Kraken Club (mod edit: a.k.a pld vs. nin)

[Demetrios]

PLD/WAR has a lot more to offer for JoL than PLD/NIN imo... he has a huge selection of Ga-3/ga-enfeebles that he can cast on you, while only 1 tier 4 spell per element. Provoke is going to allow to you keep a lot more hate than avoiding the 600-800 damage per tier 4 nuke that lands on you every so often.

Can a single PLD/NIN or WAR/NIN solo tank Fafnir? Is PLD/NIN or WAR/NIN effective on monsters that cannot be slowed or elegied? (ie Ouryu and stage2 Bahamut) You guys seemed to take a while to finally kill Ouryu, was it because of tank setup or just lack of interest / numbers?

[Litoriceboi]

PLD/WAR has a lot more to offer for JoL than PLD/NIN imo... he has a huge selection of Ga-3/ga-enfeebles that he can cast on you, while only 1 tier 4 spell per element. Provoke is going to allow to you keep a lot more hate than avoiding the 600-800 damage per tier 4 nuke that lands on you every so often.

Can a single PLD/NIN or WAR/NIN solo tank Fafnir? Is PLD/NIN or WAR/NIN effective on monsters that cannot be slowed or elegied? (ie Ouryu and stage2 Bahamut) You guys seemed to take a while to finally kill Ouryu, was it because of tank setup or just lack of interest / numbers?

If you read properly, you would see that he was saying PLD/NIN is better than NIN/WAR in situations where you use NIN/WAR.

[Demetrios]

If you read properly, you would see that he was saying PLD/NIN is better than NIN/WAR in situations where you use NIN/WAR.

First off, he said:

I think my first question is why is the pld getting hit? PLD/WAR was so 2004.

In the Ouryu BCNM PLD/NIN would quickly have all of his shadow stripped, and would end up tanking as if he were a PLD/WAR minus Provoke or Defender. Bahamut#2 would be about the same, because it's extremely difficult to land elegy and hojo/slow consistently throughout the fight. I don't see how you come to your conclusion that he is only refering to fights where NIN would be used. Hell, some LSes use NIN in the Ouryu BCNM, what falls into the definition of a "NIN" fight is relative to what server you're playing.

For the ground kings it really doesn't matter who tanks it, it's all about the same if you have a full 18 person alliance. When you're dealing with small numbers of people (ie a solo tank, minimal MP regen, maybe you're rush pulling it and holding) is a solo PLD/NIN better than NIN?

[Twolves]

Meh, NINs own PLD in nearly all fights except for Ouryu, Jailer of Love, and maybe Vrtra (kited.)

I can make my 75BRD/37WAR get hit for less damage than my PLD on monsters like Tiamat and high level EXP mobs like Uli statues and Aw'Aerns.

I think my first question is why is the pld getting hit? PLD/WAR was so 2004.

And, from my point of view, nin doesn't own shit, because it can't 1) cure itself, and 2) can't do dmg on hnms.

I'd put pld/nin and war/nin over nin/war any day of the week, and fyi, I have all of them leveled, so I feel pretty justified in my statement.

A nin in all DD gear can dd a hnm and do just as much damage as a war/nin as well as debuff.

And it's not like ouryu is even hard to tank on ninja either if you have 2 bouncing hate.

[Litoriceboi]

If you read properly, you would see that he was saying PLD/NIN is better than NIN/WAR in situations where you use NIN/WAR.

By "you", I mean your LS.

Meh, NINs own PLD in nearly all fights except for Ouryu, Jailer of Love, and maybe Vrtra (kited.)

I can make my 75BRD/37WAR get hit for less damage than my PLD on monsters like Tiamat and high level EXP mobs like Uli statues and Aw'Aerns.

According to this, your LS uses NIN/WAR on everything but Ouryu, JoL, and Vrtra.

In the Ouryu BCNM PLD/NIN would quickly have all of his shadow stripped, and would end up tanking as if he were a PLD/WAR minus Provoke or Defender.

We have beaten Ouryu with PLD/NIN. Other people have beaten with PLD/WAR.

Bahamut#2 would be about the same, because it's extremely difficult to land elegy and hojo/slow consistently throughout the fight.

Haven't done this BC yet. We did beat the first Bahamut BC with PLD/NIN though, so we'll see.

For the ground kings it really doesn't matter who tanks it, it's all about the same if you have a full 18 person alliance. When you're dealing with small numbers of people (ie a solo tank, minimal MP regen, maybe you're rush pulling it and holding) is a solo PLD/NIN better than NIN?

IMHO I think PLD/NIN would be better because you can cure yourself and if things got bad, you would have Invincible.

[Xavier]

Can a single PLD/NIN or WAR/NIN solo tank Fafnir?

Uh, I don't think anyone can solo Fafnir that effectively, eventually you get terrored and get hit like a retard.

Is PLD/NIN or WAR/NIN effective on monsters that cannot be slowed or elegied? (ie Ouryu and stage2 Bahamut) You guys seemed to take a while to finally kill Ouryu, was it because of tank setup or just lack of interest / numbers?

war/nin, probably not, but I can count on one hand the # of real HNMs that aren't slowable. pld/nin, sure, because at heart its still a paladin, if it has to take hits, it has the defence in the end to do it.

You said;

I can make my 75BRD/37WAR get hit for less damage than my PLD on monsters like Tiamat

To which I said;

I think my first question is why is the pld getting hit? PLD/WAR was so 2004.

Clearly I was saying why were you using PLD/WAR on Tiamat, since you pointed out a brd can take less dmg, I pointed out a pld shouldn't be getting hit in the first place. Reading skills -1.

is a solo PLD/NIN better than NIN?

Seeing as how on the big HNMs you don't really evade much, and seeing as how 2x march + haste + speedbelt etc can put pld/nin recast down into the low 20s, and seeing as how paladin has that special ability to cure itself instead of rely on other healers, I'd have to say yes maybe?

Unless you were talking about solo solo, as in you're in a party by yourself, in which case obviously not, but I was clearly talking about HNMs. And the example you gave was an extreme case, I'm talking about all things being equal. And, in that case, where its solo tank, minimal mp regen, trying to hold, I'd rather take a rdm/nin, not a nin/war, but nice question.

In the Ouryu BCNM PLD/NIN would quickly have all of his shadow stripped, and would end up tanking as if he were a PLD/WAR minus Provoke or Defender. Bahamut#2 would be about the same, because it's extremely difficult to land elegy and hojo/slow consistently throughout the fight.

and yet magically we've beaten it using pld/nin, don't really see the argument.

A nin in all DD gear can dd a hnm and do just as much damage as a war/nin as well as debuff.

Obviously yes to debuff, no to outdamaging a war, not with ridill anyway.

Breaking down PLD/NIN vs. NIN/WAR
- Pld has lower evasion, but guess what, you're fighting lvl 95 mobs, so your evasion means nothing.
- Nin can debuff, but guess what, I've never seen an alliance without a RDM, debuff skills unimportant.
- 2x March + Haste reduces recast on Flash to around 25secods, utsusemi roughly the same. Guess what, flash is just as strong as provoke, and on a lower recast now.
- Paladin has 300-500mp, which they can use to cure themselves, meaning you can use another damage dealer instead of a healer in the alliance. Ninja has 0mp, meaning they're totally useless outside of main tanking.

I don't exactly see the advantage of nin/war. Pld can have the same recasts as long as you give them haste + 2x march, near limitless mp with refresh + 2x ballad. I'm not saying pld/nin is better in all situations, but for major hnms, it absolutely rapes ninja if your LS knows how to do it. Most don't though, so they just dismiss it and toss ninjas at it like every other NA LS.

[Twolves]

Have you even tried using a fully merited nin dd tanking anything? Until you have you really can't say it doesn't keep up with a ridill war on them. It's pointless to argue over it tho so whatever :D

[Xavier]

Have you even tried using a fully merited nin dd tanking anything? Until you have you really can't say it doesn't keep up with a ridill war on them. It's pointless to argue over it tho so whatever :D

Did you miss the part where I have a 75 nin, and where the vast majority of nin dd gear is interchangeable with sam dd gear, so nice try on brushing it over that I'm ignorant, any other argument?

[Twolves]

Have you even tried using a fully merited nin dd tanking anything? Until you have you really can't say it doesn't keep up with a ridill war on them. It's pointless to argue over it tho so whatever :D

[Xavier]

Have you even tried using a fully merited nin dd tanking anything? Until you have you really can't say it doesn't keep up with a ridill war on them. It's pointless to argue over it tho so whatever :D

Unless you're going to say I don't have +16 katana skill, not sure what you're getting at. I've used around 155 merits last I checked, swapped some things around in the past. If you're going to call that not fully merited, ok. But I assume your main job is ninja, so you have to defend it no matter what.

[Twolves]

exactly

And don't have to defend it, have sam and mnk also. Never said it would out damage war/nin with ridill but it can definatly dd tank hnms the same way wars do.

[Demetrios]

Breaking down PLD/NIN vs. NIN/WAR
- Pld has lower evasion, but guess what, you're fighting lvl 95 mobs, so your evasion means nothing.
- Nin can debuff, but guess what, I've never seen an alliance without a RDM, debuff skills unimportant.
- 2x March + Haste reduces recast on Flash to around 25secods, utsusemi roughly the same. Guess what, flash is just as strong as provoke, and on a lower recast now.
- Paladin has 300-500mp, which they can use to cure themselves, meaning you can use another damage dealer instead of a healer in the alliance. Ninja has 0mp, meaning they're totally useless outside of main tanking.

- 4 shadow Ni vs 3 shadow Ni
- Hojo is stronger than RDM slow
- Kurayami is stronger than RDM blind
- Evasion means jack shit. I agree, but you have +EVA fanboys like Rukenshin who say it is divine (brags about Fafnir's and Tiamat's accuracy in his LJ)... I've never tried it, who knows
- Suiton: Ni lowers a monster's resistance to thunder magic by -30. Threondy is -50 for reference... that's pretty strong for an unresistable spell.
- NIN will be casting Suiton, Kurayami, and Hojo at a 23 second timer as well.
- NIN will get TP faster than a PLD/NIN and skillchain effectively on monsters like Fafnir, Nidhogg, Aspidechlone, Bahamut#2.
- Mijin Gakure garuntees the drop.

edit: suiton and threnody do stack

[Xavier]

4 shadow Ni vs 3 shadow Ni

not really a big deal when you already have an excessive amount of shadows from 2x march + haste in the first place.

Hojo is stronger than RDM slow
- Kurayami is stronger than RDM blind

- Suiton: Ni lowers a monster's resistance to thunder magic by -30. Threondy is -50 for reference... that's pretty strong for an unresistable spell.
- NIN will be casting Suiton, Kurayami, and Hojo at a 23 second timer as well. [/quote]
NIN/RDM using elemental staves anyone? Didn't say they weren't useful.

NIN will be casting Suiton, Kurayami, and Hojo at a 23 second timer as well.

I assume you brought that up for hate as well, except cure iv is far more enmity with a much shorter recast than all of those put together.

NIN will get TP faster than a PLD/NIN and skillchain effectively on monsters like Fafnir, Nidhogg, Aspidechlone, Bahamut#2.

I can't tell if this is a joke or not, but do you really use ninja to skillchain, and not stronger DD jobs? Kinda like, screw nin, get 2 sams to skillchain anyway? I don't even melee on pld/nin, its free tp for the mob.

Mijin Gakure garuntees the drop.

I just lost.

[Palin]

Nin DD can keep up with War DD, and can tank a lot of things DD wise just as well if not better then War, it all depends on how well you're geared and your support. Neither is really better, but they both work extremely well as DD tanks.

Pld/nin vs Nin/war? Its situational. I prefer using Pld/nin on things that do a lot of heavy AoE(CoP Wyrms). I prefer using Nin/war on things that can be DD tanked and don't do a ton of potent AoE(Sky gods, Faf, etc). Its really how your LS uses and prepares for each tank, but they're all good in their own respects.

[Xavier]

but they're all good in their own respects.

NO THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE

[Litoriceboi]

Breaking down PLD/NIN vs. NIN/WAR
- Pld has lower evasion, but guess what, you're fighting lvl 95 mobs, so your evasion means nothing.
- Nin can debuff, but guess what, I've never seen an alliance without a RDM, debuff skills unimportant.
- 2x March + Haste reduces recast on Flash to around 25secods, utsusemi roughly the same. Guess what, flash is just as strong as provoke, and on a lower recast now.
- Paladin has 300-500mp, which they can use to cure themselves, meaning you can use another damage dealer instead of a healer in the alliance. Ninja has 0mp, meaning they're totally useless outside of main tanking.

- 4 shadow Ni vs 3 shadow Ni
- Hojo is stronger than RDM slow
- Kurayami is stronger than RDM blind
- Evasion means jack shit. I agree, but you have +EVA fanboys like Rukenshin who say it is divine (brags about Fafnir's and Tiamat's accuracy in his LJ)... I've never tried it, who knows
- Suiton: Ni lowers a monster's resistance to thunder magic by -30. Threondy is -50 for reference... that's pretty strong for an unresistable spell.
- NIN will be casting Suiton, Kurayami, and Hojo at a 23 second timer as well.
- NIN will get TP faster than a PLD/NIN and skillchain effectively on monsters like Fafnir, Nidhogg, Aspidechlone, Bahamut#2.
- Mijin Gakure garuntees the drop.

edit: suiton and threnody do stack

- 1 Shadow isn't going to make a difference when recast is so low to begin with.
- What I'm hearing is all Hojo: Ni does is overwrite Slow. But, a pimp RDM's Slow is more potent. Either way, both stack with Elegy.
- Blind doesn't do shit.
- See above.
- Meh... Cure > Elemental Debuffs IMO
- Who needs SC's? And if we did SC, that's what melees are for.
- Can't deny that Mijin Gakure does guarantee drop.

[Demetrios]

- A lower 30 resist on Thunder is pretty helpful to BLMs. Threnody is hard to land and dependent on the BRD's stats. Suiton is unresistable. Same goes for every other element. Moreover, if you put 5 merits into Suiton its effect is active for 30 seconds (base is 20, merits give you 10 if you get all 5), which it can theoretically be active 24/7 due to haste.
- SCs help with BLM resist rates. When a NIN is in a skillchain it frees up other spots in an alliance for heavy DDs such as BLMs. A NIN can SC, tank, and enfeeble at the same time pretty effectively.
- Blind lowers the monster's accuracy >.> it does something. I don't believe in +EVA gear, but there are those who swear by it on high level HNMs.
- That one shadow on Ni (and a 23 second reacst timer with hojo+elegied mob) allows you to almost duo NIN tank Ni only on HNM situations, removing the chance for Ichi interrupts.

- As for Hojo, who knows for sure, I should take my dual box RDM account to Ballista with me and get some definate answers on the % slow rates.

[Elcura]

A RDM would need quite a bit of enfeebling and/or MND gear to get their slow to the same potency as a NINs or above it. Luckily BG has 2-3 very pimp RDMs (and I'm not counting myself, cause my gear sucks).

[Xavier]

- A lower 30 resist on Thunder is pretty helpful to BLMs. Threnody is hard to land and dependent on the BRD's stats. Suiton is unresistable. Same goes for every other element. Moreover, if you put 5 merits into Suiton its effect is active for 30 seconds (base is 20, merits give you 10 if you get all 5), which it can theoretically be active 24/7 due to haste.
- SCs help with BLM resist rates. When a NIN is in a skillchain it frees up other spots in an alliance for heavy DDs such as BLMs. A NIN can SC, tank, and enfeeble at the same time pretty effectively.
- Blind lowers the monster's accuracy >.> it does something. I don't believe in +EVA gear, but there are those who swear by it on high level HNMs.
- That one shadow on Ni (and a 23 second reacst timer with hojo+elegied mob) allows you to almost duo NIN tank Ni only on HNM situations, removing the chance for Ichi interrupts.

- As for Hojo, who knows for sure, I should take my dual box RDM account to Ballista with me and get some definate answers on the % slow rates.

You dodged the point where a nin/rdm can do all of that, and we almost NEVER skillchain Fafnir, and yet we still kill him in 10 minutes so, they can't really be that important since our blms don't get resisted in the first place.

[Demetrios]

u dodged the point where a nin/rdm can do all of that,

I didn't respond to it because I thought you meant it in a damage dealing fashion, which I can't comment on. If you mean as a main tank... I don't see how you're getting hate in the first place. I am speaking of using Suiton as a tool for hate and helping BLM resist rates.

Skillchains help with resist rates, and increase the BLM's damage. They're not necessary of course, but if you're not using ideal parties (which happens a lot for my ls at least) then making sure those BLMs who you do have never get resisted is important, especially in instances like Ouryu and Bahamut#2.