Kraken Club (mod edit: a.k.a pld vs. nin)

[Xavier]

actually NIN gets better double attack than warrior, not that I'm on his side, they just do, unless you merit double attack, which I've put off, I'm seriously considering Berserk/aggressor.

Thats a pretty retarded post, since ninja don't get a double attack II job trait, whereas warrior get enhanced double attack from their af1. Thats such a false statement its not even funny. Warrior has a higher %.

You're confusing the perceived rate of activation vs. the actual percent.

[Lockecole]

actually NIN gets better double attack than warrior, not that I'm on his side, they just do, unless you merit double attack, which I've put off, I'm seriously considering Berserk/aggressor.

Thats a pretty retarded post, since ninja don't get a double attack II job trait, whereas warrior get enhanced double attack from their af1. Thats such a false statement its not even funny. Warrior has a higher %.

You're confusing the perceived rate of activation vs. the actual percent.

LAWLZ NIN LIK ATAKS FASTER SO EET PROCZ MOIR!!11

[XxSlusherxx]

actually NIN gets better double attack than warrior, not that I'm on his side, they just do, unless you merit double attack, which I've put off, I'm seriously considering Berserk/aggressor.

Thats a pretty retarded post, since ninja don't get a double attack II job trait, whereas warrior get enhanced double attack from their af1. Thats such a false statement its not even funny. Warrior has a higher %.

You're confusing the perceived rate of activation vs. the actual percent.

procs more because of ninjas attack speed.

assuming thats what you meant, yeah thats what I'm saying. lol AF boots, those increase double attack by about 1.5%. and I accounted for double attack merits so, I think I covered my bases.

EDIT: Guess I better add Joyese and Ridill since I'm sure thats coming, yes war with multi-sword will double attack more.

[Lockecole]

actually NIN gets better double attack than warrior, not that I'm on his side, they just do, unless you merit double attack, which I've put off, I'm seriously considering Berserk/aggressor.

Thats a pretty retarded post, since ninja don't get a double attack II job trait, whereas warrior get enhanced double attack from their af1. Thats such a false statement its not even funny. Warrior has a higher %.

You're confusing the perceived rate of activation vs. the actual percent.

procs more because of ninjas attack speed.

assuming thats what you meant, yeah thats what I'm saying. lol AF boots, those increase double attack by about 1.5%. and I accounted for double attack merits so, I think I covered my bases.

Yes I did mean that and I was mocking that train of thought. It's people like you who think along the lines of something proccing more often because the action is taken more, and then assuming that = their double attack being better. It doesnt. 10% double attack is the same thing if you attack 10 times and double attack once...or 100 times and double attack 10 times. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

[Daahan]

a ninja having one shadow more than a pld having is not that big of a deal. The difference is, when a ninja tanks and gets his shadows knocked off against big HNMs, there is a large chance that he/she could get killed. PLD can take a few hits and can cure themselves if a healer is not able to get to them fast enough.

For most endgame situations, PLD > NIN.

but there are a lot of cases where NIN > PLD

[XxSlusherxx]

I can see where your coming from, and your right, 10% will always even out. And you can also talk about how tp being related to the delay of the weapon makes it so it all evens out. And I used to feel that way, but the truth is in practice it just dosen't turn out that way, in most situations, a nin will out-tp a warrior.

[Xavier]

Yes I did mean that and I was mocking that train of thought. It's people like you who think along the lines of something proccing more often because the action is taken more, and then assuming that = their double attack being better. It doesnt. 10% double attack is the same thing if you attack 10 times and double attack once...or 100 times and double attack 10 times. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Its too simple of a concept for people to understand.

[Sidd]

Yes I did mean that and I was mocking that train of thought. It's people like you who think along the lines of something proccing more often because the action is taken more, and then assuming that = their double attack being better. It doesnt. 10% double attack is the same thing if you attack 10 times and double attack once...or 100 times and double attack 10 times. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Its too simple of a concept for people to understand.

it really is. pretty fuckin sad.

[Twolves]

a ninja having one shadow more than a pld having is not that big of a deal. The difference is, when a ninja tanks and gets his shadows knocked off against big HNMs, there is a large chance that he/she could get killed. PLD can take a few hits and can cure themselves if a healer is not able to get to them fast enough.

In 2004 when all ninjas would wear is scorpian harness and tank beastmen gods that was true, but now people arent stupid and wear arhats+1 shit so nin usually takes the same/less damage then most paladins.

[Lockecole]

a ninja having one shadow more than a pld having is not that big of a deal. The difference is, when a ninja tanks and gets his shadows knocked off against big HNMs, there is a large chance that he/she could get killed. PLD can take a few hits and can cure themselves if a healer is not able to get to them fast enough.

In 2004 when all ninjas would wear is scorpian harness and tank beastmen gods that was true, but now people arent stupid and wear arhats+1 shit so nin usually takes the same/less damage then most paladins.

Byakko caps out on crits on my NIN usually and his capped out crits (almost always the same amount everytime) are less then our full Koenig PLDs when they get critted. So yeah...you're right. The concept that a NIN is fragile is so 2004. About the only thing we don't have is the extra couple hundred HP that a PLD gets. (Not sure the exact amount...in the 200 area, give or take.)

[Ankiseth]

Yeah I have come to notice this recently since I started increasing the bounds of my tanking. I got the Arhat's HQ head and body and with my ring and earth staff decided to start trying some tougher stuff. I could tell from gods that I would take the same and sometimes less as PLDs so one day I decided to tank Faust to see how it would work with a NIN, we usually used PLD. Well yeah it was a joke and I got hit for less than the PLDs do and evaded quite a bit thanks to mambo x2 and 2 Melody Earring +1, which are sex. NIN can do anything a PLD can do, the only issue is the loss of enmity pulling abilities, but if you spam ninjutsu that works too.

[supaswimma]

but if you look at nin like rukenshin, they have gear where they take less damage than pld on cop wyrms and shit.

[Genosync]

Yes I did mean that and I was mocking that train of thought. It's people like you who think along the lines of something proccing more often because the action is taken more, and then assuming that = their double attack being better. It doesnt. 10% double attack is the same thing if you attack 10 times and double attack once...or 100 times and double attack 10 times. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Its too simple of a concept for people to understand.

it really is. pretty fuckin sad.

I'm just glad no one went off on another tangent, and said that AGI makes Double Attack proc more. 'cause I know someone that swears up and down it does. -.- And it's funny.

[Lockecole]

Yes I did mean that and I was mocking that train of thought. It's people like you who think along the lines of something proccing more often because the action is taken more, and then assuming that = their double attack being better. It doesnt. 10% double attack is the same thing if you attack 10 times and double attack once...or 100 times and double attack 10 times. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE.

Its too simple of a concept for people to understand.

it really is. pretty fuckin sad.

I'm just glad no one went off on another tangent, and said that AGI makes Double Attack proc more. 'cause I know someone that swears up and down it does. -.- And it's funny.

You didn't know AGI effects Double attack? Oh yeah...so does HP, Enmity, and Defence.

Edit:...and the color red.

[noremorse]

so yea kraken clubs are pretty fun. . .

[Tanthalas]

Spamming ninjutsu doesn't register a significant amount of enmity at level 75 in my opinion. At level 40, it's amazing however. Best way to keep hate is to not lose hate by getting hit, among other favorite techniques you might all have.

[Lockecole]

Spamming ninjutsu doesn't register a significant amount of enmity at level 75 in my opinion. At level 40, it's amazing however. Best way to keep hate is to not lose hate by getting hit, among other favorite techniques you might all have.

I dunno about debuffs (I seem to pull hate a significant amount when I spam my debuffs), but I can second that on elemental ninjutsu. I fooled around with a nuke build-up while fighting gods, and seriously not one ever went unresisted completely with 300+ Ninjutsu skill/elemental staves etc. It also in no way effected my hate...it felt almost like I held hate better without it. Needless to say I dont think it hurts to throw a hojo/blind everytime its up, but I wouldnt bother with anything else.

[Seph]

Also you forgot at 2006 pld can wear homam haste+12% and fast cast trait plus can get fast cast earring = fast cast II as pld/nin
can spam utsi + faster flash and already you got marchx2 and haste ...
pld/nin with good support own nin/war anytime

I dont play nin or pld so not trying to defend my job

[Demetrios]

a ninja having one shadow more than a pld having is not that big of a deal. The difference is, when a ninja tanks and gets his shadows knocked off against big HNMs, there is a large chance that he/she could get killed. PLD can take a few hits and can cure themselves if a healer is not able to get to them fast enough.

For most endgame situations, PLD > NIN.

but there are a lot of cases where NIN > PLD

If a NIN gets hit with the proper gear, no they will not die any faster than a PLD. My NIN with -50% damage taken gear + defender + tav tacos takes about the same amount of damage per hit on Fafnir/Tiamat as my full koenig PLD/WAR in -35% damage taken gear. If PLD/WAR had more sources of -% damage gear taken I'd sure use it a lot more, but in order to achieve that number on PLD as of today you have to sacrafice a lot of DEF, VIT, enmity, HP, and MP.

Also you forgot at 2006 pld can wear homam haste+12% and fast cast trait plus can get fast cast earring = fast cast II as pld/nin
can spam utsi + faster flash and already you got marchx2 and haste ...
pld/nin with good support own nin/war anytime

I'm assuming you're using two brds in one pt, because I honestly don't see where you're getting all of this MP if you're only working on 3 mp / 3 sec. I really don't have that kind of manpower to work with to put two BRDs in one PT at most HNMs.

Edit: If you honestly could cast Flash every 23 seconds by using 2x march and haste gear (theoretical 50% haste cap on all spells) then at 3 mp / tick would you run into negative MP after a few minutes assuming you never cast any cures? Using AF2 body could offset this some, but in the air you basically have to spam cures along with flash in order to gain hate since your NIN sj doesn't help too much then.

[Elcura]

a ninja having one shadow more than a pld having is not that big of a deal. The difference is, when a ninja tanks and gets his shadows knocked off against big HNMs, there is a large chance that he/she could get killed. PLD can take a few hits and can cure themselves if a healer is not able to get to them fast enough.

For most endgame situations, PLD > NIN.

but there are a lot of cases where NIN > PLD

If a NIN gets hit with the proper gear, no they will not die any faster than a PLD. My NIN with -50% damage taken gear + defender + tav tacos takes about the same amount of damage per hit on Fafnir/Tiamat as my full koenig PLD/WAR in -35% damage taken gear. If PLD/WAR had more sources of -% damage gear taken I'd sure use it a lot more, but in order to achieve that number on PLD as of today you have to sacrafice a lot of DEF, VIT, enmity, HP, and MP.

[quote:2a454]Also you forgot at 2006 pld can wear homam haste+12% and fast cast trait plus can get fast cast earring = fast cast II as pld/nin
can spam utsi + faster flash and already you got marchx2 and haste ...
pld/nin with good support own nin/war anytime

I'm assuming you're using two brds in one pt, because I honestly don't see where you're getting all of this MP if you're only working on 3 mp / 3 sec. I really don't have that kind of manpower to work with to put two BRDs in one PT at most HNMs.

Edit: If you honestly could cast Flash every 23 seconds by using 2x march and haste gear (theoretical 50% haste cap on all spells) then at 3 mp / tick would you run into negative MP after a few minutes assuming you never cast any cures? Using AF2 body could offset this some, but in the air you basically have to spam cures along with flash in order to gain hate since your NIN sj doesn't help too much then.[/quote:2a454]

That's why you use a RDM as well....