Quick question. MNK- Shura Togi/Osode

[aurik]

SH+1 > Osode for countering, since SH gives more accuracy, and that's the only stat that counter relies upon.

When you take physical damage, you have counterstance up, making all defensive measures fairly irrelevant. Instead of tanking in osode, use SH+1 and swap to arhat +1 at zero shadows if you are that scared.

Also, here's why you hardly ever eat a raw EES: you have to burn 6 shadows on a ranger mob before he uses EES and then still have hate. Ranger mobs generally don't even take 6 swings in the limbus/dynamis/whathaveyou, let alone go 3 seconds without a warrior rampaging their face and taking hate off you.

[NynJa]

Any WS that goes through shadows is not a physical WS, and therefor is unable to register as a crit. WS's that are not physical but go through shadows have fixed damage calculations (Throat Stab for example), and still will never register as a crit.


I'm aware that you cant counter without shadows up, but it gives you that insurance when you're putting Utsu:Ichi up, since you will most likely counter that attack, thus not interrupting you.

[aurik]

CritTaken is not moot even when utsu is up, some moves go through shadows, and in between shadows, especially if you have counterstance up, any crit- or damage reduction is welcome.

If you are tanking anything hard enough, and possibly with double attacks or aoe moves and spells that can take up all your 3 shadows, you can't rely on utsu2 alone, and while casting utsu1 you will get attacked while casting. If you fail to evade and counter, which is going to happen again if you are fighting something hard enough, guard reduces dmg and also gives you a higher chance of not being interrupted.

CritTaken is not moot, but it's overshadowed by 7 evasion / 7 accuracy.
I think you overstate the impact +10agi has on guard activation rate.
Same with +10mnd on resist rate.

[genome]

Well critTaken is just a separate stat from evasion and accuracy. Neither of those will impact or reduce chance of damage being critical once a hit already went through evasion and counter check. Of course they will help a bit on chance of evasion and counter. It might depend on my gear and the mobs i fight, but as I said I thought evasion skill+10 (mst.cst.mitts) or evasion+10 (rs.tekko) would have higher overall impact compared to agi+15 (seiryu's kote), but over and over agi+15 seemed to help me more and be better. Maybe there's some caps on evasion or something, don't know. But anyways evasion is easy to get as monk in all kinds of slots.

Also even looking at taku's test sample, some stat in osode increases the counter rate by a couple percents, more significantly than sushi or the extra 5 acc given by togi.

Plus again just the dex in osode for critical hits has helped me solo countless times just by interrupting nasty aga spells etc.

[aurik]

Also even looking at taku's test sample, some stat in osode increases the counter rate by a couple percents, more significantly than sushi or the extra 5 acc given by togi.

Plus again just the dex in osode for critical hits has helped me solo countless times just by interrupting nasty aga spells etc.

Dex in osode is like...1% additional crit hit rate. Versus +7 accuracy which adds over 1% actual connect rate. You can't interrupt if you miss, whereas you can interrupt if you don't crit.

As for higher counter rate, I call random variance. Counter rate sample size is often a ton lower than attack sample size.

[genome]

The chance of interrupt is much higher on a critical hit though, so if i have to chose between 1% more accuracy rate or 1% more crit hit, especially for defensive purposes, personally i'll take the 1% crit hit rate.

The higher counter rate could be random variance like you said, although that's on 200+ mobs for each person and probably each mob was countered several times each, so not exactly a miniscule sample. Plus the chances of a random variance to be only in one direction on both monks with that test setup is still pretty low. Sample size is probably not much different than the tests that people believe in saying accuracy is the only stat that affects counterstance :wink:

[aurik]

Actually, sample size for counter rate in a typical KRT party is surprisingly low.
Here's a snippet from a party I was in on Saturday

Counter Rate
==========================
Aurik 296 / 651 (45.468510)
Brennon 269 / 453 (59.38189
Tavian 68 / 164 (41.463415)
==========================

327 mobs 43062 XP

43k xp and Brennon and I only took a *combined* 1100 samples, which is further split between 2 people, and then tainted by varying the mob type, the use of focus, food choices, blindness, etc.

In well-controlled tests you can alter agi by 40+ points, which should make any significant counter rate difference apparent much much quicker.

[Takeno]

You CAN counter with shadows up... if the mob is gonna hit you, you can counter, no matter if you have shadows up or not.

[aurik]

Banished to alla card.

[genome]

You CAN counter with shadows up... if the mob is gonna hit you, you can counter, no matter if you have shadows up or not.

I wish unfortunately you can't. You can parry with shadows up, darn ninjas, it makes no sense and it's unfair, but you can't counter and you can't guard...

Aurik I agree it's hard to control all variables, but it's easier to discount some of the variability from focus etc in tests where you are comparing the same monk with only difference being acc-5 vs +10 on all stats.
Your numbers are also very similar, 45% (with some counter merits) and 41% (without), so that already seems pretty consistent and makes me believe both results a lot more. Still if you do more tests it would definitely be really cool to also compare maybe AGI and DEX and see if they have an impact on counters, like you said shapping gear just for that purpose to create the largest difference (stumbling boots etc )

[nivlakian]

You CAN counter with shadows up... if the mob is gonna hit you, you can counter, no matter if you have shadows up or not.

I hope this was sarcasm.

[Russta]

You CAN counter with shadows up... if the mob is gonna hit you, you can counter, no matter if you have shadows up or not.

This post epitomizes the entire thread for me.

Carry on.

[Lockecole]

You CAN counter with shadows up... if the mob is gonna hit you, you can counter, no matter if you have shadows up or not.

I wish unfortunately you can't. You can parry with shadows up, darn ninjas, it makes no sense and it's unfair, but you can't counter and you can't guard...

Yes, because everyone wants to guard a hit and take damage instead of simply lose a shadow. I know what you mean though, it makes sense though if you think about it. You can't counter if you evade a hit, so you obviously can't counter if it hits a shadow. I believe activation rate goes in this order.

Evade > Parry > Shadow > Counter > Guard/Shield > Get hit

[genome]

You CAN counter with shadows up... if the mob is gonna hit you, you can counter, no matter if you have shadows up or not.

I wish unfortunately you can't. You can parry with shadows up, darn ninjas, it makes no sense and it's unfair, but you can't counter and you can't guard...

Yes, because everyone wants to guard a hit and take damage instead of simply lose a shadow. I know what you mean though, it makes sense though if you think about it. You can't counter if you evade a hit, so you obviously can't counter if it hits a shadow. I believe activation rate goes in this order.

Evade > Parry > Shadow > Counter > Guard/Shield > Get hit

I agree it makes sense, what I was saying that doesn't make sense is that NINs are lucky and get to parry :wink: I mean if the shadow is there, for the same logic of the no counter, you shouldn't be able to parry either. This is another reason why it's easier to skill up parry than guard, you can do it on ITs with the protection of shadows.

[Eternus]

You can't parry with your fists.....

[aurik]

Nobody said monks could parry with their fists. Pay attention.

[freja]

You CAN counter with shadows up... if the mob is gonna hit you, you can counter, no matter if you have shadows up or not.

I wish things in this game came true just because I say so.

[genome]

You can't parry with your fists.....

you sure can't. h2h only has guard, katanas staff etc has parry. Hope that clears it up for you lol.

[Eternus]

He said luck... there is no luck involved with a NIN or any job using a weapon that is able to parry... It isn't like I can't kick when I have a sword in my hand irl... but you can't parry attacks in reality with your fists. There is no luck involved.

[Lockecole]

He said luck... there is no luck involved with a NIN or any job using a weapon that is able to parry... It isn't like I can't kick when I have a sword in my hand irl... but you can't parry attacks in reality with your fists. There is no luck involved.

Is he replying in the wrong topic or something? Wtf does that have to do with anything? (and yes it's possible to "parry" a hit in real life.)