Bush is a fucking fuck fuck

[Not Kuno]

This war is so similar to Vietnam it's disturbing.

[Rocl]

This war is so similar to Vietnam it's disturbing.

But will Robin Williams star in a movie about it?

[Vinen]

This war is so similar to Vietnam it's disturbing.

o rly?

[Raivyn]

This war is so similar to Vietnam it's disturbing.

I disagree, but I'm sure the author and his book explain why much more eloquently than I could.

[Serif]

This war is so similar to Vietnam it's disturbing.

I disagree, but I'm sure the author and his book explain why much more eloquently than I could.

Are you trying to sell this book?

[Demosthenes11]

I really, really, really hate the argument that we should stay out of the middle east's business because we put Saddam and Bin Laden in power. You are right, we did...so what's your point? You want to just sit back and watch them kill millions of people just because 'we put them in power'? We made a mistake, we are trying to fix that. If I put a nail in a tire, I'm not just going to watch the air slowly trickle out of it, but I will remove the nail and patch it up before too much is lost.

And to say Iraq is another Vietnam is just ignorance. We had, on some days, 2,000 people die in one day. In this war, its been 3 years, and we JUST hit the 2k people mark. Not only that,we have toppled one of the most vicious dictators, and we have installed a working democracy where the people have willingly voted. Vietnam was utter failure. You can not look at Iraq after this election and call it failure. That would make you ignorant.

[Xavier]

Just a note: Everyone in the WORLD, including even John Kerry, thought that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. Bush did not 'lie,' he made a judgement on the information that was in front of him.

The primary difference was the majority of the other countries in the world wanted to go through the proper channels through the UN and weapon inspectors, America was pushing for war. If says something about intelligence though if so many people can be so wrong.

Iraq was the #1 funder of Al'Quida, therefor they were a threat to nation security. In WWII, appeasement allowed Hitler to sneak in the first few attacks on the world while nobody was watching. He crossed the Rhine and allowed him to gain an advantage to other nations. We did not want to appease Saddam like we did Hitler.

I need a link on that information about Al'Quida and Iraq. As far as I know, Al'Quida had no involvement in Iraq before the war (despite claims during the pre-war build up), and I've seen clips from officals on the news admitting that now. People saw what Hilter was doing. They didn't want another war after "the war to end all wars", so they tried appeasement.

Saddam was toppled in the first Gulf War, and we decimated his army in a matter of days this time around. Iraq was no Germany. The comparisons between the Gulf War and World War II need to stop, its an entirely different world. Saddam was obviously a tyrant, but Iraq was hardly the most concerning country in the world. North Korea openly admits it has a nuclear weapons program, and has already made threats to have its sanctions removed, yet Iraq with its potential weapons was deemed a larger threat to invade. Whats that? Iraq had oil?

About Democracy being forced onto them...It really has not been. Before the war, there was NO WAY in hell that there would be a democracy there for at least 100 years. Now that we have taken the tyrannt out of power, we have installed a foundation for a democracy for the people or Iraq. I don't recall the exact numbers off the top of my head, but I think it's like 20% of america that votes during elections. 40% of Iraqi's voted in this last election (or some number close to that), so I really don't understand how you can say they do not want a democracy.

You kinda just made my point for me. It was forced on them because we invaded their country, removed their leader, told them to become democratic and left our military in the country to insure this. As far as voter turnout, Americans have become complacent w/ democracy, its so established its taken forgranted. Its natural that they'd have a higher turnout, they want control of their country back, and the Americans out.

I never said they don't want a democracy, I said it was forced on them. Someone might not be hungry for applepie either, but if you tempt them they are going to eat it. Let's hear it for America's 'Manifest Destiny'.

The phone tapping that has been uncovered in the NSA is actually not as bad as you think. They ONLY monitored domestic to foreign calls, and ONLY the ones of those that included flagged words such as "Al'Quida." The same thing was done during the Clinton Administration, but that's not in the news because it doesn't bash conservatives.

How deep does the rabbit hole go Alice? There was the the secret court established to give out warrants for wire-tappings that has not approved 4-5 (read 5 in the paper, heard 4 on tv) cases since 1979, out of thousands. Its a rubber-stamp. I heard today in an interview w/ a congressman that theres even a 2 day grace period to file for the warrant, meaning you can actually spy on a person, get the information you need, and then send it to court after the fact. Its a retarded system to by-step, and opens up the question of who they were spying on that they couldn't just get the warrants for.

Your statement is impossible for you to make. Unless you have access to the confidential information, you only have brief defenses by the White House on the matter, hardly the entire story.

As for "The same thing was done during the Clinton Administration, but that's not in the news because it doesn't bash conservatives", where were you when Clinton was impeached for lying about a blowjob. It wasn't in the news because far less important stuff dominated the airwaves. Don't try and make it an issue of democrats attacking republicans, because both sides of congress are raising hell over it.

President Lincoln was horribly unpopular for starting a war when we was president and now he is considered one of the best presidents ever. Not saying Bush will be considered one of the best, for he has made many mistakes, but I sure as hell don't feel he is a bad one.

Well when half the country just left the Union, I'd imagine it can hurt your popularity. Lets take it a step further and say George Washington helped forge America through war and fought off an oppressive government, and by god George Bush has forged a new Iraq by fighting off Saddam. Enough w/ stretching comparisons.

I really, really, really hate the argument that we should stay out of the middle east's business because we put Saddam and Bin Laden in power. You are right, we did...so what's your point? You want to just sit back and watch them kill millions of people just because 'we put them in power'? We made a mistake, we are trying to fix that. If I put a nail in a tire, I'm not just going to watch the air slowly trickle out of it, but I will remove the nail and patch it up before too much is lost.

You cannot police the world. No single country can hope to do it. America is already stretched too thin, thats not ignorance, its reality. I think most people would argue that America should stay within its own sphere of influence, aka what the founders of the country specfically wanted when they made the nation. If anything, it only incites anger when America militarily exerts itself in parts of the world that should be dealing w/ their own problems. If you take two kids on a playground who were fighting and send one to a timeout, its a temp. fix, the kids will go back to fighting when the timeout is over. They have to fix their own problems or its just an artifical change. Look what creating Israel has done for the region.

And to say Iraq is another Vietnam is just ignorance. We had, on some days, 2,000 people die in one day. In this war, its been 3 years, and we JUST hit the 2k people mark. Not only that,we have toppled one of the most vicious dictators, and we have installed a working democracy where the people have willingly voted. Vietnam was utter failure. You can not look at Iraq after this election and call it failure. That would make you ignorant.

The comparison is that of a war that cannot be won. Its fighting an idea, terrorism, communism, its all the same thing.

Your faith in a new democracy is interesting though. Maybe you haven't seen this: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq ... iraq_x.htm. The Sunni's are threatening violence if there isn't a recount, aka to disrupt the political process because they didn't win. Thats not a nation fully embracing democracy. Again, I don't know if you're in Iraq or not, but its farfetched for you to call people ignorant when you don't have first hand information. I don't have it either, so I'm not making claims of anything. But ignorance should be a term reserved for people in the know speaking to those who don't, not two people in the dark.

[Correction]

we fight a 'war' to save the people that do not like the dictatorship they are living under and then sell their wealth of natural resources to American customers...hmmm...

Fixed.

Otherwise we'd be at war over North Korea, Iran, Chechnya, China (gg sealing off a village over protests), Zimbabwe (hell most of Africa, for that matter), the list goes on.

We didn't go to war to protect Israel.

And stop interrupting Family Guy gadammit! That't what killed Futurama! Baseball and Presidents keep ruining all these great cartoons.

[Xavier]

we fight a 'war' to save the people that do not like the dictatorship they are living under and then sell their wealth of natural resources to American customers...hmmm...

Fixed.

Otherwise we'd be at war over North Korea, Iran, Chechnya, China (gg sealing off a village over protests), Zimbabwe (hell most of Africa, for that matter), the list goes on.

We didn't go to war to protect Israel.

And stop interrupting Family Guy gadammit! That't what killed Futurama! Baseball and Presidents keep ruining all these great cartoons.

End thread.

[Zigrah]

America was born on the rejection of another far off country trying to dictate their way of life and eventually led to civil war and their freedom. I think changes in government and that kind of evolution needs to be internal. I have to agree that forcing democracy on another country is a bit of a paradox.

The idea is nice on paper and all, and I won't deny from a moral standpoint you can make it look really altruistic. However, a war created on the foundation of a bunch of lies, most likely also has alterior motives to them than something as simple as bush wanting to give other countries democracy. Making such a conclusion that it's just that simple brings out the conspiracy theorist in me and makes me wonder if Osama Bin Laden knew exactly what he was doing, or if people knew that something like that happening would be the only reason to get such a war to happen. It's rather disgusting to think about but I can't help it with all the deception in the air.

What's done is done though, America can not just pull out of Iraq now though and anyone that expects that to happen is pretty foolish. This war has a couple years left to it at least and it's effects will be seen for many years to come. I just hope in the long term effects of it all, there is more good to come from it than bad... I think it's impossible to eliminate terrorism and this war only fuels the fires for those who want to view the U.S. as an enemy. I think only time will really tell, but I still think Bush is a bit of a tool when it comes to speeches and his ability to justify his decisions. However, he was voted in... twice and people should really support the decisions of their country. Unless you don't believe in democracy at all, then that's where the debate turns completely pointless argument that nobody can win.

Edit: Kinda gotta agree with Corrections post there.

[royze]

We made a mistake, we are trying to fix that. If I put a nail in a tire, I'm not just going to watch the air slowly trickle out of it, but I will remove the nail and patch it up before too much is lost.

And to say Iraq is another Vietnam is just ignorance. We had, on some days, 2,000 people die in one day. In this war, its been 3 years, and we JUST hit the 2k people mark. Not only that,we have toppled one of the most vicious dictators, and we have installed a working democracy where the people have willingly voted. Vietnam was utter failure. You can not look at Iraq after this election and call it failure. That would make you ignorant.

your cutting the tire in half to see where the nail has damaged...
other words letting all the air out..

funny how you speak about how many soldiers died, really funny...how about something that is more like a slap to the face?
how many innocent people died in that war? how many children, eldery people--people that dont hold a gun to you or strapped with a bomb, cause what happened to them took the life away from them...

killing their children, raping their daughters..i dont acknoledge the act, but id rather go back to my point..
the 2000 that have died in the past years in that war made 2000 families in the US suffer...does not compare to the nation that has 1000s of innocent people die because you had a "misguided" missile..or soldiers that went crazy after leaving their homes and seeing their own friends die in combat and take revenge by the infamous jail incedent(sp)?..

I feel sorry for those soldiers and their families, for their death...for fighting for a cause that was not a reality..

[Raivyn]

This war is so similar to Vietnam it's disturbing.

I disagree, but I'm sure the author and his book explain why much more eloquently than I could.

Are you trying to sell this book?

no, my gf is visiting so I don't have time to engage in this debate at length - so I just thought I'd plug a good place for info

[Not Kuno]

Hm let's see..


The only real difference I can think off the top of my head is that the public supported Iraq (at first), and not vietnam cause nobody really knew about it.


In both wars we sent our troops there with no real goal to accomplish and no exit plan. In both wars we had either misinformation or just downright wrong information about the people. I could go on if you'd like. :wink:

[joft]

i don't have the patience to make long posts but here's a few quick points:

we (america) are not "free"

not having an exit plan doesn't mean shit, it's a bad idea to base an argument on it. democrats are just wasting their time whining that we don't have an exit plan. and we did have a plan going in: get saddam, rebuild the country, ensure a friendly trade partner, we are executing that plan just fine and everything is going a lot better than honest and realistic people could have expected. the point is none of that justifies the war. also, basing the argument on "we went in because of WMD but there weren't any!!!!!" is a waste of time too. we didn't know that there weren't any (and we still don't, technically).

and in my opinion, going through the "proper channels" is a bullshit waste of an argument too. I challenge the claim of the UN as well as the US government to have the "right" to engage in war or police other sovereign nations. our claim, and the UN's claim, to that right is arbitrary, and if they want to claim it on an arbitrary basis then they can't blame Saddam for arbitrarily claiming his "right" to continue ruling his country and defend himself and even declare war on us to do so (as we did on him, perceiving him to be a threat)

every political philosophy is arbitrary, and has to be, because the universe itself is arbitrary and inconsistent and relative. to watch all these talking heads marching around claiming to have an objective claim to legitimacy and truth and ethics, including all of us in this thread who are arguing for one standpoint or another, is both funny and tragic, but such is humanity. we have had these philosophies for millennia, we even had a more "pure" democracy than any currently existing on earth over 2000 years ago, but none of it has ever stopped the endless procession of wars and genocides in the march of history and all of the millions of pointless casualties.

[Septimus]

I really, really, really hate the argument that we should stay out of the middle east's business because we put Saddam and Bin Laden in power. You are right, we did...so what's your point? You want to just sit back and watch them kill millions of people just because 'we put them in power'? We made a mistake, we are trying to fix that. If I put a nail in a tire, I'm not just going to watch the air slowly trickle out of it, but I will remove the nail and patch it up before too much is lost.

And to say Iraq is another Vietnam is just ignorance. We had, on some days, 2,000 people die in one day. In this war, its been 3 years, and we JUST hit the 2k people mark. Not only that,we have toppled one of the most vicious dictators, and we have installed a working democracy where the people have willingly voted. Vietnam was utter failure. You can not look at Iraq after this election and call it failure. That would make you ignorant.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. After World War II the maps of Eastern Europe and much of the Middle East were completely redrawn making new countries sometimes with factions that hated each other. (Read: Yugoslavia.) After that the Soviet Union and United States played chess with many of those nations (and others), placing regimes and governments in power at whim to suit the needs of the administrations. After the Soviet Union fell (and it was fated to fall because true Communism is the opposite of human nature) the US skipped merrily on their way ignoring the chaos that we helped to create.

So now we have a shiny new enemy (that we created), so we are going to so the same things (creating new governments) and we will be just as surprised when it does not work yet again. If you put a nail in a tire, sometimes the puncture is too large too patch on your own and you need to get out the spare. You cannot do that with countries, people in power of times forget that they are playing with real people's lives.

If Saddam needed to be taken down, it was Bush I's job to do it. (Especially since he has such a hand in putting him in power in Iraq in the first place.) He had the political impetus and world support to do so during Desert Storm, this was after he gassed the Kurds and Invaded Kuwait, but he chose not to. I think that speaks volumes.

[Not Kuno]

I don't like long posts either thats why I stick to the point.

I was comparing the current war to Vietnam. Do you know how hard it was to get out of Vietnam? It's been a problem for many presidents, because they didn't know what the fuck to do. You dont just leave a country after you send troops and supplies to idle around there.


How does this relate to Iraq?

No exit plan = the war isn't ending anytime soon. Simply put. If you argue this, you're an idiot because it's common sense. Now put that statement in relation to iraq, you see there is a problem. "Lets rebuild iraq" is not an exit plan. Let's say all the many different groups of people magically get along together and build a country together. We would still need to keep troups there to defend them until they have their shit together. And of course your assuming in the same idiotic way Bush did that the people of Iraq would welcome being joined together with people they arn't a part of to make a new country.


This war isn't going anywhere for a while.

[Ajani]

Family Guy!

[Demosthenes11]

I really, really, really hate the argument that we should stay out of the middle east's business because we put Saddam and Bin Laden in power. You are right, we did...so what's your point? You want to just sit back and watch them kill millions of people just because 'we put them in power'? We made a mistake, we are trying to fix that. If I put a nail in a tire, I'm not just going to watch the air slowly trickle out of it, but I will remove the nail and patch it up before too much is lost.

And to say Iraq is another Vietnam is just ignorance. We had, on some days, 2,000 people die in one day. In this war, its been 3 years, and we JUST hit the 2k people mark. Not only that,we have toppled one of the most vicious dictators, and we have installed a working democracy where the people have willingly voted. Vietnam was utter failure. You can not look at Iraq after this election and call it failure. That would make you ignorant.

One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. After World War II the maps of Eastern Europe and much of the Middle East were completely redrawn making new countries sometimes with factions that hated each other. (Read: Yugoslavia.) After that the Soviet Union and United States played chess with many of those nations (and others), placing regimes and governments in power at whim to suit the needs of the administrations. After the Soviet Union fell (and it was fated to fall because true Communism is the opposite of human nature) the US skipped merrily on their way ignoring the chaos that we helped to create.

So now we have a shiny new enemy (that we created), so we are going to so the same things (creating new governments) and we will be just as surprised when it does not work yet again. If you put a nail in a tire, sometimes the puncture is too large too patch on your own and you need to get out the spare. You cannot do that with countries, people in power of times forget that they are playing with real people's lives.

If Saddam needed to be taken down, it was Bush I's job to do it. (Especially since he has such a hand in putting him in power in Iraq in the first place.) He had the political impetus and world support to do so during Desert Storm, this was after he gassed the Kurds and Invaded Kuwait, but he chose not to. I think that speaks volumes.

So honestly, are we to just sit back and let Saddam continue to fund terrorism and bomb us? 1992, WTC bombings, ya, that was Saddam.

[Not Kuno]

That's a pretty bold statement. Have any sources?

[XxSlusherxx]

Just a note: Everyone in the WORLD, including even John Kerry, thought that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. Bush did not 'lie,' he made a judgement on the information that was in front of him.

The primary difference was the majority of the other countries in the world wanted to go through the proper channels through the UN and weapon inspectors, America was pushing for war. If says something about intelligence though if so many people can be so wrong.

Actually Hans Blix(UN head inspector) stright up said there were no WMDs, I don't know how this is constantly overlooked. I personally know former UN weapons inspector. And when this info was being spread he said rather plainly that their data was quite to the contrary. And before you start saying well they could not inspect certian areas, I've only ever heard this from the media, never from any Hans Blix quotes and never from my friend.