Why don't you...

[layoneil]

No one seems to mind mnk burns, or spamage parties

you're not looking in the right places, career DRKs, DRGs and PLDs hate them, they are just so much in the minority they are rarely heard. or if they do say something they get drowned out by everyone else. i've seen the complaints just the same.

For HNM...for about 2 months I was the only blm for the most part and we still killed everything fine (one time we were low on melee, but had like 5 smns standing around, so we just did it like vrtra and kited it around while BP's were down...not the most time effective strat, but it killed him in 45 minutes which is ok). The ONLY HNM in the game that I feel requires blms is Aspid, and there are ways around that anyways. Oh, and genbu, but he sucks and can be solo'ed in 3 hours by a rdm anyways, so meh.

Basically, if your ls can't do anything without blms...get another ls.

just because you can doesn't mean you want to. you can also jerk-off and not have sex but do you really want to not have sex?

if you admit BLMs make most strategies more efficient, something is fundamentally wrong.

[layoneil]

The point I was making is you can kill Fafhogg in a decent amount of time with a good amount of melee in alliance. You don't have to throw BLM at him to do well, just with a crapload of BLM you can kill in 9 to 14 mins.

if you're doing better (killing faster) by replacing each melee with a BLM something is wrong with the system. your point doesn't refute this.

very few people are adamantly arguing you absolutely can't do things without BLMs. most of us are arguing how fundamentally the game is broken in that things are usually smoother or more efficient if you replace a melee with a BLM but it doesn't work the other way around in almost all situations.

[Flash]

man, there are so many fuckin babies here.

black mages have a trade off for doing damage the way they do, and that is if they get too much hate they are basically fucked. They also have a finite amount of MP. If you are all pissed about how fuckin unfair it is go level black mage. I have never seen a HNM go down from 5 thunder 4's. I have seen regular mobs go down like that. Layoneil, you use the 5 thunder 4's on a mob as an example...That my friend is retarded. If it is an hnm that is a few dead blm's, and if it is a regular mob, well others do it more efficiently. I have seen war and mnk pt's slice through everything in their path and get insane exp, i would imagine even a thief pt could under the right circumstances get better exp. What most of you dont understand is that it is a trade of for survivability. You guys cant kill any kind of tough mob w/o a blm, what makes you think blm's can kill all the mobs w/o melee players. Both types of jobs need each other. How is making the mobs tougher (ie. by giving them more TP) or nerfing a main source of damage going to help anyone?

PS this game is not only about HNM'ing, there is more to this game than just swapping DD's for your latest Fafnir fight.

[Eternus]

No it is just more fun to kill a mob without a overwhelming amount of BLMs that you have already killed many other times. This is why people straight up tank Kirin. Yes when you involve more BLMs alot of the time the kills go faster, but you can do fine fucking around on Fafhogg. Don't understand why some people can't kill him in 1hr.. and it frenzies on them haha.

[Kaylia]

their TP Regen is slow, you can kill them with 3 wings in 30 minutes if you do it methodically with BLMs and SMNs. you can also get 3 wings in a row if you put a Ridill in there.

First thing, their TP regen isnt exactly "slow". It is for the first 20%, but it increase as its hp goes down. Write down time between 2 ws vs his hp when you have BLM and do same thing again when you have melee. You won't notice anything.


Is skill selection influenced by the TP he get? I don't think so. I've seen wings happy fafnir with BLM alliance as often as I did with melee. If there is a factor that influence that, I would rather vote for weather/day/moon than TP.

[Lordwafik]

Soooooo unless us BLM are getting MP back or some TP back on every nuke, poo on wanting to raise TP gained per nuke. That's just dumb. If they do change it to something as shitty as that, dont come complaining about how PLD sucks as tank because of all the TP moves ok? You're all just asking for it.

total equality is an unrealistic expectation. if BLMs get MP back for nuking, melees need to get TP from natural resting (no sleep pots), and they need TP cookies too. i don't care if BLMs get TP in proportion to their nukes.

Um no, everyone gets HP and MP back from resting, nobody is singled out, BLM get no returns at all TP/MP/HP wise for their damage, while all melee gets TP for their damage they do.

And what you're forgetting is while maybe faf will spam wing faster, but you can also kill it very fast with melees. With BLM's going all out like a war/nin on faf, chain nuking nonstop till they run out of MP, you'll find plenty of dead blms. No uts to back anything up, just blink(which isnt 100%) and stoneskin, which is torn off in every wing due to our mediocre enhancing magic.

[Orfeo]

4 pages here, 6 posts there.

Why don't you assclowns post on alla? Sure most people are retarded, but meh.

And you never know if they do or don't browse the alla boards. Worth a shot rather then emoing it up, and "sitting in our dark rooms whining" (basically what we are doing by posting on a site SE doesn't even know exists)

[layoneil]

First thing, their TP regen isnt exactly "slow". It is for the first 20%, but it increase as its hp goes down. Write down time between 2 ws vs his hp when you have BLM and do same thing again when you have melee. You won't notice anything.

they definitely spam WS faster earlier if you use melees than if you don't. or are you somehow trying to disprove the TP gain formula that has been tested?

get a mob to 300 TP faster they WS faster, the more WS they do the higher likelihood of one of those being Wing. if the mob does 10 WS with no melees vs a fight of 20 WS with melees, the odds of more Wings is definitely going to be the fight with 20 WS. TP moves being random is given, you can't take away the randomness you can only hope to minimize it.

Um no, everyone gets HP and MP back from resting, nobody is singled out, BLM get no returns at all TP/MP/HP wise for their damage, while all melee gets TP for their damage they do.

aren't you missing your own point? melees need TP to do damage, BLMs need MP to do damage. BLMs can rest for MP, melees can't rest for TP. melees need to give the mob TP to get their TP, BLMs don't need to give the mob MP to get their MP. there is a lot of imbalance, mob TP based on damage is balance, yet you don't want this unless you also get MP back.

also if melees can build TP while doing 50-100 damage per normal swing on HNMs like they do on XP mobs it wouldn't even be such a big deal because than the DoT would justify the TP given. but they poke these HNMs for 0-30 points of damage, which is another factor in being broken.

the TP issue is not a stab at BLMs, how hard is that to realize? if mob TP gain was damage based, a 10 dagger hit would be less than 40 axe hit.

it affects everybody but all the BLMs are piling on to be self-defensive because they have that magical 10 TP ceiling they want preserved.

And what you're forgetting is while maybe faf will spam wing faster, but you can also kill it very fast with melees. With BLM's going all out like a war/nin on faf, chain nuking nonstop till they run out of MP, you'll find plenty of dead blms. No uts to back anything up, just blink(which isnt 100%) and stoneskin, which is torn off in every wing due to our mediocre enhancing magic.

i'm not forgetting. BLMs can't go all out and melees can't go all out. WAR/NIN is very different from other melees because they are also tanks. DRKs, MNKs, THFs, SAMs don't go all out damage by subbing NIN, they go all out with WAR or THF sub. now we can go off topic yet again to how /NIN is broken. hey, how about BLM/NIN at Fafnir, let's go all out like that.

PS this game is not only about HNM'ing, there is more to this game than just swapping DD's for your latest Fafnir fight.

it's funny how you always miss the point, we're mostly only talking about HNMs. changing the TP thing would barely affect how PTs function. mobs die too fast for it to matter in XP PTs. i can careless if you do 4x WAR/NIN PT and all of them are Ridill + Kraken and spam Vorpal Blade.

something is fundamentally wrong with the game when melees get swapped for other melees but BLMs rarely if ever get swapped for other BLMs.

[Eternus]

lol I didn't write that first quote

[layoneil]

lol I didn't write that first quote

fixed

[Kaylia]

they definitely spam WS faster earlier if you use melees than if you don't. or are you somehow trying to disprove the TP gain formula that has been tested?

It might be noticeable early like I said, but after 70%, I doubt you will see a big difference, if any. In any case, it won't be twice as often like you said.

get a mob to 300 TP faster they WS faster, the more WS they do the higher likelihood of one of those being Wing. if the mob does 10 WS with no melees vs a fight of 20 WS with melees, the odds of more Wings is definitely going to be the fight with 20 WS. TP moves being random is given, you can't take away the randomness you can only hope to minimize it.

I know what you're trying to say, but the odd one WS is a Hurricane Wing isnt higher. Odd stay the same.

[Flash]

actually layoneil it was a discussion regarding all mobs to begin with, not just HNM. It just degenerated into an omfgwtfbbq black mages are too strong on HNM's lets all hug the melee's thread...

[Elcura]

actually layoneil it was a discussion regarding all mobs to begin with, not just HNM. It just degenerated into an omfgwtfbbq don't nerf teh nukes lets all hug the blms thread...

fixed

about MNK/WAR/NIN PTs - people complain about those, people who don't always get to join them (THF/DRG/DRK/PLD/SAM) there are a few people that play those jobs that can still pull off the damage a MNK/WAR/NIN that don't complain about it, it's just that people who do complain are told they're stupid and should shut up.

only reason people complained about manaburn is cause they saw the high chain count and though "HOLY SHIT THATS A LOT OF EXP" when really it was about the same as MNK/WAR PT, only difference it didn't require the effort as a good MNK/WAR PT. To make 10-12k an hour in a MNK PT EVERYONE puts in 100%, if a mage slacks exp per hour goes down, if the mnks aren't well equipped exp per hour goes down. I can't speak for WAR PTs so much cause I haven't been in much, but I imagine it's pretty much the same.

I have never seen a HNM go down from 5 thunder 4's. I have seen regular mobs go down like that. Layoneil, you use the 5 thunder 4's on a mob as an example...That my friend is retarded. If it is an hnm that is a few dead blm's, and if it is a regular mob, well others do it more efficiently.

It was me who used that example, incase you didn't get it (again) it was to show how much BLMs can do to a mob (being anything) while the showing the retarded amount of TP given compared to melee. It was just an example, I sure as hell have never seen a HNM die to 5 Thunder IV's but I've sure as hell never seen 5 WARs do 5 attack rounds on not 1 of them DA's.

[DrObvious]

i dont understand what the problem is. Black mage is supposed to do sick amounts of damage like that. There are drawbacks to it, such as the hate spikes you people are always talking about, how many hits before the mage gets completley eaten?

Ranger was too, and guess what, they deemed it too powerful on hnms and nerfed them.

man, there are so many fuckin babies here.

black mages have a trade off for doing damage the way they do, and that is if they get too much hate they are basically fucked.

Subbing nin for survivability was something rangers did, why can't you do it too? Ranger pre-patch subbing war put out ridiculous numbers compared to /nin. It's your choice to not sub nin. There are obviously tradeoffs, and one of them for not subbing /nin is that you have to watch your hate more closely and not go all out whenever you want to.

actually layoneil it was a discussion regarding all mobs to begin with, not just HNM. It just degenerated into an omfgwtfbbq black mages are too strong on HNM's lets all hug the melee's thread...

Who the hell is complaining about exp parties? Regular mobs can stay unchanged for all I care. Melees don't need blms in exp parties, nor do blms need melees, witness mana burn or ws spam parties. If anything, melees have the advantage in exp/hr whether or not the mob is using more tp moves. It is simply a non-issue there. Exp is balanced enough, it is on hnms where the problem arises, because of the way damage works where melees do less and less damage, but are still giving the same tp per hit.

To all the whiners saying that this will break blm, SE can add omg subtle blow items designed for mages! Then you can balance subtle blow on blm like whms balance -enmity. In fact, they need to add some good items with subtle blow for melees, because they aren't many. Need subtle blow? Just grab a bard and sing double minuet. There, you just increased the damage/tp ratio of your melees more than all the subtle blow items SE will ever give them.

P.S. I'm not a melee so your strawman argument of me being a "disgruntled melee" doesn't apply to me.

[Zigrah]

Soooooo unless us BLM are getting MP back or some TP back on every nuke, poo on wanting to raise TP gained per nuke. That's just dumb. If they do change it to something as shitty as that, dont come complaining about how PLD sucks as tank because of all the TP moves ok? You're all just asking for it.

Black Mages MP is like full TP except it's like a sam two hour they can go more than once before it's gone and then on top of it rest to get it back and go again. My melee hits are insignificant in comparison and yes I get TP but that's used so I can finally do some damage comparable to one Tier IV spell from a blm. In order to mirror that potential you have of resting for MP we have to slowly sleep ourselves for TP or sub sam and wait 3 minutes to get 60 tp, not even enough to WS and your complaining about getting the short stick? TP fix would only make it so BLM's would be equally at fault for mobs weapon skilling and all your damage potential is still there. It wouldn't break you it would just make it so your not the be all end all answer to explointing a system that makes you able to nuke and have the mob less likely to do a TP move making all but one job fall way behind you in desirablility. BLM would still be more desirable for the speed in which they can deal damage, I'm not saying make the TP gain impossible but there certainly needs a balance.

These mobs are supposed to be a challenge but instead we make them easy by using these methods... I don't really see a problem with this solution other than the fact people just can't zerg anymore. The other direction makes the game even easier. Mobs will rarely TP move and you can just swap black mages in for spells. I dunno how fun it will make the game and on non-HNM systems I could foresee some problems.

Anyways whatever, I know blm's will defend their right to nuke with little recourse and if it ever got fixed strategies on HNM might need to be changed and lots of people will be angry. It would be nice to have balance but I won't argue with people over it when most people seem content with the direction of the game when it comes to play style.

[Xavier]

man, there are so many fuckin babies here.

black mages have a trade off for doing damage the way they do, and that is if they get too much hate they are basically fucked.

Oh really, glad you're here to tell us that professor. How is that different than any job doing enough dmg to get hate, everyone has that tradeoff.

The TP system is broken, only a blackmage has a legitimate reason to argue that it works because ANY change would involve their role becoming less significant.

[BRP]

As a BLM I want to see melees out damage me. I mean DoT and spike damage(WS+SC). I can stun and I can sleep; these two being the most useful non damaing offensive attacks you can do, along with gravity... oh wait I can just sub /RDM. I shouldn't be able to be the highest damage dealer. Simce I'm bored I'm going to give you my ideas, even though they would never happen.

Nerf Hiroshima Style Nuking: After magical damage, that is not an en-spell or 'spike' spell, the mob is temporay immuned to magic damage(not magic spells) for about 3 seconds. Spells that are magic bursted ignore and do not cause this immunity. Astral Flow ignores and does not cause this immunity. Lastly, some monsters will not have this immunity. Dynamis Lord, Yin, Yang, Memory recepticals(or whatever!), and Snoll Tzar; these are the ones I had in mind to be left alone. Also all summons aside from dolls do not have this trait. [This completely ends anything Manaburn. Divine Mighty, CoP's Ouryu, exp, ect ect. This takes BLM and lowers them to the point they are awesome, not O-M-G ITS JESUSTARU]

TP Change: Have monsters TP gain be totally different than players. Instead of it being based on damage given or taken(uh not completely), have it be TP regen that starts ticking once it has hate on something. The TP regen wouldn't make a big different on exp mobs and ect. But no matter the melee set up or tank, the mob will use its WSes the same. For each melee attack given to the mob, it gains about 4-5 TP. SB lowers this. Magical damage gives 5-7(more for -aga).

Hitting monsters: I say, add a cap to defense and evasion to a monster. IMO, at some point, unless the whole gimmick of the NM says otherwise, have monsters not be able to dodge or take less damage than levels before it. Exp mobs would remain the same. But level 88-90 mobs will become weaker to melee attacks. Have melee attacks do half-dmg, like spells do, on wyrms, or whatever. But you get the point. Make them TPable, and even DoTable(without getting a shitload of misses and 0s).

Buff WSes and SCs: Two handed weapons should become the best weapon against HNMs. They should gain more TP the higher level the mob. 2h weapons should do WS damage, on most HNMs, for as much as the magic burst thunder IV would do and SC damage should follow. It would be better if G.Axe, Polearm, GS, and Scythe did more damage than G.Katana(simply because SAMs can spam the hell out of G.Katana WSes). WSes should have a very, very low chance at missing, no matter how much the evasion of the mob is. SCs should always do more than spells.

Change Blood Weapon to give DRKs a HUGE amount of -enimity and a tiny attack bonus. The position of the Ranger should be twice more effective. Give Wyverns a -50% taken from breath and fire/thunder damage.

I am very tired and probably typed a lot of things wrong, but this is what I pretty much think.

[Kaylia]

BLM are seriously overrated. It's true they are good against wyrm and against sea NM...but that's all.

After 60, WS burn party are almost always better. At 75, BLM in xp party is one of the worst DD, behind any melee. For almost every mission or lesser NM, I would rather have melee than blm.


Blm is pretty good for a few things, but going as far as saying it's better than everything else is stupid. I've both WAR and BLM leveled, but I find myself using War way more than Blm



Exp party: Blm is far from being the best here, despite what everyone believed 2 years ago >_>

Leveling npc: People can disagree, but I find easier to level with him on melee job. Probably not true at 65+ but meh

Low level farming/nm camp: Melee usually more efficient

High level farming: Blm is a good soloer, but so is ninja, thief and rdm. But anyway, what kind of thing Blm could solo that would be worthwhile?

Mission: Not much to say about ZM and normal mission. I soloed as many on Warrior then I did on BLM (6+), but it doesn't happen often enough to worth mentioning.

CoP Mission: Beside Ouryu/Pot BC/mithra, Blm far from being the most useful.

Lesser HNM: Everybody do good, melee outdamage blm tho but blm's debuff can be useful.

God+Kirin: Pimped melee win on almost everything, unless you rotate your BLM to increase your "dmg per alliance slot"

Wyrm: Mass BLM win...but meh. How often do you fight wyrm? Maybe often for certain people, but never enough to say they are breaking the game. That said, war/nin (and I assume other pimped melee) still win on fafnir in term of DoT. Blm's advantage is they can take care of themselves with stoneskin.

Sea NM: Blm win again I guess. Maybe not for farming but to kill NM at least.

Limbus: Depend what zone, but it's usually nice to have equilibrate alliance

Dynamis: About the same again. Blm has an advantage for Xarc over other DD

BC: Depend what BC. Sleepga II is hot in many of them, but rdm and brd can do the same

Not sure if I forgot anything, but like I said earlier, the only place I would really want a BLM over another DD is for Wyrm and to fight Sea NM. When you consider every DD can usually serve another purpose (tank, hate control, skillchain, debuff, range attack), BLM don't seem to be much better than anything else.

[BRP]

CoP Mission: Beside Ouryu/Pot BC/mithra, Blm far from being the most useful.

I'd have to disagree with this. BLM pretty much own CoP once they get a AM. 5 BLMs and 1 PLD is probably the best Snoll Tzar set up. ES Flare can do 15-20%. I'd say SMN is the only job better than BLM on these missions, with the exception of Snoll, which BLM is probably better off(with Paladin anyway).

[Flash]

Xavier go fuck yourself.

You are a shitbag. You calling me or anyone else professor is rich since you know everything already

Don't you have some WoW area you need to go rape?

Back on topic, basically all i see for "fixes" that people are talking about kinda screw everyone over in the long run. All jobs have their strengths and weaknesses, granted some more than others. I just find it unfortunate that everyone feels that in order to make the game better they need to screw over another job. How does nerfing blm exactly help people? How does giving a mob more TP help anyone? Next we will want to nerf monk chi blast. Eventually we will come full circle and dragoons will own again.

One more thing all of you guys forget to mention is how insanley blm's get resisted on some mobs unless there is an SC. Take kirin for example, you can have capped merits and you still get resisted out the ass without an SC. If you get your SC there is a good chance you will get good damage. Like i said one type of job cant live without the other. I am not entirley sure anymore what you guys are arguing about, the fact that blm's have the ability to do damage, or the fact as melee players you get swapped out of the alliance? If it is for the simple fact you get swapped out that is just silly. Blackmage is not broken, maybe the way mobs get TP is broken, "breaking" yet another job is not going to fix it, it is just going to give you more to complain about.

To DrObvious, there are obvious reasons why a blackmage does not sub ninja for shadows. Losing a handfull of usefull spells would most likley be #1 on that list, but since you are DrObvious you probably knew this already.

One more thing, i have leveled thief to 75 as well as other mage jobs, and i have hnm'd and done gods on all of them. I do realize that doing shitty damage is frustrating while at the same time giving the mob TP really sucks ass. Would i rather play my black mage at hnm, fuck no. The biggest trade off at least for me is that melee jobs are more fun, while waiting to nuke/stun/heal is boring as hell. If you have not maybe you should try to level blackmage to 75, it is not all you are making it out to be.