Why don't you...

[Kaylia]

1. Melees will miss more than BLMs get resisted. Melees can miss WSes and 2hrs. Like I said above, without any Elemental Merits, I almost never get resisted.

Wtf is that? Comparing melee accuracy to mage resist to figure which one is the best is the most stupid thing you could do. Take a parser, and look at the result, melee outdamage black mage in those BC, resist or no resist. The end. Blm has some use since they can heal, but if they do, they usually have to sacrifice even more damage to not pull hate.

2. BLMs is never in range of AoE.

Yes, and that's why melee sub nin. Not to mention accident happen, blm will get hit as well since you can't avoid everything.
Explain me how BLM can outdamage other melee without pulling hate, when you consider the fact other melee always pull hate.

I'm not denying being out of AoE is an advantage, that's why I keep a balance of 3 melee 3 mage for those BC. However, it's usually the healer/debuff/buff job I would favor over mage DD.

3. Spike damage is what CoP is all about. BLM is the KING of spike damage.

BLM =/= spike damage before 50.

You seem to forget 2 hour ability make blm fall behind in term of spike damage.

Not every fight consist of killing mob in 1 single big spell. How is BLM spike damage good against Omega/Ultima? In other BC?

4. x5 BLM and x1 PLD is a lot safer than any other set up on Snoll Tzar. 5 ES Flares is an unmissable, unresistable 5000-8000 damage(almost instant win) within the fire 10 seconds of engagement. Any chance of surivial for the monster can be won eaisly with a Firaga II. SAM/RNGs or RNG/WARs can steal hate from PLD eaiser than a BLM. WSes and 2hrs can miss, and Snoll does have good enough evasion for this to happen to even pimped out players(I've seen it happen twice). It takes RDMs longer to hit a BLM 1200-1300 damage, because of resists and ect, however they will outdmg them over time(but the difference will be little if the BLM can hit off Firaga II[about 600 dmg unresisted] and Fire II[about 300-340 damage unresisted]).

I'm 10/11 in that BC, and only time I lost is because we tried with pld+ninja+thf and were hoping to be lucky with berserk. 5 BLM work, but any damn setup with 5 DD work. Bring 5 sam/rng and you own the BC, bring 6 rdm and you own the BC, bring 5 mnk/nin + 1 healer and you own the BC.
Blm is one of the good job for that BC, but not the only one. A party full of DD will obviously has it easier than a party with thief or ninja.

5. BLMs don't need to build up TP on longer fights. For example, non manaburn Ouryu.

I don't remember saying the opposite, BLM are the best here. You just need 2 blm and you got an instant win.

6. On 50(and 60 cap) BLM gain THREE extremely useful spells: Stun, Sleepga(I and II), and AMs.

Sleepga II isnt that useful considering it pratically never work beside Pot BC (and its hot for that one).

Stun and AM are nice, but every job has useful trait/ja/ws/spell.

7. BLMs can back up heal at times. This with stun(like noted above), can prevent wipes if something goes terribly wrong.

A smn can heal, a whm can heal, a rdm can heal, a brd can heal....many things can heal. You won't be able to DD and heal at the same time or there will be hate issue. It's good to keep balance, but for the 39583905348 times, there is usually better choice than BLM.

[Bryn]

So, obviously an 18 drg alliance can do the same thing that an 18 blm alliance can do in Divine might? If that fight isn't a clear indication of BLM overpower, I don't know what will.

Course, there is teh saying, if at first you don't succeed, throw a BLM at it. Or 64. DL medium-rare in 3 minutes anyone?

[NynJa]

well 6 drg's did beat KS scorps...


18 mnk's did beat DM.

[Lordwafik]

well 6 drg's did beat KS scorps...


18 mnk's did beat DM.

And a 15 RNG 3 BRD ally beat DM too.

But once again, if melee do it, /praise! if blms do it /spit!

[BRP]

The difference is BLM can solo or duo the scorps easily ;o. And you can do DM with 15 BLM and 3 leechers ;o. Whatever lol, its the fact melees can't melee on stuff is the problem.

[Bryn]

Get back to me when 64 DRGs or RNGs take down DL in 3 mins.

And while 6 DRGs may be able to do that scorp KS, so can 3 BLMs. Can 3 DRGs do it? Um, yeah...

[Lordwafik]

Watch me get pounded for saying this, but...

If melees wanna do that stuff.. lvl blm! All jobs werent made to be identical.

Same reason you level sam if you wanna use GK's, lvl BST if you like charming shit, lvl NIN to solo high lvl shit, lvl blm if you wanna use aga3 magic.

I levelled both mage and melee jobs for the different things they can do. If all my jobs can do the same shit, I wouldnt have levelled anything besides BLM in to begin with.

[aers]

Get back to me when 64 DRGs or RNGs take down DL in 3 mins.

And while 6 DRGs may be able to do that scorp KS, so can 3 BLMs. Can 3 DRGs do it? Um, yeah...

64 slug -> regain feather -> slug -> eagle eye shot would kill DL.

[Xavier]

Get back to me when 64 DRGs or RNGs take down DL in 3 mins.

I think BLM is on the whole overpowered too, but pre-nerf, 64 RNGs would be overwhelming force on Dynamis Lord...he'd die instantly. "Slug, Barrage, Slug, Icarus-Slug, Eagle Eye Shot"x64 was FAR more burst dmg than 64 BLM could do in the same amount of time. Post-nerf, meh, hard to say, RNG have a higher chance of missing, dmg isn't as consistant.

When I've killed Dynamis Lord, it was with 35-42 people (omg 2boxes hard to say the actual # of people), and not all of them were on fk-off dmg jobs, and the fight still only lasts as long as a round of chainspell stun. 64 RNG...would've been something to see lol.

[nivlakian]

Get back to me when 64 DRGs or RNGs take down DL in 3 mins.

Well, people already have stated that it would be possible for 64RNGs to kill DL.

Are there 64DRGs anywhere that would try?

And while 6 DRGs may be able to do that scorp KS, so can 3 BLMs. Can 3 DRGs do it? Um, yeah...

The only reason 3DRG probably couldn't is due to lack of crowd control I'd imagine.

[Bryn]

Damage isn't the only reason 64 BLMs can take down DL. You're forgetting Stun, of which RNG's lack. And yeah, 64 regain feathers, I'm sure that's realistic... Although I find it interesting that RNGs would need such a hard to get, annoying item just to match what a BLM can do. And if you want to throw items into the mix, we go vile elixirs, pro-ethers, etc.

Pre-nerf, RNGs might have been able to. Stress the might. But not now. And 65 WARs, or 64 DRKs... no chance. DL gets a chance to act, and people get raped. Oblivion Smash anyone?

[DrObvious]

I see this more and more often, blm/nin, and I hate it. It gives them an excuse to do nothing but overnuke.

Blm/rdm is almost as bad; the lack of curagas and -nas IS relevant. Especially in mid-level xp parties, having the blm able to toss out a sealed cure or curaga will cut downtime a lot.

Unfortunately that's why many blms play the job: they like seeing zomg big numbers.

/nin does little for surviablity...stoneskin+blink>utsuemi

At fafnir sure, although you could probably make it work with smns dispensing buffs. On anything where you're actually standing out of aoe range? No. Depending on when you take hate, you can absorb 9 hits with utsusemi, that's way more damage and time you're saving yourself than having stoneskin(1-2 hits) and blink(pray for 2 hits). But yeah, blm/nin is pretty stupid. All I'm saying is that arguing that blm is too soft is a stupid defense for blm because there are ways around that. Personally I die a little on the inside every time I see anything other than blm/whm.

To Kaylia,

I went blm heavy on the latter part of CoP and went undefeated on every single mission. I doubt many people who use traditional setups can say that. Saying that blm isn't great for cop missions(at least the latter ones) is misleading. I do agree that there are better options than blm early on.

We've been using melee at Fafhogg for a while now. BLM can still outdamage them since the fight is so short, but melee definately doesn't suck as bad as people make it out to be. Part of the problem is the Blind effect of Hurricane Wing, while there is no equivalent status effect for BLMs which makes their resist rate skyrocket.

Melees aren't useless, but it all comes down to this(emphasis mine).

lol last time I was in a alliance that killed Nidhogg it took 19 mins.. we had 2 WAR/NINs beating on it and a THF and a MNK.. maybe more melee than that. Seriously we have tanked Fafnir with WAR/NINs and they held hate better than PLD against BLM nukes due to the rampage spam done with ridill in offhand for tp. If have your melee do tons of frag and light SCs on Fafhogg for your BLMs to MB you will smoke him fast.

they held hate better than your PLDs. 19 mins is slightly over average for our kill times and we tank with PLDs and damage with mostly BLMs and a few SMNs. BLMs > SMNs for Fafhogg. we smoke them faster than you do without SCing, which is why we see better than you why melees are mostly irrelevant.

[nivlakian]

Damage isn't the only reason 64 BLMs can take down DL. You're forgetting Stun, of which RNG's lack. And yeah, 64 regain feathers, I'm sure that's realistic... Although I find it interesting that RNGs would need such a hard to get, annoying item just to match what a BLM can do. And if you want to throw items into the mix, we go vile elixirs, pro-ethers, etc.

Pre-nerf, RNGs might have been able to. Stress the might. But not now. And 65 WARs, or 64 DRKs... no chance. DL gets a chance to act, and people get raped. Oblivion Smash anyone?

The RNGs wouldn't need those feathers, you just ignored Xavier's post. You stress the might, but we're just speculating really... have you seen 64 RNGs try? You can blink oblivion smash btw.

[Nny]

Pre-nerf, RNGs might have been able to. Stress the might. But not now. And 65 WARs, or 64 DRKs... no chance. DL gets a chance to act, and people get raped. Oblivion Smash anyone?

64 rightly timed Mighty Strikes+Steel Cyclones could do it. 8)

Finding 64 lv75 WARs wouldn't be hard either considering how popular the job is now. I wasn't able to find 30 lv75 WARs with Steel Cyclone access though when I wanted to do all WARs v.s. Vrtra (Hell, I hardly found 10), so that's a whole different story though \:

As far as the whole TP thing...

What mobs does it actually matter on? Tiamat, Jorm, Ouryu, Vrtra, and Fafhogg?

Fafhogg> It's not that big of a deal considering he has auto-meditate. The only time it really makes a difference is when you have multiple jobs with multi-proct weapons....a.k.a. several Ridill WARs.

If you could fight him with 12 Ridill WARs+3 WHMs+3 BRDs, he'd die in no time flat (With Soul Voice songs and Mighty Strikes, I'm sure he could die in sub-5 minutes). No other jobs really give him enough TP to be "omgwtfspam". As it is now, WAR/NIN has the ability to do the most damage on him without worrying about dieing because of Utsusemi, the only downfall being that Ridill gives a lot of TP. Ofcoarse, Ridill's don't just drop from the sky either.

NIN's pretty insane...they can match a BLM's damage on him while giving it hardly any TP ala Subtle Blow and still have extra Shadow/Evasion/Debuffs \: I'm sure MNK/WAR (As I believe someone stated earliar) is really in the same boat, outragous damage without giving much TP.

The only time RNG/WARs really give a significant amount of TP is with Barrage (As long as they don't poke with their daggers), which is only 2-3 times a fight. DRK/DRG/ect. I'll be honest, I've never seen a really good one in action to really say what's up for them x:

Are BLMs the best for him? No doubt, I'm not saying they aren't. Not only do they bring high damage with low TP given, but also self-upkeep with stoneskin/cures aswell as the ability to sleep. Are you going to wipe because you replace a BLM with a melee? No. Is it going to take longer? If it's a good melee, no. Is it going to be a harder fight? Possibly, but considering just how easy Fafhogg is...I don't see how him using a few more wings is the end of the world. The move does hardly any damage at all. Fafnir isn't a MP heavy fight considering just how slow he attacks.

Tiamat/Jorm> Ok, melees can't melee them. On the other hand, there's TPable mobs for both of them. I do 1-1.5k Steel Cyclones/Ground Strikes every 2-3 minutes with Martial Bhuj/Martial Sword. Not as much as it would be if I could melee, but at the same time BLMs do less against him too. I can't really say what a BLM does to him since I normally have damage filtered in that fight, but I know it can't be all that impressive if it's -50% damage.

Vrtra> I've only fought him with SMN strat, never seen either BLM or melee damage.

Ouryu> lol, melee damage sucks bad, but skillchains are sexy.

And looking around where TP doesn't really matter (Regarding the whole "High Deffense/High Evasion" statement somebody made)...

4 Base Gods> Genbu does have way too much defense, Suzaku and Byakko have really high evasion, Seiyru is a bitch with Paralyze-ga and Dispell-ga. BLM will win most of the time....on mobs that take less then 5 minutes to kill.

Kirin/KB> Kirin has pretty bad defense, but he also resist magic really badly aswell. He's also a 30-40 min fight...BLMs spend a lot of time resting, melees don't ever have to. He constantly stops to do TP attacks/cast magic; it's not like melees spend the whole time trying to catch up, that's hardly ever an issue. I think the main problem is melees that sub /THF. I'm not sure how good DRK/WAR ect. would be against him, but having to wait for him to cast a long enough spell to SA+WS is a bitch. As WAR/NIN I can either use Mistral Axe or run up to his projected path and WS as he passes me.

So yeah...WAR has 0 problem on him, and I'm sure the same goes for NIN and MNK, where as other melees seemed to be fucked. What else is new?

KB...I really have no clue why people make their melees TP on surrounding mobs, expecially if they make them do Spirit's Within. He's sooooo easy to damage. His DEF is horrible for a HNM though EVA is pretty high. He's also easy to gravity, not exactly a chase fight...

So after all that's said, I think changing TP isn't the issue for melee's v.s. BLMs.

1) Good melees can match/surpass the damage a good BLM does. However, said melee needs rare gear whereas BLM's gear isn't exactly hard to come by. Some melee gear easier to come by then others, some only a handful will see.

If end-game melee gear were easier to obtain, you would see more melees matching/surpassing the damage of a BLM on endgame mobs.

2) "Good" melees also only imply to those that I've actually witnessed doing it....MNKs, RNGs, WARs, SAM, and NINs. The 5 melee jobs that everybody knows does well anyway.

DRKs (Excluding CoP Wyrms, and Souleater+multiproct), DRG, and THFs get left in the dust.

I'd much rather see those jobs get buffed up then something else be fucked with \: Things really are fine as is for the other melees.

[Eaglestrike]

Make tp given to mob based on damage. SE logs %'s and fractions between attacks so you could do it so every 50 damage someone does to a mob the mob gets a certain amount of tp. Then Subtle Blow will further decrease this (say something like subtle blow+25 makes it so the mob has to get 75 dmg per the above amount).

This way it's 'equal' between melee and mages without nerfing melees further or ruining Subtle Blow. It ruins blm's soloing but oh welllllllllll...

[Kaylia]

To Kaylia,

I went blm heavy on the latter part of CoP and went undefeated on every single mission. I doubt many people who use traditional setups can say that. Saying that blm isn't great for cop missions(at least the latter ones) is misleading. I do agree that there are better options than blm early on.

Keep in mind mission arent that hard. You can win with any balanced setup without too many problems, as long everyone know wtf they are doing ( which is not always the case sadly).

I'm not going as far as saying BLM is bad for CoP, but just because the job work well doesn't mean there isn't anything better. More often then not, you just take what you have and go with. Those setups are rarely optimal and tend to lose. If you compare a BLM party with them, yeah, blm win. However, I don't think it's fair to compare a party where every job was picked carefully to a random pickup party.

However, I would give a thumb up to BLM for being able to do good on CoP's missions naked. It's probably the only reason I used BLM for every mission when I was helping people (beside my sam/rng for goblin and bomb), and let other buy gear for their melee


I would like to brag about us not losing any fight on our first run, but it would be lying. I will however brag about us not having any faqs, or info when we did those BC. Well, almost nothing. That fucker Russta beat us on airship BC by 1 week cause we were slacking.

Finding 64 lv75 WARs wouldn't be hard either considering how popular the job is now. I wasn't able to find 30 lv75 WARs with Steel Cyclone access though when I wanted to do all WARs v.s. Vrtra (Hell, I hardly found 10), so that's a whole different story though \:

WAR are by nature lazy. I tried to make a all warrior 5AA battle but ended up quitting the game before getting enough people.

If you could fight him with 12 Ridill WARs+3 WHMs+3 BRDs, he'd die in no time flat (With Soul Voice songs and Mighty Strikes, I'm sure he could die in sub-5 minutes).

Ridill is definitively nice, but damage difference isn't as good on HNM then it is in xp, especially when axe merit are capped. I still regret quitting before comparing axe torque+merit on HNM versus a ridill war.

Anyway, with outside healing/haste/dia, the thing would hit the floor really quick. I wonder if you could add a range for acid bolt in there. If def down effect stick, that would own fafnir so bad.

4 Base Gods> Genbu does have way too much defense, Suzaku and Byakko have really high evasion, Seiyru is a bitch with Paralyze-ga and Dispell-ga. BLM will win most of the time....on mobs that take less then 5 minutes to kill.

War/nin and mnk/nin (with brd) win on Byakko and Seiryu (as long they have a nice person outside alliance to paralyna them). The only time I parsed suzaku, I parsed close to BLM, but I died midfight. Dunno really for that one, but melee probably do better than blm.


For Kirin, I really wish I had more parser result but LS didnt want to let melee mess around back then
I parsed the last 20-30% of the battle and won again damage wise. It was something like 17% for me, 14% for both mnk (1 melee, 1 chi blast) and blm were ranging from 12% to ~1% (a few died near the end and were replaced. but I'm pretty sure the one with highest result stayed for the whole fight).

I don't know if those result represent what would happen if I stayed for the whole fight but doing as much dmg surprised me. When you consider half of the blm dmg were done on the 3 MBs we did (dragon kick -->mistral axe since it was kited) , having melee for that fight can't be bad.

I'd much rather see those jobs get buffed up then something else be fucked with \: Things really are fine as is for the other melees.

It's also what I think, not that I would mind if they give WAR more goodies.

I don't know why everyone ask BLM to be nerfed. If they keep talking like that, something similar to what happened to RNG will happen, and god know RNG were overrated before patch.