge of the island and have a WAR/NIN tanking you could minimize damage from both parties (1 focusing on bahamut, 1 on summon) since if you fight them close together you have the risk of getting pounded by Gigaflare + wyrm AoE and screwing up the entire fight.

On a side note...anyone know if these wyrms have weaker defense vs. melee SCs or if mistmelts work on them? and 1 more thing...if it's a JP strategy, why is it in english? =O

[BRP]

Hmm just assumed it was japanese because the forum is 100% japanese.

[Lockecole]

I dont think the argument was wether or not Shadow Ring was better then Shadow Mantle but if any back piece rivaled Shadow Mantle for PLD/NIN or PLD/WAR.

Im confused with the statement "I dont need Shadow Mantle as a PLD/NIN because I never get hit, but I need 40 HP from a cape." Why? Its backwards thinking...you say you dont need the chance of a hit landing for 0 but you need HP. I just cant seem to recall a wyrm that has the ability to drop you quick enough that youd need 40-80HP due to ONLY magically based attacks.

If anythings landing the final blow or killing you in a wyrm fight its having your shadows dropped from an AOE and then getting double attacked. Guess what's gonna save you in that instance? The 40 HP on Valor Cape?
Enmity can be macroed in, dont use that as an excuse to keep it on constantly. It can be macroed in on flashes, provokes, Cure IVs anything.

[Litoriceboi]

Max HP affects the rate you lose hate.

[Lockecole]

Max HP affects the rate you lose hate.

I still dont believe that, as my tanks outtank every PLD on our server, and go an enmity>vit>hp setup. The Real question should be, "What are you losing by taking HP instead of possibly more vital stats." Also how exactly does max HP effect hate? Wether or not you go into red/orange/yellow? Regardless both are viable back slot choices, and have their obvious advantages. Gear obviously doesnt matter in FFXI though, as many have stated, so why wear anything? :wink:

[Keyten]

Max HP affects the rate you lose hate.

I still dont believe that, as my tanks outtank every PLD on our server, and go an enmity>vit>hp setup. The Real question should be, "What are you losing by taking HP instead of possibly more vital stats." Also how exactly does max HP effect hate? Wether or not you go into red/orange/yellow? Regardless both are viable back slot choices, and have their obvious advantages. Gear obviously doesnt matter in FFXI though, as many have stated, so why wear anything? :wink:

Ever faught Fafnir or any other HNM? We've all seen those little Taru blms with 600 hp take hate. Faf more often than not turns around, bites them in the face for 300ish and he leaves them alone. The blm just took half his max HP in damage so his hate on Fafnir's hate list will be reduced by half. If a tank gets critted for 300, he has no problem keeping hate, and it rarely is off the tank after that because 300 HP is only a fraction of their max.

Now the half HP = half hate loss may not be the exact ration or equation but I just trying to give you an example of how max HP affects hate.

Of course +enmity is the way to go to make sure you hold hate, but if the slot doesnt have any +enmity and you want to keep hate, +HP would also help you out there.

[Lockecole]

Ever faught Fafnir or any other HNM? We've all seen those little Taru blms with 600 hp take hate. Faf more often than not turns around, bites them in the face for 300ish and he leaves them alone. The blm just took half his max HP in damage so his hate on Fafnir's hate list will be reduced by half. If a tank gets critted for 300, he has no problem keeping hate, and it rarely is off the tank after that because 300 HP is only a fraction of their max.

This is where I feel things are misinterpreted because of situations like this. A BLM is also not voking every 30 seconds, flashing every 30-45s and spamming JAs, and curing himself to hold hate. A BLM JUST crosses the threshold of a PLDs hate when he casts a large spell, getting hit HELPs with that but I dont think its as substantial as everyone thinks it is just because of the tarus low HP. Ive seen a BLM lose hate while just taking 1-2 shadows, not even taking a hit, and if a PLD just sits there and does nothing, 90% of the time that BLM will die before hate is lost. PLDs dont lose hate because they constantly perform actions to upkeep that hate spike. A PLD would lose hate by getting hit hard JUST like a BLM if he wasn't constantly performing actions to keep his hate up.

[Xavier]

Shadow mantle is absoluely worthless unless you're using pld/war. In turn, I think pld/war is absolutely worthless and pld/nin is by far better than it. If shadow mantle had a little +hp, then maybe it'd be good in all cases.

That really doesn't make any sense. Why would a few +hp make it good for pld/nin? Besides, +40hp is like 2% more hp. Shadow Mantle is better than that, and again, if you're worried about your HP total at all then the damaged saved from mantle would more than make up for the enmity lost from cape (which you can always macro in anyway.)

Because utsusemi does the exact same thing with a 100% proc rate opposed to 5-10%. Like shadowmantle, utsusemi doesn't absorb magic, which is why I'd want hp over jackshit. If you actually look at what I said, I said adding hp would redeem it for all purposes in my eyes. The mantle as it is for pld/war, but pld/nin should not be getting hit enough to ever see enough procs as is, and more hp for the magic attacks never hurt anybody.

I dont think the argument was wether or not Shadow Ring was better then Shadow Mantle but if any back piece rivaled Shadow Mantle for PLD/NIN or PLD/WAR.

Im confused with the statement "I dont need Shadow Mantle as a PLD/NIN because I never get hit, but I need 40 HP from a cape." Why? Its backwards thinking...you say you dont need the chance of a hit landing for 0 but you need HP. I just cant seem to recall a wyrm that has the ability to drop you quick enough that youd need 40-80HP due to ONLY magically based attacks.

Hi. Since you answered the question, albeit in a sarcastic tone, don't need to respond really. Clearly I was referencing the benefit of an extra 80hp for when shit happens opposed to a mantle with a 5% proc rate.

If anythings landing the final blow or killing you in a wyrm fight its having your shadows dropped from an AOE and then getting double attacked. Guess what's gonna save you in that instance? The 40 HP on Valor Cape?

Hiho. Statistically speaking, the Valor Cape would indeed save my life. With the cape, lets say you have 1600 hp, without, 1560. First, you have to assume you're out of shadows, and the other tanks in the party are incapable of sharing hate, so its all up to you. Now lets continue to assume that Tiamat proceeds to hit you. Tiamat scores a double attack crit, dealing you 1570 points of dmg. You can now either assume that the 5% proc rate on the mantle is going to kick in and keep you alive, or that the 100% proc rate from the extra hp will leave you with 30 hp left, a quick stun, shadows up, a cure iv from the other tanks and you're good to go again. You place too much faith in an astronomically low procrate. The entire argument is that if you're getting hit SO MUCH that the mantle is kicking in enough to be noticable, then there is something going on the mantle can't fix in the first place. The odds of the mantle kicking in at the very moment your shadows are down from that 1 attack in over an hour is so stupidedly low that only a fool would bet on it.

[Lockecole]

Hiho. Statistically speaking, the Valor Cape would indeed save my life. With the cape, lets say you have 1600 hp, without, 1560. First, you have to assume you're out of shadows, and the other tanks in the party are incapable of sharing hate, so its all up to you. Now lets continue to assume that Tiamat proceeds to hit you. Tiamat scores a double attack crit, dealing you 1570 points of dmg. You can now either assume that the 5% proc rate on the mantle is going to kick in and keep you alive, or that the 100% proc rate from the extra hp will leave you with 30 hp left, a quick stun, shadows up, a cure iv from the other tanks and you're good to go again. You place too much faith in an astronomically low procrate. The entire argument is that if you're getting hit SO MUCH that the mantle is kicking in enough to be noticable, then there is something going on the mantle can't fix in the first place. The odds of the mantle kicking in at the very moment your shadows are down from that 1 attack in over an hour is so stupidedly low that only a fool would bet on it.

Except this is where your thinking is flawed Xavier. You assume that Tiamat will exactly hit you for that amount. Relying on 30HP is JUST as flawed and stupid as relying on a 5% procrate, either way it involves relying on luck, and like you said...if thats happening then you have bigger issues in your alliance. Its just as RANDOM to be left with 30HP as is the random % to get hit for 0. Both happen only a VERY small % of the time, question is, do you wanna rely on hoping you live with 30hp, or gamble and hope you get hit for 0. Also the fact that Shadow Mantle procs on both hits on a double attack makes it that much better on Tiamat, negating the one and sole thing he does to drop tanks almost instantly. If you count the amount of times our tank has lived with 30hp compared to getting hit for 0....it would be a 1:25 ratio, and thats an approximation in favor of the HP.

[Xavier]

either way it involves relying on luck, and like you said...if thats happening then you have bigger issues in your alliance.

So if you can reach the conclusion that it all comes down to luck, how can you draw the conclusion that one is better than the other. My primary argument is that one is always active and has a visible effect, the other requires nothing but luck and rarely is even given the chance to attempt to kick in.

I don't like to opperate on luck. Relying on a extremely low proc mantle to save the tank is a bad strategy, which is why I feel its worthless. Either way, you haven't made a compelling argument to claim its superiority. I've used it, and it does jackshit if your LS isn't using pld/war or has its shit together to stun when your tanks shadows are down.

Its an item to help people get a lucky break. Let me rephrase my statement. Wearing shadowmantle is the equivlant of wearing absolutely nothing in your back slot the entire fight. People get this hard on for Dynamis Lord gear that I just don't understand.

[tiberion02]

dont know why we're talking about the crappy +hp when we can be talking about leetsauce +enmity....