/PLD

[Kuponut]

Because one gimp pet class meant to be a melee just wasn't enough? I'm hoping PUP the pc is more mage-like, but I'd like the automaton to be able to do anything you want it to based on the parts used.

I was just hoping for it would be closer to BST than SMN is all...

And as far as I can tell, Puppetmaster doesn't even cast anything..

[DrObvious]

For partying : This has opened up a ton of new possibilities as BLM support healer. Now the blm is a healer with autorefresh, refresh from cloak/dalm , and also from a spell, which makes him like a RDM, in terms of MP being restored. Also highest clear mind. Also he can throw a flash AND a stun whenever it's needed, is better than any other job, the only other job who can do this is PLD/DRK or DRK/PLD, but they dont have the MP to waste on things like that (well maybe drk).

Curaga from /whm is still generally going to be better than 1mp/tick for support healing.

[Mysterio]

BST/PLD for solo play? seems enticing, somewhat.

[Nikko]

I dont understand why ppl have /rdm as default though, and only use /whm if there is a need (well i do, blm (ppl in general) are lazy).. shouldnt it be the other way around? /whm as default and only /rdm if there is a need?

however, overuse of /whm abilities + spells can often cause excess downtime (or lower efficiency in general), simply because your group is taking a hit on dmg output. That said, when you need fastcast just to be able to cast on a mob before it dies, you are deffinitely better off subbing whm, your dmg isnt the most important factor. (duh?)

for specific fights.. i disagree with some. IMO blm have good reason to sub rdm @ tiamat for fastcast stun and recast timers... and also because everyone exploits to get out of the aoe. Dynamis maybe... if you are real low on BLM and need to solo the statues, otherwise /whm for sure. Gods /whm, and for kirin sub shouldnt matter. Aspi + KB have reason for /rdm as well.

[Janice]

A whole lot of junk of /rdm vs. /whm

All I care about is if you have a blm party for anything, I hope you all die if every single last one of them is /rdm.

[Janice]

I think you guys must have an excess of mages, and a lack of melees that need to be free of ailments to function.

BLM: 22
BRD: 11
BST: 3
DRG: 2
DRK: 3
MNK: 5
NIN: 12
PLD: 9
RDM: 12
RNG: 12
SAM: 4
SMN: 12
THF: 6
WAR: 7
WHM: 15

We should like update this or something

[Not Kuno]

And the reason you might use blindna at tiamat is because of the antlion blind move. Melees do accidentally pop them or pull them for TP, and their conic(?) blind really fucking sucks if you're trying to TP up. Viruna is obvious; once again, just because YOU didn't get hit by it doesn't mean that one of your teammates didn't. So instead of subbing something where you're helpless in that situation with a tank of mana, sub something where you can be useful.

Again, we have smn instead of melee they can fix any of that easy while waiting between bps. I play smn alot to tiamat and I do it no problem. The problem here is at Tiamat I go /rdm when Im blm for 2 reasons:

Stun - Most important reason
Soloing/Duoing Eles, Bombs, maybe corses

It's alot harder to solo without Gravity, having faster recast on sleeps is nice, as well as nukes. Same for duoing it's just so much easier.

The thing that gets me, is you're saying "I don't need /whm" ... true, you could go as /smn or /pld or /nin and be virtually just as effective at DDing. But whm brings so much to the table, and rdm brings only fastcast. 1 second off your T4 spells and slightly shorter stun/drain/aspir timers.

Again, see reasons above. Blink/stoneskin/phalanx/gravity/all the bar spells etc. It's alot like whm except fast cast helps alot when spamming certain spells and has as much or better 'staying aliveness'. I guess we use blm for different things.

A whole lot of junk of /rdm vs. /whm

All I care about is if you have a blm party for anything, I hope you all die if every single last one of them is /rdm.

>_> Ususally the brd or rdm is /whm. Usually. <_<


As for that job list, yeah that's pretty old. The ratio is generally more or less the same though.

[bercus]

/rdm @ sky gods? Nothx. Poisona, Paralyna, Silena, etc etc all very important. Although sky gods are a joke nowadays, you could probably sub nin and tank and be fine.

Both is fine. Gods are so easy nowadays, Genbu goes down faster then you can spell "fag" So Paralyne, Silena, Poisona shouldnt be a issue.
We have usually 3-4 WHMs+ there and we YES can take care of that.
The only bad thing is Paralyze, Silence the PLD and you have enough time for Utsusemi ppl because Mages 99% dont need it cause they are out of Range anyway. And the Melees can wait the few seconds to get their Paralyna off.

/rdm in dynamis? No way. You typically have a bazillion melee who are getting cursed, blinded, paralyzed, poisoned, etc every other fight. Pull your weight, sub whm and help people out. Also, curaga is a lifesaver in dynamis...sure, you say, "just cure the /whm in your party"...why can't that be you?

Well if you lack on BRD/WHM SMN/WHM and WHM/whatever some BLM could go WHM yes, but i agree Kuno, what kinda WHMS and other status healers do you have in your LS? Arent they able to take care of that?
The only really bad thing is Breakga stuff and thats only cureable by WHM anyway. Paralyna can be spammed.... from SMN BRD and WHM no need for BLM.

/rdm in limbus? Same thing. Tons of melee, tons of status effects. Sub whm and pitch in. Both of the proto fights have crippling conic status effects; I particularly remember wiping to the apollyon proto because all the blms subbed rdm and we got fucked by ailments.

In Limbus the Bards and WHMs take care of status effects. even if we farm ect. When we go with a smaller group for farming we sometimes let one BLM go /WHM if no RDM/WHM or SMN/WHM present. Other then that /RDM, just cause of all the pluses.

/rdm for Tiamat/Jorm/Vrtra adds? Notrly. You want curaga/poisona/paralyna for Vrtra. You want blindna/viruna/etc for Tiamat. Erase/paralyna/etc for Jorm.

Well I agree here to you and Kuno, some things are better as /WHM some as /RDM, but again you should have the WHM take care of that hehe thats the reason you have WHMs for >.<

RDM>WHM for Stun/Dmg/Recast/Gravity
WHM>RDM if you NEED Erase, Paralyne, Silena

So total RDM SJ is in more things BETTER.

[Onizuka]

You'd think blm was a healer/support job from what some of you are saying.. I thought blm was a DD, i must be mistaken.

I don't think anybody likes being told what to /sub aslong as what they sub isen't retarded like drk/pld whm/mnk etc.

/sub what you want if a blm doesn't want to cure he doesn't have to cause last i checked my blm spell list i don't have any curing spells..

Now that being said i like subbing whm with blm.. lolz 8) I like support healing and taking care of some status ailments but thats me i like when other blm sub rdm cause 1-2 /whm is more than enough if that.

As kuno said(imo) If your whm cant do their job don't blame the blm for not going the extra mile to cover their gimpness..

Every mage subs whm except rdm & blm. So if SMN/BRD/WHM cant handle that stuff somethings wrong.. and even if they cant the rdm would have to sub whm before the blm..
Last i checked rdm was a support job.. So if you need more than 4/5 mages main whm or /whm maybe you should just get get more whm or just realize your ls sucks and quit. lolz j/k

People do what they want to do, i don't care if you make your ls blm's go /whm or they go /whm cause they want to it doesn't affect me and i don't see how some blm some where subbing rdm affects you.

If your just arguing the fact that /rdm is gimp(which i think is the state of this topic). Then i find it funny the only jobs saying so are anything but blms..

[Lockecole]

I dont understand why ppl have /rdm as default though, and only use /whm if there is a need (well i do, blm (ppl in general) are lazy).. shouldnt it be the other way around? /whm as default and only /rdm if there is a need?

Wins the thread. Basically it comes to this. A buncha frontline jobs who understand the debilitating nature of not Eraseing or -NAing status affects immediately, curing PT members when needed, waking parties up from sleep with curaga...and then there's BLMs who ignore all of these things because they'd rather nuke, rest, nuke, rest and act like all of the other mages should do something they apparently deem is impossible for them to do themselves.

Kinda funny coming from the one job that does the LEAST amount of actions out of any mage job. (RDM refresh order alone is 10 times what a BLM does, BRDs cast long spellcast songs; though I do agree BRD is probably #2 for -nas, but cant be counted on to paralyna a tank for example.) Stop trying to justify to yourself the choices you make. Yes /RDM is a good subjob for many instances, but to ignore the fact that most BLMs who sub it, sub it in order to get out of the responsibilities of subbing /WHM, is bullshit.

[Delekii]

I dont understand why ppl have /rdm as default though, and only use /whm if there is a need (well i do, blm (ppl in general) are lazy).. shouldnt it be the other way around? /whm as default and only /rdm if there is a need?

Wins the thread. Basically it comes to this. A buncha frontline jobs who understand the debilitating nature of not Eraseing or -NAing status affects immediately, curing PT members when needed, waking parties up from sleep with curaga...and then there's BLMs who ignore all of these things because they'd rather nuke, rest, nuke, rest and act like all of the other mages should do something they apparently deem is impossible for them to do themselves.

Kinda funny coming from the one job that does the LEAST amount of actions out of any mage job. (RDM refresh order alone is 10 times what a BLM does, BRDs cast long spellcast songs; though I do agree BRD is probably #2 for -nas, but cant be counted on to paralyna a tank for example.) Stop trying to justify to yourself the choices you make. Yes /RDM is a good subjob for many instances, but to ignore the fact that most BLMs who sub it, sub it in order to get out of the responsibilities of subbing /WHM, is bullshit.

Speak for yourself. I sub RDM because if I sub WHM my convert ratio changes and more often than not I lose my 10MAB latent mid cast on a tier 4, and I cant really afford to carry another piece of gear to convert while sitting at 58/60 on BLM. I am happy to be a /whm but what am I there for? BLM's wear 5MAB on their ear from level 47 to eternity, do you know why that is? Now consider 10MAB, double that. The damage:mp ratio goes up.

BLM/WHM is situational, the same as BLM/RDM is situational. The thing is, when BLM/WHM isnt needed, BLM/RDM offers more to the basic job of being a BLM, and that is DD, whether you like it or not. I am HAPPY to status cure, dont get me wrong. When it is needed, I will be the first person to sub WHM. When we have 7 people at fafnir and I need to blindna and possibly raise, I will be /whm. But when we have an alliance of people, of which atleast 1/3rd will probably be able to cast blindna, I'm not going to sub it. When I'm not needed to be casting, I will be resting.

BLM/RDM is more solo-capable. At Tiamat, BLM/RDM can solo the adds more effeciantly and easily, although ofcourse one of the Tiamat stunners atleast should be /WHM (again, situational. Some blms will be /rdm, some will be whm). At Fafnir, again, it is good to have some /rdm and some /whm. Gravity and bind will most likely not be needed, ofcourse. Then again, neither should raise and blindna be needed from a blm/whm, but shit happens.

I dont think /WHM should be standard anymore than /rdm should be standard. The reason I sub RDM as standard is that if the need arises for me to deal with a situation alone (killing linked spiders for tping up... dealing with darter adds when we have a shortage of blms... etc), is far easier as /rdm, and my latent 10MAB is far easier to maintain with /rdm. If that makes me lazy, so be it, but damn, fafnir blind lasts all of 10 seconds - get over it. There will always be other people with the things that are available to me in the alliance as /rdm or as /whm - neither will be lacking. In terms of solo consideration, rdm offers me more, so I use it.

[Lockecole]

Alot of smart shit, by a BLM who understands when to sub the correct job. <3

Didn't wanna spam up the page with huge quotes, but trust me, I love a BLM who has /RDM on shit like Temperance, where he knows having an ES Gravity at the right time (Sup SAM 2hour) can save the day, and where having Phalanx can help keep your stoneskin up so you can rest those couple extra ticks during Fafnir. 99% of what I said doesn't apply to you, and BLMs who understand exactly when to use what subjob, are a gift from God. Sadly, this isn't true of alot of people who just get BLM to 75 to get in an HNMLS, not because they care how well they perform.

And not to butt heads again with Onizuka but...

You'd think blm was a healer/support job from what some of you are saying.. I thought blm was a DD, i must be mistaken...

I thought SAMs were supposed to be tanks and NINs were supposed to be support DD/Enfeeblers. Guess someone decided to think outside of the box and just use the best subjob that benefited their party, and their alliance, instead of putting their job in a cookie-cutter position. Glad you fail to recognize that. BLM isn't a DD, no job is anything. Jobs are what you make of them, and change situationally. BLM is a DD? Welcome to Jailer of Temperance: better think of ways you can benefit your alliance without doing damage, and do it quick.

/sub what you want if a blm doesn't want to cure he doesn't have to cause last i checked my blm spell list i don't have any curing spells..

Last I checked WAR didnt have Utsusemi, but that doesnt stop me from using my subjob to the fullest extent and casting it. Why do you think subjobs were made in this game? As an after thought into how your job should be played? If anything, for most jobs, the subjob MAKES or BREAKS how that job performs what it does and it's role in a party.

[Onizuka]

Not gonna quote seeing the post is right above mine.

1: I sub whm
2: I dislike blm that don't cure
3: Sam was never ment to be a tank and nin was ment to be like drk enfeb/dd well drk doesn't enfeb and nin tanks SE mistakes not mine

I say blm don't have to cure cause it's not their job by default doesn't make it right but it's true.

I would sub whm because i don't mind using it to make the party/alliance go smother and let other blms go /rdm i can handle alot of stuff /whm no need for 5 blm to sub whm.

Thing about you subbing nin etc, thats because you want to it just so happends the thing you want and whats right for the party is the same thing.

This game is ment to be fun if someone doesn't have fun being blm/whm i cant blame them, they didn't lvl whm as their main for a reason. If a blm doesn't like going /whm to ls events i cant blame him for it just aslong as he does it when the ls needs him to(ideal situations)

[MikedeeFenrir]

This is what I've taken from this thread.

BLM is a "Back-Up Healer."
WHM doesn't do there job correctly with Erase, Cures, -na, and bar- spells.
BRD doesn't learn Erase, and if they have it, they don't use it.
RDM is not allowed to sub WHM when needed, it makes more sense for a BLM to sub WHM.
BLM/PLD is awesome.


...lol.


Edit:

I'll be lvn' PLD to 37, JUST so I can cap Divine Magic on RDM, and if you want to complain why no Divine Magic Spell for RDM huh? >____>

[Lockecole]

Not gonna quote seeing the post is right above mine.

1: I sub whm
2: I dislike blm that don't cure
3: Sam was never ment to be a tank and nin was ment to be like drk enfeb/dd well drk doesn't enfeb and nin tanks SE mistakes not mine

I say blm don't have to cure cause it's not their job by default doesn't make it right but it's true.

I would sub whm because i don't mind using it to make the party/alliance go smother and let other blms go /rdm i can handle alot of stuff /whm no need for 5 blm to sub whm.

Let's just say I went off on a rant because I have exact situations in my time playing throughout this game, that have involved BLMs directly gimping their alliance through lack of proper subjob usage/making bad decisions with that subjob. I understand its not the way you play your BLM, and I laud you for that, I just don't feel that it's an acceptable way of playing the game. (using an improper sub). A wise man once said. "Oh, it's your $12.99? Thats nice, it's our $64.95. GTFO." Solo if you wanna gimp yourself. It's the only justafiable means of doing it. (not directing this at you)

Thing about you subbing nin etc, thats because you want to it just so happends the thing you want and whats right for the party is the same thing.

I do it because it gets me the best EXP/hour, and its the most beneficial thing for the role I play 99% of the time in my LS. Stuff like Proto-Omega I use /THF, because its whats needed for the setup we use. I'd sub /WHM if it was needed in tank PT for wyrms like IRON does. I guess you hit a point where putting the needs of an LS go ahead of your own. I guess thats the defining factor that seperates some people.

This game is ment to be fun if someone doesn't have fun being blm/whm i cant blame them, they didn't lvl whm as their main for a reason. If a blm doesn't like going /whm to ls events i cant blame him for it just aslong as he does it when the ls needs him to(ideal situations)

Agreed, I wouldn't want someone to sub something they didn't enjoy. Just letting you know this person would probably fail in an HNMLS, and isn't fit for endgame, and wouldn't be in my LS. I hated WHM from 1-37, and yet ask anyone, Im the most annoying BRD when it comes to removing NAs and backup curing, its almost to a fault. It's all about what you expect from the people around you, what your standards of play are for those around you. I blame endgame for raising mine probably a little too high.

[Onizuka]

I guess we both have problems with people using gimp and improper sub jobs only diffrence is i don't think /rdm on blm is a gimp and improper sub.

If it was whm/rdm, blm/smn, brd/smn, and or smn/blm, thats a diffrent story to me because their are other sub jobs that are better in all aspects for those jobs.

blm/rdm & blm/whm both have good points and draw backs compared to the other, you can use the 1 you prefer for the most part and switch to the other for situations where it's better/needed.

[Delekii]

I guess we both have problems with people using gimp and improper sub jobs only diffrence is i don't think /rdm on blm is a gimp and improper sub.

If it was whm/rdm, blm/smn, brd/smn, and or smn/blm, thats a diffrent story to me because their are other sub jobs that are better in all aspects for those jobs.

blm/rdm & blm/whm both have good points and draw backs compared to the other, you can use the 1 you prefer for the most part and switch to the other for situations where it's better/needed.

Lockercole didnt say that /rdm is a gimp sub - he said that in the wrong situation, both whm and rdm can be gimp subs.

[Septimus]

If your LS is so desperate for /WHM at events that the world literally hangs in the balance for BLMs to use status cures, maybe some of the melees should sub WHM...

Now we are really thinking outside of the box.

[whm_mahler]

blm/rdm & blm/whm both have good points and draw backs compared to the other, you can use the 1 you prefer for the most part and switch to the other for situations where it's better/needed

exactly.

[Raineer]

I guess we both have problems with people using gimp and improper sub jobs only diffrence is i don't think /rdm on blm is a gimp and improper sub.

If it was whm/rdm, blm/smn, brd/smn, and or smn/blm, thats a diffrent story to me because their are other sub jobs that are better in all aspects for those jobs.

blm/rdm & blm/whm both have good points and draw backs compared to the other, you can use the 1 you prefer for the most part and switch to the other for situations where it's better/needed.

Lockercole didnt say that /rdm is a gimp sub - he said that in the wrong situation, both whm and rdm can be gimp subs.

My biggest problem is BLM's that REFUSE to level /WHM at all becuase they use the "i am a DD not a mage" excuse. Sorry if you are BLM75 and you don't have WHM37 then you are gimp, there's no other way to word it. Suck it up and get it done. You might have to sub /WHM once every 3 months, but it better fucking be available.

The biggest impact is seen in small groups in sea or the like, it's nice when tanks die b/c there is not enough -na's or an erase available just because you decide that you are a DD and nothing else.

"WHM to 37 is so hard ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;/emo", give me a fucking break... Every other job in the game has to level more than one sub (some like 5), I guess BLM needs to be the emo exception.

Again just like locke's post... if you know when to sub /rdm and when to sub /whm then this post doesn't apply to you. Yes /rdm is better in quite a majority of situations obviously, but not always and that's the point.