Why don't you...

[Kaylia]

CoP Mission: Beside Ouryu/Pot BC/mithra, Blm far from being the most useful.

I'd have to disagree with this. BLM pretty much own CoP once they get a AM. 5 BLMs and 1 PLD is probably the best Snoll Tzar set up. ES Flare can do 15-20%. I'd say SMN is the only job better than BLM on these missions, with the exception of Snoll, which BLM is probably better off(with Paladin anyway).

I've done every mission beside airship BC 10-20 times, and believe me, BLM is far from being the most useful, even if it's never the worst. It's a job you can fit in every party, but will rarely be the best choice. The only reason I was using it is that you can do relatively good without gear.


Promyvion x3: Blm totally blow, no good nuke, no good debuff.

Phomunia aqueduct: No job are really bad for that place. Blm tend to get destroyed by AoE against minotaure, but you can avoid it if you don't suck.

RivA: Blm is a nice back up healer when you hold 2 and kill one, but another rdm, whm or smn is much better. melee/nin ftw here

Diabolos: Blm get resisted, cant stun. They can in theory avoid nightmare, but they wont unless they are used to that BC. Blm is far from being needed.

RivB: Not much to say here beside Blm > all

Sacrarium: Anything work here

Mithra: Blm work nice if you use zombie method, and you can manaburn this one. Samurai, ranger, war, mnk work also pretty well. This BC is easy in overall


Tzar: Before patch, Sam/rng was winning easily (x2 Blm dmg, x10 if it was using berserk. They are probably still doing well with r.acc food. Samurai, mnk, warrior, rdm can all do better than Blm. Never had trouble with that BC anyway

Goblin: Melee all the way

Airship: 3melee/3mages. Only whm is needed, and nin tank recommanded. Just need to keep a balanced party

Tenzen: War,mnk, blm are the best here. rng is probably fine, I forgot

Huzhoi: Can be duoed by /nin and whm or rdm. Blm is nice to sleep and zone, but anyone can do that

Pot Bc: Blm and mnk are the best

Promathia: lv80Mnk/whm > blm


So yeah...dunno where you see BLM there beside ouryu, and pot BC but melee are used more often.


About SMN, they arent bad I guess but the few time I had the "chance" to see them in action, it was to see their 2hour get outranged. However, beside Mithra BC (goblin and ouryu too I guess), there is probably better alternative.

[sekaran]

RDM own Tenzen.. Chainspell+Thunder3 ftw!

[NynJa]

Wyrm: Mass BLM win...but meh. How often do you fight wyrm? Maybe often for certain people, but never enough to say they are breaking the game. That said, war/nin (and I assume other pimped melee) still win on fafnir in term of DoT. Blm's advantage is they can take care of themselves with stoneskin.

If that's including CoP wyrms....the only thing BLM's do there is keep the add party small.
The only blm that gets into main alliance, at tiamat atleast, is me, to stun firaga's.

[Kaylia]

If that's including CoP wyrms....the only thing BLM's do there is keep the add party small.
The only blm that gets into main alliance, at tiamat atleast, is me, to stun firaga's.

Didn't fight CoP wyrm often enough to comment But people keep saying how fast they killed them using their uber BLMx23948230498 strats, so I just assumed it's working well. In any case, I was saying BLM are overated, and your post just seem to confirm it again.


What strategy are you using to prevent mass blm anyway? Drkx10+ krakken club? Lot of smn? Or just cycling melee

[DrObvious]

Back on topic, basically all i see for "fixes" that people are talking about kinda screw everyone over in the long run. All jobs have their strengths and weaknesses, granted some more than others. I just find it unfortunate that everyone feels that in order to make the game better they need to screw over another job. How does nerfing blm exactly help people? How does giving a mob more TP help anyone? Next we will want to nerf monk chi blast. Eventually we will come full circle and dragoons will own again.

Agree or disagree, it is fair that blms can free nuke and give 10tp each time for multi-hundred damage barrages? It seems that you do agree since you say "granted some more than others." Making blm per nuke tp go up for at least the IV line of spells doesn't screw them over in the slightest.

To DrObvious, there are obvious reasons why a blackmage does not sub ninja for shadows. Losing a handfull of usefull spells would most likley be #1 on that list, but since you are DrObvious you probably knew this already.

Then stop complaining about survivability as a negative aspect of your job. You act like there's no way to increase it- don't tell me you want all the party support benefits of /whm AND utsusemi at the same time, as if that's reasonable?

Lots of blms in my ls go /rdm, instead of /whm. /rdm is obviously a more selfish sub but they do it anyway. Why not take it to the extreme and just sub nin? Most of the blms that sub rdm don't bother using cure anyway.

If you have not maybe you should try to level blackmage to 75, it is not all you are making it out to be.

I don't need to do that. I've parsed blms on various hnms. I've leveled with them in various party setups. I have tons of blm friends inside and outside of my ls. I've seen firsthand their limitations, and I've also seen the limitations of melees. I admit that in many situations blms are overrated.

Exp party: Blm is far from being the best here, despite what everyone believed 2 years ago >_>

However, most parties are designed to be blm friendly. They set up weak skillchains which often use weak weaponskills in order for a blm to mb. They also tend to want to fight higher exp per kill mobs, which good blms do better on than melees. It doesn't really help matters much when the most skillchain friendly weaponskills are the ones you would never do in a melee friendly party.

[aurik]

To DrObvious, there are obvious reasons why a blackmage does not sub ninja for shadows. Losing a handfull of usefull spells would most likley be #1 on that list, but since you are DrObvious you probably knew this already.

Then stop complaining about survivability as a negative aspect of your job. You act like there's no way to increase it- don't tell me you want all the party support benefits of /whm AND utsusemi at the same time, as if that's reasonable?

Lots of blms in my ls go /rdm, instead of /whm. /rdm is obviously a more selfish sub but they do it anyway. Why not take it to the extreme and just sub nin? Most of the blms that sub rdm don't bother using cure anyway.

I see this more and more often, blm/nin, and I hate it. It gives them an excuse to do nothing but overnuke.

Blm/rdm is almost as bad; the lack of curagas and -nas IS relevant. Especially in mid-level xp parties, having the blm able to toss out a sealed cure or curaga will cut downtime a lot.

[Not Kuno]

For leveling blm, subbing anything other then whm is pretty retarded until 70+ at which you can use rdm instead. Going /nin or /smn is just completely useless.

[edgarfigaro]

/nin does little for surviablity...stoneskin+blink>utsuemi

[nivlakian]

I decided to post in your thread Orfeo. You still haven't editted your post there.

just realized today that EVERY shitty change to the game was suggested on alla.

From my point of view, you perhaps are only adding to the list of bad suggestions. If you really want it to be considered, you need to take into account the results such changes would have to the entire game and perhaps alter your OP accordingly and/or parcipate in the discussion of your thread.

[BRP]

Kaylia the reasons you listed for other jobs being better for CoP are pretty... uh crappy. It sounds like you'd like to pick another job out of taste, not stats and that you havn't seen good examples with BLM(for one, a BLM with a PLD tank, because BLM are 'nerfed' with a NIN). I don't want to debate this because its out of topic, but I suggest listing better reasons next time.

And to overall people in the thread. If you really think BLM(and SMN for that matter) are not overpowered, you are as bad as SE. A BLM never MBs and gets resisted to 400-500(depending on how pimp he is with MAB) on Thunder IV will ALWAYS out damage deal than anyway melee DD if the battle lasts longer than 5 minutes. Throw in Elemental Seal to seal the deal(no pun intended). Melee DDs, when it comes to high evasion and high defense mobs, are like one handed, one legged men who need to be picked up and held as they throw a boulder on a monster. BLMs on the other hand are behind medival style boulder launchers(I know there is a word to replace this...). Of course, SAMs have two feet at least.

[Xavier]

man, there are so many fuckin babies here.

black mages have a trade off for doing damage the way they do, and that is if they get too much hate they are basically fucked.

Oh really, glad you're here to tell us that professor. How is that different than any job doing enough dmg to get hate, everyone has that tradeoff.

Xavier go fuck yourself.

You are a shitbag. You calling me or anyone else professor is rich since you know everything already

Don't you have some WoW area you need to go rape?

How about you answer the fucking question chief.

How is a blm over nuking and getting hate not the exact same tradeoff of any melee doing a 1500 dmg ws and getting hate and dying?

Dunno why you'd get so offensive, I just pointed out that it wasn't a blm specific problem and was a really weak argument. If someone pointing out that an argument was irrational constitues them being a "shitbag", then your world must be a really smelly place.

I've been called a lot of things, but never a 'shitbag'. I might even take offense if it didn't keep bringing up images of Billy Madison.

[NynJa]

If that's including CoP wyrms....the only thing BLM's do there is keep the add party small.
The only blm that gets into main alliance, at tiamat atleast, is me, to stun firaga's.

Didn't fight CoP wyrm often enough to comment But people keep saying how fast they killed them using their uber BLMx23948230498 strats, so I just assumed it's working well. In any case, I was saying BLM are overated, and your post just seem to confirm it again.


What strategy are you using to prevent mass blm anyway? Drkx10+ krakken club? Lot of smn? Or just cycling melee

none of our drk's have kraken's or ridills...

just smn's and sam's mainly for dmg. BLM's take care of adds.

[Faranim]

I actually think that increasing TP given from higher tier nukes would help (maybe not as extreme as 40TP per nuke, maybe 15-20)... because people would realize that TP given to HNM doesn't really affect TP usage very much. It would make people more open to try melee-oriented strategies and perhaps find something that works better than existing strategies. If you've ever tried to melee the CoP Wyrms, they're actually pretty soft and you can deal reasonable DoT on them.

We've been using melee at Fafhogg for a while now. BLM can still outdamage them since the fight is so short, but melee definately doesn't suck as bad as people make it out to be. Part of the problem is the Blind effect of Hurricane Wing, while there is no equivalent status effect for BLMs which makes their resist rate skyrocket.

We have yet to try a melee DoT type strategy on CoP Wyrms, but I think the potential is there, at least for the first 60-70% of the mobs HP. Once the HP gets too low TP spammage is just too fast to afford healing melees, and it's basically required to go to a skillchain + Magic Burst onry strategy to kill it off.

[macbain24]

Diabolos: Blm get resisted, cant stun. They can in theory avoid nightmare, but they wont unless they are used to that BC. Blm is far from being needed.

I've done diabolos a couple times resists are never a problem, and dmg was good to.

[macbain24]

BLMs on the other hand are behind medival style boulder launchers(I know there is a word to replace this...).

lol a catapult >.>

[BRP]

BLMs on the other hand are behind medival style boulder launchers(I know there is a word to replace this...).

lol a catapult >.>

CATAPULT! It was catapult.

[Kaylia]

Exp party: Blm is far from being the best here, despite what everyone believed 2 years ago >_>

However, most parties are designed to be blm friendly. They set up weak skillchains which often use weak weaponskills in order for a blm to mb. They also tend to want to fight higher exp per kill mobs, which good blms do better on than melees. It doesn't really help matters much when the most skillchain friendly weaponskills are the ones you would never do in a melee friendly party.

Hence why you have to invite a 4th melee instead of blm. >_> Of course, you pick w/e is seeking and live with that setup, but when you have the choice, blm is far from being the best. I'm not saying they arent doing any good in xp party, but situation is the same for wyrm, or sea NM. Blm might be the best, but other job still do pretty good.

What I'm saying is BLM are the best at time, but every job have a place where they shine more.

Kaylia the reasons you listed for other jobs being better for CoP are pretty... uh crappy. It sounds like you'd like to pick another job out of taste, not stats and that you havn't seen good examples with BLM(for one, a BLM with a PLD tank, because BLM are 'nerfed' with a NIN). I don't want to debate this because its out of topic, but I suggest listing better reasons next time.

No, reason I'm not picking BLM is because they are never included in the core of the party, and there is always a job who can fill their role better (with the exception of pot BC and ouryu).

You should be the one stating the reason why you think BLM are better than other melee, because they are definitively not. It doesn't mean they don't have a place in CoP BC, it just means BLM could not exist and BC would be as easy.

I've done diabolos a couple times resists are never a problem, and dmg was good to.

Elemental merit maybe? Blm isn't a bad choice, but if you want to kill fast, it's far from being the best. Before saying dmg are good, try parsing it versus samurai, mnk, warrior or ranger. It's far from "good".

[BRP]

Outside the the promys, I almost never get resisted. Diabolos, for example, doesn't have a big magical resistance... maybe to dark only.

1. Melees will miss more than BLMs get resisted. Melees can miss WSes and 2hrs. Like I said above, without any Elemental Merits, I almost never get resisted.

2. BLMs is never in range of AoE.

3. Spike damage is what CoP is all about. BLM is the KING of spike damage.

4. x5 BLM and x1 PLD is a lot safer than any other set up on Snoll Tzar. 5 ES Flares is an unmissable, unresistable 5000-8000 damage(almost instant win) within the fire 10 seconds of engagement. Any chance of surivial for the monster can be won eaisly with a Firaga II. SAM/RNGs or RNG/WARs can steal hate from PLD eaiser than a BLM. WSes and 2hrs can miss, and Snoll does have good enough evasion for this to happen to even pimped out players(I've seen it happen twice). It takes RDMs longer to hit a BLM 1200-1300 damage, because of resists and ect, however they will outdmg them over time(but the difference will be little if the BLM can hit off Firaga II[about 600 dmg unresisted] and Fire II[about 300-340 damage unresisted]).

5. BLMs don't need to build up TP on longer fights. For example, non manaburn Ouryu.

6. On 50(and 60 cap) BLM gain THREE extremely useful spells: Stun, Sleepga(I and II), and AMs.

7. BLMs can back up heal at times. This with stun(like noted above), can prevent wipes if something goes terribly wrong.

I don't believe you need BLM leveled to CoP. I did Ouryu first with a normal party set up(no SMN and I was only BLM) and then I did it manaburned. I enjoyed a lot more with the manaburn. However, it is absolutely pointless and idiotic to say melee DDs are better than BLMs(at least, to the point that it is pointless to invite BLMs). Its just not true. A well played melee can out do a poorly played BLM, but a well played melee can't out do a well played BLM in almost all of CoP(and in most cases). This game has an imbalance I'd like to see change, but until then, don't lie to yourself.

[Xavier]

Melee DDs, when it comes to high evasion and high defense mobs, are like one handed, one legged men who need to be picked up and held as they throw a boulder on a monster. BLMs on the other hand are behind medival style boulder launchers(I know there is a word to replace this...). Of course, SAMs have two feet at least.

I agree, but I don't even think SAM comes close enough.

SAM is the 'least' gimped melee at major HNMs since they retain the ability to do strong weaponskills without giving the mob tp/ignoring its def and evasion. To start to compare SAMs to BLMs would require meditate to be reduced to a 20 second timer w/ a 30 second cooldown every 5 uses to generate the same time of dmg a blm is capable of doing.

[Nagamaki]

There is exaggeration on both sides on how much melee sucks on HNMs. The Tp to damage ratio difference can't be overstated, but in raw damage its not quite as one sided as people like to say. A MNK/WAR with good gear using sushi and WITHOUT BRD can do enough damage on Fafnir or Nidhogg to get its attention within a few minutes and hold it off the tanks until Terrorized, without needing to Provoke at any point in time. (you don't actually want to tank so when you draw hate you turn away, unless you're trying to countertank it). Give the MNK/WAR a BRD and damage increases very dramatically.

The WS damage from Asuran Fists will be pretty sad looking, true. Overall damage however, will not. Of course hate by itself isn't enough to go by to make comparisons since BLMs usually have more enmity reduction on while my MNK/WAR setup has -3 only, but its still a fairly decent reference frame.