look at this from maxx to me

[Banigaru]

Condemnatowned

[Sekkite]

.875, eh? According to the list you just posted, which is the first JP site I've ever heard of who has found the modifiers for guillotine, it says that each guillotine swing does less then a normal scythe swing. I find that to be bullshit.

I go by what I can observe in the game first followed by what others observe second. I observe that large amounts of +attack make a substantial improvement on guillotine damage up to a point(I.E. the damage per swing cap on two handed weapons). I can macro in all my +STR gear and notice little to no consistent increase in guillotine damage.

[Maxxthepenguin]

.875, eh? According to the list you just posted, which is the first JP site I've ever heard of who has found the modifiers for guillotine, it says that each guillotine swing does less then a normal scythe swing. I find that to be bullshit.

I go by what I can observe in the game first followed by what others observe second. I observe that large amounts of +attack make a substantial improvement on guillotine damage up to a point(I.E. the damage per swing cap on two handed weapons). I can macro in all my +STR gear and notice little to no consistent increase in guillotine damage.

Ditto here on going by what I observe (in case it wasn't abundantly clear.)

Obviously damage is going to be higher than .875*4*Normal Swing because of the modifiers, but that data seems in line with my experiences.

And FYI, any time you post a modifier, its most likely coming from that site, I've never heard of another site actually doing the research to get the exact numbers. Usually you find a link to that site, or a link to another site which links to that site.

As for you macroing all your str gear: well are you macroing in spike necklace? Seriously though, I've noticed that past 50 or so additional STR it isn't helping my SHs, SSs, and GSs much and INT does a lot more at that point.

[Ohemgee]

.875, eh? According to the list you just posted, which is the first JP site I've ever heard of who has found the modifiers for guillotine, it says that each guillotine swing does less then a normal scythe swing. I find that to be bullshit.

I go by what I can observe in the game first followed by what others observe second. I observe that large amounts of +attack make a substantial improvement on guillotine damage up to a point(I.E. the damage per swing cap on two handed weapons). I can macro in all my +STR gear and notice little to no consistent increase in guillotine damage.

Ditto here on going by what I observe (in case it wasn't abundantly clear.)

Obviously damage is going to be higher than .875*4*Normal Swing because of the modifiers, but that data seems in line with my experiences.

And FYI, any time you post a modifier, its most likely coming from that site, I've never heard of another site actually doing the research to get the exact numbers. Usually you find a link to that site, or a link to another site which links to that site.

As for you macroing all your str gear: well are you macroing in spike necklace? Seriously though, I've noticed that past 50 or so additional STR it isn't helping my SHs, SSs, and GSs much and INT does a lot more at that point.

Your DRK must suck ass

[Sekkite]

I macro in a WS gorget.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Your DRK must suck ass

No, its in line with my experiences because of the modifiers. Considering how much STR and MND an elvaan has, the .875 + mods makes sense.

I macro in a WS gorget.

The spike necklace comment was a joke

[Dezzimal]

Yay a site that shows that Blade:ku really isn't 1 random stat for every hit.

[Sekkite]

I notice a difference with macroing in WS gear for weapon skills in spinning slash and cross reaper. I don't notice much of a difference with guillotine. It never breaks the 800ish damage cap unless I get a double attack or use souleater. There is no other way it will get much more damage. No amount of available +STR or +MND will do it.

[Lordwafik]

2. DRK/WAR isn't a manasponge as long it times WSes, stuns, and drains right and the other party members realize that its not the same as a WAR/NIN. Also its not good for AoE spammers. But in places like Uleguerand Range, DRK/WAR is very very good damage and not dangerous. As long as there arent unavoidable AoEs and as long as you have, say, a combo of 2 WAR/NIN and NIN/WAR who provoke you shouldn't have issues with hate unless you act like an idiot. Patroclus Helm helps as well. I know you are just going to ignore this and say 'max sed it its rong' but its what I've experienced.

You've never main healed a DRK/WAR in places like Shrine and Ulegard have you?

They stick up their stupid -def JA's, and do a big burst WS, turns the mob due to the fact their JA's are big enmity moves, then lose HP for the WS itself (which is fucking unessesary, you lose HP to do less than a WAR's dmg), and then the demon looks at you and is like "Bye bye" and then uses Quadrastrike (4 hit demon WS that can 1 shot ANYONE). There's also Condemnation (big dmg + aoe, frontal move).

Give me a drk/nin anyday over a drk/war in WS pts. Im not taking someone up the mountain, who's going to be a burden on my party.

[aurik]

fTP is only calculated in the first hit of multihit WS.
I'm not sure whether or not stat mods are calculated in subsequent hits.

Rampage is a 0.5 modifier on the first hit. Fortunately the subsequent 4 hits and the offhand hit aren't halved as well.

[Krandor]

Wow I never actually knew that about multi-hit WSs Aurik.

[Maxxthepenguin]

I notice a difference with macroing in WS gear for weapon skills in spinning slash and cross reaper. I don't notice much of a difference with guillotine. It never breaks the 800ish damage cap unless I get a double attack or use souleater. There is no other way it will get much more damage. No amount of available +STR or +MND will do it.

...are you serious? I had an AVERAGE 800 damage for 16 TP return (w/ rajas) guillos last night in Uleguerand as DRK/WAR. I notice a difference on Guillos when I have MND- for sure, try it with adaman sollerets. I haven't really tested much MND+ honestly, but I'm going for AF+1 Feet next (have hands, head, and a black rivet.) So I guess we'll see what happens.

fTP is only calculated in the first hit of multihit WS.
I'm not sure whether or not stat mods are calculated in subsequent hits.

Rampage is a 0.5 modifier on the first hit. Fortunately the subsequent 4 hits and the offhand hit aren't halved as well.

I honestly never knew that, but TP doesnt affect Guillo anyways. Stat mods would have to be calculated in for subsequent hits though for rampages to be 1k+ as often as they can be.

You've never main healed a DRK/WAR in places like Shrine and Ulegard have you?

They stick up their stupid -def JA's, and do a big burst WS, turns the mob due to the fact their JA's are big enmity moves, then lose HP for the WS itself (which is fucking unessesary, you lose HP to do less than a WAR's dmg), and then the demon looks at you and is like "Bye bye" and then uses Quadrastrike (4 hit demon WS that can 1 shot ANYONE). There's also Condemnation (big dmg + aoe, frontal move).

Give me a drk/nin anyday over a drk/war in WS pts. Im not taking someone up the mountain, who's going to be a burden on my party.

As long as the WAR/NINs and NIN/WARs that are so plentiful actually provoke and you time guillo right and don't touch souleater you're fine and doing a ton of damage. Condemnation is easily avoidable. Also, not using last resort while on the mob's hate list helps. Patroclus helps as well.
I do admit I died last night, but they werent voking...even after I pulled hate. Just not used to it I guess...

[Lordwafik]

Wow I never actually knew that about multi-hit WSs Aurik.

e

[rahvin]

I notice a difference with macroing in WS gear for weapon skills in spinning slash and cross reaper. I don't notice much of a difference with guillotine. It never breaks the 800ish damage cap unless I get a double attack or use souleater. There is no other way it will get much more damage. No amount of available +STR or +MND will do it.

...are you serious? I had an AVERAGE 800 damage for 16 TP return (w/ rajas) guillos last night in Uleguerand as DRK/WAR. I notice a difference on Guillos when I have MND- for sure, try it with adaman sollerets. I haven't really tested much MND+ honestly, but I'm going for AF+1 Feet next (have hands, head, and a black rivet.) So I guess we'll see what happens.

fTP is only calculated in the first hit of multihit WS.
I'm not sure whether or not stat mods are calculated in subsequent hits.

Rampage is a 0.5 modifier on the first hit. Fortunately the subsequent 4 hits and the offhand hit aren't halved as well.

I honestly never knew that, but TP doesnt affect Guillo anyways. Stat mods would have to be calculated in for subsequent hits though for rampages to be 1k+ as often as they can be.

You've never main healed a DRK/WAR in places like Shrine and Ulegard have you?

They stick up their stupid -def JA's, and do a big burst WS, turns the mob due to the fact their JA's are big enmity moves, then lose HP for the WS itself (which is fucking unessesary, you lose HP to do less than a WAR's dmg), and then the demon looks at you and is like "Bye bye" and then uses Quadrastrike (4 hit demon WS that can 1 shot ANYONE). There's also Condemnation (big dmg + aoe, frontal move).

Give me a drk/nin anyday over a drk/war in WS pts. Im not taking someone up the mountain, who's going to be a burden on my party.

As long as the WAR/NINs and NIN/WARs that are so plentiful actually provoke and you time guillo right and don't touch souleater you're fine and doing a ton of damage. Condemnation is easily avoidable. Also, not using last resort while on the mob's hate list helps. Patroclus helps as well.
I do admit I died last night, but they werent voking...even after I pulled hate. Just not used to it I guess...

If i was playing with you and you pulled hate, i wouldnt voke and let you die also.

[Lordwafik]

As long as the WAR/NINs and NIN/WARs that are so plentiful actually provoke and you time guillo right and don't touch souleater you're fine and doing a ton of damage. Condemnation is easily avoidable. Also, not using last resort while on the mob's hate list helps. Patroclus helps as well.
I do admit I died last night, but they werent voking...even after I pulled hate. Just not used to it I guess...

I dont remember the last time I was in a burn party and anyone used provoke outside the initial hate or when it went to a mage, or when someone had low HP. Once again, burden.

[Maxxthepenguin]

As long as the WAR/NINs and NIN/WARs that are so plentiful actually provoke and you time guillo right and don't touch souleater you're fine and doing a ton of damage. Condemnation is easily avoidable. Also, not using last resort while on the mob's hate list helps. Patroclus helps as well.
I do admit I died last night, but they werent voking...even after I pulled hate. Just not used to it I guess...

I dont remember the last time I was in a burn party and anyone used provoke outside the initial hate or when it went to a mage, or when someone had low HP. Once again, burden.

...provoke is a burden? It doesn't slow the party down, its instant. Maybe you lose .75 seconds due to animation. Maybe. People don't do it in normal burn parties because its not helpful and can actually be harmful. But a DRK/WAR can fit in fine as long as you are willing to hit control+1.
Know what? Haste is a burden too. Dia? Well the effect is pretty small might as well not do it. It doesn't slow the party down, just requires the slightest bit more attention. Seriously, if pressing a macro every 30 seconds is so much of a burden I'm surprised people go through the burden of making parties.

[Remembrance]

As long as the WAR/NINs and NIN/WARs that are so plentiful actually provoke and you time guillo right and don't touch souleater you're fine and doing a ton of damage. Condemnation is easily avoidable. Also, not using last resort while on the mob's hate list helps. Patroclus helps as well.
I do admit I died last night, but they werent voking...even after I pulled hate. Just not used to it I guess...

I dont remember the last time I was in a burn party and anyone used provoke outside the initial hate or when it went to a mage, or when someone had low HP. Once again, burden.

Exactly, why do mnk pts work very well?

Aside from mob weakness, I thinks its becuase the job is pretty self sufficient, your pulling your OWN wieght, and other people dealing dmg don't have to worry about your ass. No matter what you pull down in KRT, the mnk can keep the hate off the mages, as well as take the damage that ensues. No mnk down in krt goes, "OMGOMG the other mnk has hate hes gonna die" becuase they aren't dragging wieght.

[Mifaco]

MNK is anything but self-sufficient.

I vowed to never WHM in KRT again; curing 3 MP sponges that require haste, blindna, paralyna, etc. is just too much for me. I especially hate the ones that put up Counterstance while blinded, or the ones who beg for Blindna (hint: blindna takes a fucking eternity to cast)

Then there's always the 400+ Hell Slash {NO THANKS}

[Remembrance]

=( I love krt and it will always be my preffered exp method.

I personally dont think it takes that much work from the whm though it is VERY fast paced..

I didn't mean self sufficient in the mage sense, becuase I do agree that without the whm, rdm and brd the mnks would surely die, but more like one monk doesn't have to 'baby' the other monks. At least not in my many many krt parties '3'

[Anyway]

Your missing where I never said the average DRK outdamages the average WAR. I try not to think of things in terms of X > Y, I try to define what X and Y actually are, see if they are comparable, and see what could be done to change it.

Maxx why even argue? According to you the only way a DRK outdamages a WAR is when the DRK has the best gear and the WAR is shit.

DRK's are a burden in burn parties. No utsusemi. Souleater fucks everything up. Getting too much hate from their retarded abilities, then proceeding to get pummelled due to their low defense.

I SEE NO POSITIVES