DD nin in lower levels

[Nny]

You can be excellent at evading, you can be excellent at DD, or you can be "OK" at being an evasive DD, but you cant be an excellent evasive DD.

It's called Utsusemi. :wink: Viola, you're excellent at evading. Then offensive equipment, food, and JA/JTs (a.k.a. /WAR) and viola, you're excellent at DD.

[DrObvious]

You can be excellent at evading, you can be excellent at DD, or you can be "OK" at being an evasive DD, but you cant be an excellent evasive DD.

But you don't NEED to be an excellent evasive DD in exp, so why does it matter? With a bard a nin that can't keep shadows up sucks, really bad. A war with haste tanking a fully enfeebled mob can almost go from ichi to ichi too.

[Orfeo]

I hate people who try to be a DD Tank.

K guess you hate warriors then, since they are DD tank's.

you cant do two things effectively.
try all you might...but it just doesnt work.

RDM can cure and enfeeble very well in the same party. My WAR atleast can tank exp mobs in normal party set ups. BLM can nuke and cure. List goes on.

I'm not doubting that NIN/WAR with haub and everything can tank well, but that's at 75. At 75 you have acess to haidate and panther+1 though, which makes a big difference.

[NynJa]

You can be excellent at evading, you can be excellent at DD, or you can be "OK" at being an evasive DD, but you cant be an excellent evasive DD.

It's called Utsusemi. :wink: Viola, you're excellent at evading. Then offensive equipment, food, and JA/JTs (a.k.a. /WAR) and viola, you're excellent at DD.

NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.
NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.
NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.

Your shadows arent permanent...

RDM can cure and enfeeble very well in the same party. My WAR atleast can tank exp mobs in normal party set ups. BLM can nuke and cure. List goes on.

RDM's lose out on a chunk of MP gear in place of enfeebling gear, allthough enfeebling gear is pretty trash. I dont really see the point of enfeebling really since a mob should die in 40-50 seconds upon engaging. by the time you finish enfeebling, its 60% dead.

BLM's can cure... whens the last time you saw a blm accept an invite to be main healer ?? never

if WAR's can tank and DD at the same time, how come when I out parse war's they bitch and moan about how they were tanking, which in turn nerfed their dmg ?? Because you cant do these two things effectively.

[Russta]

if WAR's can tank and DD at the same time, how come when I out parse war's they bitch and moan about how they were tanking, which in turn nerfed their dmg ?? Because you cant do these two things effectively.

Or it could also be because the Warriors you partied with fucking sucked.

[NynJa]

if WAR's can tank and DD at the same time, how come when I out parse war's they bitch and moan about how they were tanking, which in turn nerfed their dmg ?? Because you cant do these two things effectively.

Or it could also be because the Warriors you partied with fucking sucked.

/shrug
maybe

[Russta]

if WAR's can tank and DD at the same time, how come when I out parse war's they bitch and moan about how they were tanking, which in turn nerfed their dmg ?? Because you cant do these two things effectively.

Or it could also be because the Warriors you partied with fucking sucked.

/shrug
maybe

I personally think it's very easy to both tank and DD at the same time but only under the right conditions. If Haste and Elegy are on constantly I can full DD tank the majority of what you would EXP on at 75 as Warrior. I do fully understand why you would think it's not possible though.

[Xavier]

The argument there is that because a Warrior has to recast Utsusemi and say, a mnk/war doesn't, that the warrior is losing out on 100-400 (ridill/double attack etc) dmg every time he casts it. But I think it doesn't have to bo so extreme that you have to focus on just 1 aspect, instead of mix and matching. No reason you can't do both reasonably well instead of just 1 thing perfectly.

[nivlakian]

You can be excellent at evading, you can be excellent at DD, or you can be "OK" at being an evasive DD, but you cant be an excellent evasive DD.

It's called Utsusemi. :wink: Viola, you're excellent at evading. Then offensive equipment, food, and JA/JTs (a.k.a. /WAR) and viola, you're excellent at DD.

NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.
NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.
NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.

Your shadows arent permanent...

They can be under the right conditions like Russta mentioned above. With Elegy+Slow on the mob, it's almost like the mob isn't even attacking anymore. If somehow the NIN does get hit, provided they have common sense on when to start recasting again... they shouldn't get hit more than twice. When those two effects are on, it should be very easy to get off ichi in between attacks on most mobs.

[NynJa]

I understand, and I agree...

however I get the impression some of the previous posters are implicating that they can both do both things at 100% capacity.

[Nny]

I'm not doubting that NIN/WAR with haub and everything can tank well, but that's at 75. At 75 you have acess to haidate and panther+1 though, which makes a big difference.

Yeah it's possible and easier then tanking on WAR prior to 74, but it doesn't really become good until 60 with Blade:Jin.

NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.
NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.
NIN starts casting Utsusemi:Ichi on NIN
NIN gets hit
NIN's casting is interrupted.

Your shadows arent permanent...

Cast it imbetween hits, lol. It's not difficult. As long as a mob has atleast a slow on it (And that simply requires a WHM or a RDM), then it's very easy to cast Utsusemi: Ichi imbetween mob swings. Hojo's even more powerful, which a NIN with -deffinatly- have.

Add in Elegy and...lol. If you can't cast Utsusemi: Ichi with Elegy on a mob you really have problems.

BLM's can cure... whens the last time you saw a blm accept an invite to be main healer ?? never

I've EXPed with BLM as main healer. My old school deco burning PT back when nobody knew about deco burning was BLM BLM BRD back line.

if WAR's can tank and DD at the same time, how come when I out parse war's they bitch and moan about how they were tanking, which in turn nerfed their dmg ?? Because you cant do these two things effectively

1) Russta covered it

2) No -shit- tanking is going to drop damage. Having to cast Utsusemi = less time swinging = less damage done/less TP gained/less WSs. To say you CAN'T deal damage while tanking is just....

EDIT:

I understand, and I agree...

however I get the impression some of the previous posters are implicating that they can both do both things at 100% capacity.

I do the most damage in an alliance, while tanking, not losing hate, nor taking damage.

It's really, really, really easy. Utsusemi is simply overpowered.

[NynJa]

I do the most damage in an alliance, while tanking, not losing hate, nor taking damage.

It's really, really, really easy. Utsusemi is simply overpowered.

I'd be pretty fucking hesitant to nuke Fafnir too if my main tank was a war/nin...

[Nny]

I'd be pretty fucking hesitant to nuke Fafnir too if my main tank was a war/nin...

. . . .

Well, thank you for voiding any and all opinions you have.

[Xavier]

I do the most damage in an alliance, while tanking, not losing hate, nor taking damage.

It's really, really, really easy. Utsusemi is simply overpowered.

I'd be pretty fucking hesitant to nuke Fafnir too if my main tank was a war/nin...

Thats the same attitude as the people who say pld/nin can't hold hate either, when we can kill Fafnir in 10 min using 2 pld/nin who never lose hate to nothing but blms chain nuking.

People need to stop underrating jobs that aren't nin/war for holding hate.

[Lockecole]

I'd be pretty fucking hesitant to nuke Fafnir too if my main tank was a war/nin...

Access to the most possible damage by a melee on HNMs. Check

Access to Utsusemi and the ability to not get hit by a slowed and elegyed mob. Check.

Access to as much if not more Enmity then anyother job in the game. Check.

Anything else?

[NynJa]

I'd be pretty fucking hesitant to nuke Fafnir too if my main tank was a war/nin...

. . . .

Well, thank you for voiding any and all opinions you have.

hey, you say you "do the most dmg in the alliance"
I say that's true because your alliance is too scared to nuke ballstothewall because of who their tank is, and rightfully so.

Thats the same attitude as the people who say pld/nin can't hold hate either, when we can kill Fafnir in 10 min using 2 pld/nin who never lose hate to nothing but blms chain nuking.

People need to stop underrating jobs that aren't nin/war for holding hate.

pld/nin has more, lots more, tools to pull hate, than a war/nin.

[Xavier]

Thats the same attitude as the people who say pld/nin can't hold hate either, when we can kill Fafnir in 10 min using 2 pld/nin who never lose hate to nothing but blms chain nuking.

People need to stop underrating jobs that aren't nin/war for holding hate.

pld/nin has more, lots more, tools to pull hate, than a war/nin.

Thats just inaccurate. PLD/NIN has cure iv, flash to hold hate. WAR/NIN has provoke, and deals a lot of dmg to hold hate. Its roughly the same thing. The only bad thing is that a WAR/NIN does so while spamming the mob w/ tp, but to each his own I guess.

[FFXIFlux]

Anyways, is it feasible to take ninja to 75 using gear like o-kote, victory rings, haubergeon, etc with fumah's and swift belt as the only haste gear? Or would that just be a major MP sink? Preferably insight from somebody who has done it/partyed with a DD nin tank in lower levels prz

You wear DD gear because thats what you are. You WILL NOT EVADE SHIT NO MATTER WHAT YOUR GEAR until you're at least in the high 60s if not 70s. As a mithra with max evasion merits and PERFECT evasion gear I did not evade AT ALL until high level, by which point with carnage elegy being as unbelievably broken as it is, you don't bother with evasion gear anyway.

At low level:
+65 evasion/skill: Mob never misses.
+65 evasion/skill, mob is blinded: Mob misses 10-20%.
+65 evasion/skill, Mambo and blind: Mob misses a lot.
-15 evasion, Mambo and blind: Mob still misses a lot.
Drunk, AFK, keyboard doesn't work, but mob has carnage elegey, slow, and paralzye on it: Mob manages to get 3 swings off the entire fight and you're never hit.

Seriously, I kept evasion gear with me and sometimes I'd swap out my ochiudo and buff my evasion by 20 or so (always had some evasion with dodge earrings, emperor's hairpin etc. anyway) and mobs might miss me 1 extra time in an entire fight. If the mages sucked to the point where they wouldn't haste me or enfeeble the mob (and forget about even having a bard or being able to land blind yourself even with +15 ninjutsu), evasion gear isn't going to do jack for you, you may as well be wearing DD gear or +def gear.

Now at 75 evasion does actually matter. If I go full out evasion gear, stuff will actually miss me... sometimes... if blinded... and it's like tough or maybe a gimpy VT.

[Nny]

hey, you say you "do the most dmg in the alliance"
I say that's true because your alliance is too scared to nuke ballstothewall because of who their tank is, and rightfully so.

dot dot fucking dot

[Russta]

hey, you say you "do the most dmg in the alliance"
I say that's true because your alliance is too scared to nuke ballstothewall because of who their tank is, and rightfully so.

dot dot fucking dot

lol

I really want to post something in defence of Nynja but... it's Nynja... I just can't do it