Kraken Club (mod edit: a.k.a pld vs. nin)

[½pint]

Wow, I've noticed so many people replying to posts but not reading them properly.

Either there are 2 bards in the party and a red mage in the party, (6mp/tick+march)
OR there is 1 bard and a red mage in the party(3mp/tick+march)

[Xavier]

I really don't have that kind of manpower to work with to put two BRDs in one PT at most HNMs.

Our LS doesn't have the manpower to bring WHMs to HNMs so we use plds instead lol?

Really, what kind of excuse is that.

[Demetrios]

I don't know about your server, but on mine a 75 WHM isn't as rare as a 75 BRD. Maybe Cerberus is just weird in that way, but we are. My LS has a exceedingly difficult time getting a sufficient number of BRDs at an event. Bahamut must just be so special to have lv75 BRDs with sea access in plenty .

[Orfeo]

I don't know about your server, but on mine a 75 WHM isn't as rare as a 75 BRD. Maybe Cerberus is just weird in that way, but we are. My LS has a exceedingly difficult time getting a sufficient number of BRDs at an event. Bahamut must just be so special to have lv75 BRDs with sea access in plenty .

Off the top of my head I can think of 4 or 5 level 75 brds in BG, but then again I can think of a lot of WHM's too <_<

[Xavier]

I don't know about your server, but on mine a 75 WHM isn't as rare as a 75 BRD.

Because, you know, nobody ever invites brds to xp parties. I can see why nobody would level the job when its so hard to get to 75.

[Cautery]

Because, you know, nobody ever invites brds to xp parties. I can see why nobody would level the job when its so hard to get to 75.

I always want a BRD when I do my PalaBurn or PalaWar PT! BRDs rocks!

Ok I'm 75...

[Demetrios]

Of all you Lv75 bards out there wants to play it at events? Ever happen to complain to your LS leader to allow you play a job you like? Ever log off or not log on because you don't feel like playing the role of minstrel bitch for the umpteenth time?

What? You'd rather nuke or pound the living shit out of something? No wait, you're the guy who gets such wonderful kudos as "OMG THIS BALLAD^2 RAWKZ," "THANKS DUDE THAT 1700 STEEL CYCLONE ON TIAMAT WAS ALL YOU MAN, COULDN"T HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT THAT MINUET OR ETUDE" ('-'*)

err... maybe not

[Xavier]

Of all you Lv75 bards out there wants to play it at events? Ever happen to complain to your LS leader to allow you play a job you like? Ever log off or not log on because you don't feel like playing the role of minstrel bitch for the umpteenth time?

What? You'd rather nuke or pound the living shit out of something? No wait, you're the guy who gets such wonderful kudos as "OMG THIS BALLAD^2 RAWKZ," "THANKS DUDE THAT 1700 STEEL CYCLONE ON TIAMAT WAS ALL YOU MAN, COULDN"T HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT THAT MINUET OR ETUDE" ('-'*)

err... maybe not

Cool so your argument comes down to having players who hate their job in your LS as to why nin is better.

People come on the job they are needed on, I heard being in a LS is like being part of a team, and when your coach tells you what position to play, you play it. Sorry if nobody listens to the leaders in your LS and your bards are on strike.

[Elcura]

Of all you Lv75 bards out there wants to play it at events? Ever happen to complain to your LS leader to allow you play a job you like? Ever log off or not log on because you don't feel like playing the role of minstrel bitch for the umpteenth time?

What? You'd rather nuke or pound the living shit out of something? No wait, you're the guy who gets such wonderful kudos as "OMG THIS BALLAD^2 RAWKZ," "THANKS DUDE THAT 1700 STEEL CYCLONE ON TIAMAT WAS ALL YOU MAN, COULDN"T HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT THAT MINUET OR ETUDE" ('-'*)

err... maybe not

There's at least 2 BRDs in BG that are pretty much BRD main. Daahan's a DRG 75 and BRD 75, GUESS WHAT JOB HE'D BE COMING AS?!

If your BRDs don't want to even log on cause of being a BRD, then they'd probably wouldn't log on even if they had an uber-so-called fun job

[Daahan]

Of all you Lv75 bards out there wants to play it at events? Ever happen to complain to your LS leader to allow you play a job you like? Ever log off or not log on because you don't feel like playing the role of minstrel bitch for the umpteenth time?

What? You'd rather nuke or pound the living shit out of something? No wait, you're the guy who gets such wonderful kudos as "OMG THIS BALLAD^2 RAWKZ," "THANKS DUDE THAT 1700 STEEL CYCLONE ON TIAMAT WAS ALL YOU MAN, COULDN"T HAVE DONE IT WITHOUT THAT MINUET OR ETUDE" ('-'*)

err... maybe not

This whole game revolves around the fact that WHEN JOBS ARE PUT TOGETHER THEY WORK BETTER. Lets do a little math here.

3 Paladins/Ninjas = useful
1 RDM = useful job
2 Bards = Useful jobs.

Now, when you add them together, you get RDM, BRD, BRD, PLD, PLD, PLD aka, EXTREMELY USEFUL TANKING PARTY FOR MANY HNMS.

I hate it when people say something like "oh well if you didn't have that bard with you, you would have not been able to do it."

THE FUCKING POINT OF THE GAME IS TO HAVE THE OTHER JOB WITH YOU SO YOU CAN DO BETTER.

Unlike most bards, I enjoy the job because I know I allow the other people to perform better, that's the point of the job. The same argument can be used for any other job.

[Demetrios]

No? I responded to:

Also you forgot at 2006 pld can wear homam haste+12% and fast cast trait plus can get fast cast earring = fast cast II as pld/nin
can spam utsi + faster flash and already you got marchx2 and haste ...
pld/nin with good support own nin/war anytime

...on how to make a PLD/NIN PT functional. The above poster said haste gear and march was a virtue of the job combination, but it would leave you with only one source of regen if you went with his 1 RDM + 1 BRD (2x march) combo. For a 23 sec recast on Utsusemi Ni / Flash setup, it would be impractical for my LS, yes. I don't think you'd use March 2x if you had one BRD.

[Xavier]

No? I responded to:

Also you forgot at 2006 pld can wear homam haste+12% and fast cast trait plus can get fast cast earring = fast cast II as pld/nin
can spam utsi + faster flash and already you got marchx2 and haste ...
pld/nin with good support own nin/war anytime

...on how to make a PLD/NIN PT functional. The above poster said haste gear and march was a virtue of the job combination, but it would leave you with only one source of regen if you went with his 1 RDM + 1 BRD (2x march) combo. For a 23 sec recast on Utsusemi Ni / Flash setup, it would be impractical for my LS, yes. I don't think you'd use March 2x if you had one BRD.

Your argument is based on a linkshell not having enough people, which seems 1) highly unlikely if you're out killing Jailers/Tiamat/Ouryu etc, or 2) the BRDs hate their jobs in your LS.

Either way, you're basically saying pld/nin sucks because your LS isn't capable of doing it.

[Demetrios]

NINs and PLD/WAR seem to be less maintenance than PLD/NINs if you really need two BRDs in order to shine. For me at least, it's more likely to see two WHMs online than four BRDs. A dual NIN setup is more versatile as you're not reliant on three (in your case PLD/NINs) to four (2 for tank PT, 2 for the other 2 PTs) of the same job logging on at an event.

In order for a NIN or PLD/WAR PT to be functional at HNMs in my LS you need the following:

really hard shit we use NINs for: NIN NIN WHM WHM RDM BRD
Bahamut #2, Tiamat, Prudence, Omega, Ultima, etc

really hard shit we use PLD/WARs for: PLD PLD WHM WHM RDM BRD
Ouryu, Jormungand, Vrtra, JoL, etc.

everything else: doesn't really matter either way

[Xavier]

You're missing the point that you're completely discrediting a job because you don't have the right setup for it.

Saying you don't have enough bards so pld/nin sucks is pretty narrowminded thinking. I'm sorry if your LS doesn't have enough people with flexible jobs to try different setups, and I never said pld/nin wasn't higher maintenance, I said it was better.

And, honestly, if high maintenance is having 1 more bard at an event, theres something else going on besides the party setup.

[Demetrios]

Being higher maintenance makes the combination worse if everything in this game can be done just as well with less reliance 3 - 4 individuals of a specific job. I'd rather get things done as much as possible than cancel Tiamat, JoL, Ouryu, or Bahamut because BRD #4 and PLD #3 had to cram for an exam.

In a dual NIN or PLD/WAR setup you're reliant on 2 WHM and 2 NINs (or 2 PLD/WARs) 1 BRD and 1 RDM logging on, in the other you need 3 PLDs and 2 BRDs and 1 RDM if you're just speaking in terms of the tank PT. I'm assuming you're also bringing WHMs to events as well unless everyone just really likes R1 or 150,000G reraise hairpens, so that just adds more people that you *need* in order for things to go smoothly.

[Xavier]

Being higher maintenance makes the combination worse if everything in this game can be done just as well with less reliance 3 - 4 individuals of a specific job. I'd rather get things done as much as possible than cancel Tiamat, JoL, Ouryu, or Bahamut because BRD #4 and PLD #3 had to cram for an exam.

In a dual NIN or PLD/WAR setup you're reliant on 2 WHM and 2 NINs (or 2 PLD/WARs) 1 BRD and 1 RDM logging on, in the other you need 3 PLDs and 2 BRDs and 1 RDM if you're just speaking in terms of the tank PT. I'm assuming you're also bringing WHMs to events as well unless everyone just really likes R1 or 150,000G reraise hairpens, so that just adds more people that you *need* in order for things to go smoothly.

Wow, so dense. I said it was better, as in, it holds more hate, which is the role of a tank. I never said using nin when you have less people was bad, I just said its not as strong all things being equal. And no, nin doesn't do it just as well, it does it well enough to get the job done, theres a difference.

So really, I'm saying that with 1 more brd, pld/nin holds hate far better than nin/war, and you're saying pld/nin can't hold hate because its impossible to have another bard. Pld/war is stupid because you're relying on AA for shadows (I assume), whereas pld/nin makes each tank responsible for his own.

You're really just arguing that because your LS isn't flexible, something is worse. And no, we only really bring 1 whm to most events, but thats because nobody ever really dies in a pld/nin setup.

I'd rather get things done as much as possible than cancel Tiamat, JoL, Ouryu, or Bahamut because BRD #4 and PLD #3 had to cram for an exam.

Does your LS really only have about 18 people? Because last I heard, the game allowed people to have more than 1 75 job. Again, your lack of flexibility has no merit in a conversation about which holds hate better.

I guess being in an LS where nearly every person has 2-3 75 jobs and multiple people have 5+ 75 jobs is a new concept to you.

[Demetrios]

Let's take a case in point of using a PLD/NIN PLD/NIN PLD/NIN BRD BRD RDM setup.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are dependent on a large number of buffs being on at one time: double ballad, double march, refresh, haste, protect, shell, food, and maybe a barspell from the BRD or RDM/WHM i'm assuming.) Bahamut likes to spam a job ability called Horrible Roar, which not as bad as Horrid Roar in the sense of hate reset, but it has a large range and is an AOE does dispel of 4-5 buffs at once. He also has Dispelga, but uses it far less at about the same rate as Silencga/graviga.

Shell 4 is an absolute necessity for Gigaflare, so your RDM is going to be hard pressed to keep that up on all of the PLDs at once while reapplying Refresh and Haste that are also constantly dispelled on three PLDs.

Bahamut has several AOE knockback moves which makes singing BRD songs very difficult without being interrupted.

Lastly, he has an close proximity AOE petrify move that can of course only be removed with Stona, so you need a WHM.

NIN can survive with the bare minimum of Shell 4 and Haste. PLD/NIN on the other hand, requires at least ballad 2x, refresh, shell4, haste, and march.

[Xavier]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you are dependent on a large number of buffs being on at one time: double ballad, double march, refresh, haste, protect, shell, food, and maybe a barspell from the BRD or RDM/WHM i'm assuming.) Bahamut likes to spam a job ability called Horrible Roar, which not as bad as Horrid Roar in the sense of hate reset, but it has a large range and is an AOE does dispel of 4-5 buffs at once. He also has Dispelga, but uses it far less at about the same rate as Silencga/graviga.

Shell 4 is an absolute necessity for Gigaflare, so your RDM is going to be hard pressed to keep that up on all of the PLDs at once while reapplying Refresh and Haste that are also constantly dispelled on three PLDs.

Bahamut has several AOE knockback moves which makes singing BRD songs very difficult without being interrupted.

Lastly, he has an close proximity AOE petrify move that can of course only be removed with Stona, so you need a WHM.

NIN can survive with the bare minimum of Shell 4 and Haste. PLD/NIN on the other hand, requires at least ballad 2x, refresh, shell4, haste, and march.

I heard that when all the buffs get removed, a pld automatically explodes and falls to the ground

Never said there wasn't a whm involved in the alliance, but outside of bar spells, I heard whm can do everything from another party/outside the alliance so w/e.

I rarely bother with food, don't need the extra enmity, don't need the extra defense/hp because you're not getting hit. Protect is nice, but again, if you're not getting hit, you can live without it. 2x ballad/refresh is important, but only if you're actually using the mp to spam cures, which you don't have to in rougher situations to hold hate. Again, all you're saying is its too hard for people to play their jobs (bards singing, rdms buffing) for something to work. But hey, I never argued that throwing nins at hnms wasn't an easier route to go.

[Orfeo]

So in one fight NIN/WAR>PLD/NIN.

You win.

[Demetrios]

It's not the BRD's skill in question, it's Bahamut's JAs which make the job hard. Bahamut quite literally spams Implosion (AOE stone), AOE terror, Sweeping flail (knockback), Touchdown, and Gigaflare. All of these make singing BRD songs that don't even last their full duration due to AOE dispels hard.

If you're down to zero buffs as a PLD/NIN or a NIN, you're going to get hit for about the same damage if you're defense and -% damage orientated.

Bahamut's TP (ex Gigalare is AOE 1000+ damage, and Implosion is AOE 400 damage) moves deal damage through blink, and others absorb 2-3 shadows (AOE terror, sweeping flail) so you are going to be spamming cures.

The RDM's skill isn't in question. I can't imagine having to reapply refresh 6 people and haste another 4 that is constantly being dispelled. Add to this Shell 4, and you're going to be pretty dry on MP. Not to mention that even with 340+ enfeebling magic bahamut will resist your slows/dispels over 50% of the time. Elegy and Finale resist rates are about the same if not worse due to lower singing skill.

It's not that the RDM, PLD, BRD skill that sucks, it's that SquareEnix added a monster that leaves the tank PT at a bare minimum of buffs for the majority of the fight, even if they are reapplied.