AV on Titan (OFN)

[Xavier]

It's rather ironic that you say "it's no way to operate a linkshell" when they are 1 of 3 groups to take down AV, while half of your own LS quit for WoW. Maybe that's a bit of a cheap shot, but there's this lack of credibility when you're saying "there's a better solution to the loot distribution problem" while standing over the wreckage of a guild that was the first NA megapower in the multiverse.

I don't see how comparing my view on loot distribution has any relation to people quitting a game because it sucks, but ok.

And if you disagree, you're free to not join and go do your own thing with like-minded people. In which case, who are you to criticize?

And if you disagree with me, you're free to not respond. That kind of argument is bullshit. I think I was given my right to criticize and comment the day I was born in America. Freedom of speech, something like that.

And the argument is that the earring is worthless on whm, which you haven't argued against. All you've said is that someday it won't be worthless, which doesn't change my statement at all that its presently worthless.

[Brennon]

since ya'll are talking about the whm again, i wanted to add my thoughts real quick as well.

i don't have a problem with their point distribution system, really... its not one i personally prefer but if THEY prefer it that their buisness. the problem i have is with the douchebag of a whm who uses that system to take something that is that rare, and pretty much useless to him. that speaks volumes of douchebaggery, to me.

[aurik]

It's rather ironic that you say "it's no way to operate a linkshell" when they are 1 of 3 groups to take down AV, while half of your own LS quit for WoW. Maybe that's a bit of a cheap shot, but there's this lack of credibility when you're saying "there's a better solution to the loot distribution problem" while standing over the wreckage of a guild that was the first NA megapower in the multiverse.

I don't see how comparing my view on loot distribution has any relation to people quitting a game because it sucks, but ok.

Obviously SeaShell is rampantly successful with their point system, while BG has declined from their previous stature a fair amount. And your definition of progress seems to be largely around the acquisition of items. So we could say, according to your metrics, SeaShell is making progress with a points system, while BG is but a shadow of its former glory with its divine appointment system.

Don't you see the huge credibility issue here?

[Xavier]

It's rather ironic that you say "it's no way to operate a linkshell" when they are 1 of 3 groups to take down AV, while half of your own LS quit for WoW. Maybe that's a bit of a cheap shot, but there's this lack of credibility when you're saying "there's a better solution to the loot distribution problem" while standing over the wreckage of a guild that was the first NA megapower in the multiverse.

I don't see how comparing my view on loot distribution has any relation to people quitting a game because it sucks, but ok.

Obviously SeaShell is rampantly successful with their point system, while BG has declined from their previous stature a fair amount. And your definition of progress seems to be largely around the acquisition of items. So we could say, according to your metrics, SeaShell is making progress with a points system, while BG is but a shadow of its former glory with its divine appointment system.

Don't you see the huge credibility issue here?

How is it relevant? Nobody quit because they were pissed off someone got an item over someone else. They quit because they found a better game. If you can explain how a divine loot system influenced people quitting, maybe you have a point.

As it stands now, you're using an unrelated circumstance to make a point, which isn't a very good, or valid argument. Weaksauce.

And my definition of progress is effiency. Items is just one way to do it, not the only way.

[aurik]

since ya'll are talking about the whm again, i wanted to add my thoughts real quick as well.

i don't have a problem with their point distribution system, really... its not one i personally prefer but if THEY prefer it that their buisness. the problem i have is with the douchebag of a whm who uses that system to take something that is that rare, and pretty much useless to him. that speaks volumes of douchebaggery, to me.

I would agree, if it wasn't the whm's intention to put the earring to use on their blm. In which case, the problem isn't the point system but rather the recruitment and tolerance of douchebags in the shell.

However, the whm is levelling blm, so why is it a big deal that their blm isn't 75 yet? I mean, they're even being gracious enough to lend it out since they aren't using it yet. If it were me, that would never leave my inventory for fear of theft.

[Not Kuno]

It's rather ironic that you say "it's no way to operate a linkshell" when they are 1 of 3 groups to take down AV, while half of your own LS quit for WoW. Maybe that's a bit of a cheap shot, but there's this lack of credibility when you're saying "there's a better solution to the loot distribution problem" while standing over the wreckage of a guild that was the first NA megapower in the multiverse.

I don't see how comparing my view on loot distribution has any relation to people quitting a game because it sucks, but ok.

Obviously SeaShell is rampantly successful with their point system, while BG has declined from their previous stature a fair amount. And your definition of progress seems to be largely around the acquisition of items. So we could say, according to your metrics, SeaShell is making progress with a points system, while BG is but a shadow of its former glory with its divine appointment system.

Don't you see the huge credibility issue here?

The way you say that makes it sound like the people who got screwed out of items left BG (and FFXI). It wasn't that way at all so I don't really see your point. The people that left were some of the best equipped (see you again: a bodyx2, mbodyx2, excalibur, ebody, ridill etc).

[Brennon]

since ya'll are talking about the whm again, i wanted to add my thoughts real quick as well.

i don't have a problem with their point distribution system, really... its not one i personally prefer but if THEY prefer it that their buisness. the problem i have is with the douchebag of a whm who uses that system to take something that is that rare, and pretty much useless to him. that speaks volumes of douchebaggery, to me.

I would agree, if it wasn't the whm's intention to put the earring to use on their blm. In which case, the problem isn't the point system but rather the recruitment and tolerance of douchebags in the shell.

However, the whm is levelling blm, so why is it a big deal that their blm isn't 75 yet? I mean, they're even being gracious enough to lend it out since they aren't using it yet. If it were me, that would never leave my inventory for fear of theft.

I could say that I intended to level warrior someday, but no shell on any server in their right minds would let me lot a ridill until i actually *did*

[aurik]

It's rather ironic that you say "it's no way to operate a linkshell" when they are 1 of 3 groups to take down AV, while half of your own LS quit for WoW. Maybe that's a bit of a cheap shot, but there's this lack of credibility when you're saying "there's a better solution to the loot distribution problem" while standing over the wreckage of a guild that was the first NA megapower in the multiverse.

I don't see how comparing my view on loot distribution has any relation to people quitting a game because it sucks, but ok.

Obviously SeaShell is rampantly successful with their point system, while BG has declined from their previous stature a fair amount. And your definition of progress seems to be largely around the acquisition of items. So we could say, according to your metrics, SeaShell is making progress with a points system, while BG is but a shadow of its former glory with its divine appointment system.

Don't you see the huge credibility issue here?

How is it relevant? Nobody quit because they were pissed off someone got an item over someone else. They quit because they found a better game. If you can explain how a divine loot system influenced people quitting, maybe you have a point.

As it stands now, you're using an unrelated circumstance to make a point, which isn't a very good, or valid argument. Weaksauce.

In point-system shells, people quitting the game / quitting the LS by definition of the point system doesn't materially diminish the shell. They put in the time, they earned what they got. In a divine system, or shared-ownership system, someone always gets burned when the membership changes.

Excalibur? Quicklet's DH+1? Your ex-members coming back to RMT their shell-owned gear? Jacking that one dude's stuff because he whored a ridill and quit the game and then came back? I'm no expert on BG history, but to say that your divine system hasn't generated its share of drama...

Loot distribution is a huge driving factor for a large majority of drama and politicking in most "divine appointment" shells. Maybe you think that it played absolutely no role in BG's fall from the top, but I'd say that's pretty naive.

[Xavier]

Maybe you think that it played absolutely no role in BG's fall from the top, but I'd say that's pretty naive.

And you're stretching to make a point when you don't know the details.

[aurik]

since ya'll are talking about the whm again, i wanted to add my thoughts real quick as well.

i don't have a problem with their point distribution system, really... its not one i personally prefer but if THEY prefer it that their buisness. the problem i have is with the douchebag of a whm who uses that system to take something that is that rare, and pretty much useless to him. that speaks volumes of douchebaggery, to me.

I would agree, if it wasn't the whm's intention to put the earring to use on their blm. In which case, the problem isn't the point system but rather the recruitment and tolerance of douchebags in the shell.

However, the whm is levelling blm, so why is it a big deal that their blm isn't 75 yet? I mean, they're even being gracious enough to lend it out since they aren't using it yet. If it were me, that would never leave my inventory for fear of theft.

I could say that I intended to level warrior someday, but no shell on any server in their right minds would let me lot a ridill until i actually *did*

And what if your warrior was 60+ and levelling hard? At what point to you earn the right to lot a ridill over a fresh meat recruit?

[aurik]

Ninja editing going on <_< I ninja-deleted my post to respond to your additional text, but it's gone now.

Anyway, it's been a fun debate with you as ever Xavier. You never fail to provide a good opposing perspective.

[Xavier]

Maybe you think that it played absolutely no role in BG's fall from the top, but I'd say that's pretty naive.

And you're stretching to make a point when you don't know the details.

All I'm saying is that from where I'm sitting, you seem to be lacking credibility.

I don't know how you think a "divine" system works, but its based on effort all the same. It doesn't put it into points, because points are gay. They don't take into effect the present, and put too much emphesis on the past.

Someone could be fucking off for 2 weeks on a point system, come back with a surplus, and lot the best item in the game. That was what we wanted to avoid.

And you're making broad generalizations that because people quit, its a result of a loot system. People can steal under any system. Do you really think people don't equally play a point system, take what they want, and then stop coming to events?

The generalization that because people quit a linkshell I was in that I'm no longer allowed to have an opinion on lotting gear that has no use for a job is just as naive isn't it?

[Xavier]

Ninja editing going on <_< I ninja-deleted my post to respond to your additional text, but it's gone now.

I'm a horrible ninja editer. I type exactly whats on my mind and rush to post, then realize I have more on my mind to say about the subject

[aurik]

Maybe you think that it played absolutely no role in BG's fall from the top, but I'd say that's pretty naive.

And you're stretching to make a point when you don't know the details.

All I'm saying is that from where I'm sitting, you seem to be lacking credibility.

I don't know how you think a "divine" system works, but its based on effort all the same. It doesn't put it into points, because points are gay. They don't take into effect the present, and put too much emphesis on the past.

Someone could be fucking off for 2 weeks on a point system, come back with a surplus, and lot the best item in the game. That was what we wanted to avoid.

And you're making broad generalizations that because people quit, its a result of a loot system. People can steal under any system. Do you really think people don't equally play a point system, take what they want, and then stop coming to events?

The generalization that because people quit a linkshell I was in that I'm no longer allowed to have an opinion on lotting gear that has no use for a job is just as naive isn't it?

All I'm saying is that from where I'm sitting, you seem to be lacking credibility.

Sure, I'm missing a lot of information; all I have to go on, really, is the not-so-infrequent bahamut drama that graces these boards. But if you were given all these blanks, would it be entirely unreasonable to fill them in with some loot drama?

Go ahead and make blanket criticisms about point systems, but at the end of the day, it's their choice to make, and they seem to be flourishing under it.

[Xavier]

Go ahead and make blanket criticisms about point systems, but at the end of the day, it's their choice to make, and they seem to be flourishing under it.

I never said how they should operate. I said I didn't like how they did it, which became my right when their system was posted in public. I didn't tell them it was wrong, just that I didn't agree with not prioritizing gear to jobs.

And you still haven't told me how my opinion that the item is worthless on a whm right now when the LS has blms is wrong.

Its a double standard for you to tell me I'm not allowed to post my opinion (or at least, that my opinion is somehow invalid by default) on something while you are in fact stating your own opinion on it (agreeing with it).

[Stilgar]

Someone could be fucking off for 2 weeks on a point system, come back with a surplus, and lot the best item in the game. That was what we wanted to avoid.

Does this mean that work you put in up to the time 2 weeks ago when you went on vacation or w/e loses it's value? That doesn't seem right.

[aurik]

Go ahead and make blanket criticisms about point systems, but at the end of the day, it's their choice to make, and they seem to be flourishing under it.

I never said how they should operate. I said I didn't like how they did it, which became my right when their system was posted in public. I didn't tell them it was wrong, just that I didn't agree with not prioritizing gear to jobs.

And you still haven't told me how my opinion that the item is worthless on a whm right now when the LS has blms is wrong.

Its a double standard for you to tell me I'm not allowed to post my opinion on something while you are in fact stating your own opinion on it (agreeing with it).

Obviously you can't have a "wrong opinion", but I'll disgree with your opinion that it's wrong. It's right; the whm earned the right to lot it. The whm chose to spend their points on it, something that the rules of the system under which they worked explicitly allowed. It's what the system is explicitly designed for, and apparently it works.

Point systems aren't perfect, no, I'll agree with you there. Their greatest downfall is when you let assholes to participate, they earn points, and then they use their points punatively against other people instead of constructive for themselves. But it's not like assholes don't make a mess of divine appointment systems too, stirring up needless drama, politicking, *cough*secretly botting*cough*.

Furthermore, the earring's not worthless right now, they're lending it out to friends to use...though that's certainly not required. The fact that they honestly intend to make good use of it is enough for me.

And, finally, I'm not telling you that you can't post your opinion, just that it's kinda like a man driving a beat-up car offering you stock advice. I certainly wouldn't take that advice without a grain of salt.

[Xavier]

WELL THEN HOW BOUT THIS UR BANNED FOR DISAGREEING WITH ME AND YOU SMELL FUNNY

[Xavier]

Someone could be fucking off for 2 weeks on a point system, come back with a surplus, and lot the best item in the game. That was what we wanted to avoid.

Does this mean that work you put in up to the time 2 weeks ago when you went on vacation or w/e loses it's value? That doesn't seem right.

2 weeks wasn't enough time, add in 2 months, anything like that. I don't like straight point systems because it lets old players accumulate a large amount of points, and then gives them ample amount of time to slack off. It doesn't always take into account how active a person is in the present, and puts a lot of weight of them in the past. Replace 2 weeks with a longer time if you want.

[aurik]

Someone could be fucking off for 2 weeks on a point system, come back with a surplus, and lot the best item in the game. That was what we wanted to avoid.

Does this mean that work you put in up to the time 2 weeks ago when you went on vacation or w/e loses it's value? That doesn't seem right.

2 weeks wasn't enough time, add in 2 months, anything like that. I don't like straight point systems because it lets old players accumulate a large amount of points, and then gives them ample amount of time to slack off. It doesn't always take into account how active a person is in the present, and puts a lot of weight of them in the past. Replace 2 weeks with a longer time if you want.

Yea, those are definitely issues. You could legislate solutions to these kinds of problems:
- for every week you're away, you have to spend an increased amount of points for stuff when you come back for a short time.
- the amount of points you accumulate caps, or teirs-out, and the expenditure of points is relative to your point total (aka anyone with 100+ points can lot ridill, and whoever wins spends 90% of their points on it, whereas for andvaranauts it's 1 point flat, whoever has most gets first lot)

The thing is, at some point, tracking all these things gets to be more work than fun, and you start realizing that instead of working with your mates you're competing with them for the right to lot. In these cases, divine appointment can be less burdensome.