Dual Wield nerfed.

[kareface]

Oh, sorry. Not a main sam so I didn't realise. If that really is the case then u/u katana combos are even more screwed, lol.

So, it really come down to, the extra swings you need to build TP to 100% with the u/u combo have to compensate for the diffrence in base weapon damage (and in the cast of f/s, the 9% crit rate).

Ninja update: Ok, did one more test. A friend in game asked me to try this out. With 2, 150 delay daggers, on nin main with .65 dual wield (or 97.5 base delay) I was still getting 4.3 TP per swing. So the new floor for TP very well could be 4.3.

[Heian]

I still don't get why they nerfed DW... Why not just nerf /nin, that was the whole point anyway...

DW IS NOT NERFED! WEAPONS THAT EXPLOITED THE NORMAL RATE AT WHICH TP IS GAINED WERE ADJUSTED TO BE PARALLEL WITH ALL OTHER TYPES OF TP GAIN. THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. THE END.

Clear?

Fact.

The problem now is finding the right balance between DW Traits and Delay. Just finished a short sky burn for buffer. My friend on WAR was saying [Using Maneater/Juggy] said that there was almost no difference for him in TP gain. I think he said he noticed he needed about one more hit or less. With Brutal, AF2 Legs and capped Double Attack its no nerf for him at all.

Myself, I just simply used my normal gear setup with Suppanomimi and did just fine. Only needed one extra hit than normal for Jin. The only fucking thing that is annoying now is the 11% TP return and the occasional 12% due to Store TP. So I can never really tell anymore when I get a Double Attack in WS or Crit hits, I just have to guess which sucks.

There was also a pretty well merited and decently geared JP NIN in my PT last night as well. Melee'd in AF1 Body seemed to TP almost the same as me, but I'm on PS2 so I can not really tell how fast other people TP.

Its more annoying than a nerf really. I just can't wait to see all the Unji/Unsho NINs switch to Fudo/Senji and realize that they parser alot higher.

[kareface]

I was just playing around with the Sup. Earring. Ok, everywhere I have read says that it gives a .05 DW bonus. Or 5% faster swing speeds. One problem I noticed is that I seem to be losing more then 5% TP per swing when I use it. Test with it off yielded around 4.8% TP per swing with 2, 227 delay katanas. If someone can test this out, posting their TP return, please do.

Now, tests with the earring equiped returned about 4.35. 5% of 4.8 is .24, so I should be seeing more like 4.56 TP return. Maybe I made a mistake but I double checked everything. If anyone else can test this out and see what the diffrence between TP returned is w/ and w/o a Sup. earring.

[Heian]

I was just playing around with the Sup. Earring. Ok, everywhere I have read says that it gives a .05 DW bonus. Or 5% faster swing speeds. One problem I noticed is that I seem to be losing more then 5% TP per swing when I use it. Test with it off yielded around 4.8% TP per swing with 2, 227 delay katanas. If someone can test this out, posting their TP return, please do.

Now, tests with the earring equiped returned about 4.35. 5% of 4.8 is .24, so I should be seeing more like 4.56 TP return. Maybe I made a mistake but I double checked everything. If anyone else can test this out and see what the diffrence between TP returned is w/ and w/o a Sup. earring.

Give me about 5 minutes and I will do what I did before in my earlier posts, but this time I will test without Rajas.

[Onizuka]

I still don't get why they nerfed DW... Why not just nerf /nin, that was the whole point anyway...

DW IS NOT NERFED! WEAPONS THAT EXPLOITED THE NORMAL RATE AT WHICH TP IS GAINED WERE ADJUSTED TO BE PARALLEL WITH ALL OTHER TYPES OF TP GAIN. THANK YOU FOR LISTENING. THE END.

Clear?

Err i know that.. Dunno about you but i read all posts before i post a statement so please don't quote me and talk like i cant fucking read simple text..

It's a DW nerf imo because it's the only thing it affects..clear? asswipe

Only jobs hurt by this are jobs that didn't need a nerf in anyway so you can count numbers all you want this fact doesn't change..

Changing the TP floor is not a problem and should have been this way from day 1 but the job that gets hit the hardest is already low on dmg potential.

Before this the lower the delay the better the higher the delay the worse so it's more balanced now. Thing is this is the last thing they should have fixed they have enough broken things to work on, then this wouldn't even be a nerf but a TP adjustment and nobody would lose much if anything from it only gain a more balanced game.

[Lily]

After limbus last night, I'm getting 18% pentathrusts now with brutal/rajas and Ori lance (guessing 14+1+1+1+1). 19% when I dbl atk. Confusing the heck out of me. Single hit wheeling thrust is 14% now, which used to be what I got if I wore homam body and occasionally got a triple atk on wheeling thrust (12+1+1 I guess, but quite rare). :< I can't remember what I was getting on jumps, but *think* it's 15% or 16% with my barone legs. But I really need to play around more. Pretty sure that if dbl atk procs on a jump you don't get the TP Bonus applied to the second 'hit' but I might be wrong.

[Heian]

75NIN No Dual Wield Enhancements

Using Fudo (main) Senjuriko (Sub)

With Rajas Ring on. No Haste Gear.

Dolphins in Sea at Entrance.

TP Gain Fight 1

10 10 10 10 15 10 10 10 15 10 10 15 10 10 10 [WSBlade:Jin 8 Return] 5 10 10

Rajas Ring Removed. No Haste Gear

TP Gain Fight 2

9 10 9 14 10 9 10 9 10 10 9 15 9 WSBlade: Jin 12 Return] Stoped Data here, was hit for TP gain.

TP Gain Fight 2-A

9 10 9 10 10 4 10 10 9 10 9 10 10 [WSBlade: Jin 11 Return] 10 9 10 10 [2 Gain for Physical Damage] 10 5 14 15 9 14 [WSBlade: Jin 9 Return]

Test 1: (227) x .7 = 158.9 Delay
Test 2 & 2-A: (227) x .7 = 158.9 Delay

The delay was constant, the only factor in TP gain this time was "Store: TP" +5 from Rajas Ring

Fight 1: (TP Total 185) / (37 Hits) [Excluding WS] = 5 TP per hit

Fight 2: (TP Total 133) / (28 Hits) [Exculding WS] = 4.75 TP per hit

Fight 2-A: (TP Total 226) / (47 Hits) [Exculding WS] = 4.81 TP per hit

Now Factor in That Rajas Ring is 5%+ TP per hit

(5.0) x (.05) = .25

So Fight 1 and Fight 2 make sense. Fight 2-A was of longer duration than Fight 2 and seems that the game rounds TP gain up slighty over time.

Suppanonimi and Rajas Ring on.

Test 4: (227) x .65 = 147.55 Delay

9 15 10 15 10 10 15 14 10 15 10 9 15 15 10 9 10 15 9 5 9 10

(TP Total 249) / (51 Hits) = 4.88 TP Per Hit

4.88 - .25 [Rajas Ring] = 4.63 TP Per Hit

So with Rajas Ring I am barely touched by the nerf simply because of Fudo/Senjuriko. I have a feeling once I get Brutal Earring the only way I will ever notice the nerf is on Jin TP return.

Once again SE would rather change one formula than fix the real problem with all two handed weapons and the jobs that rely solely on them.

[Lockecole]

Err i know that.. Dunno about you but i read all posts before i post a statement so please don't quote me and talk like i cant fucking read simple text..

It's a DW nerf imo because it's the only thing it affects..clear? asswipe

Only jobs hurt by this are jobs that didn't need a nerf in anyway so you can count numbers all you want this fact doesn't change..

Changing the TP floor is not a problem and should have been this way from day 1 but the job that gets hit the hardest is already low on dmg potential.

Before this the lower the delay the better the higher the delay the worse so it's more balanced now. Thing is this is the last thing they should have fixed they have enough broken things to work on, then this wouldn't even be a nerf but a TP adjustment and nobody would lose much if anything from it only gain a more balanced game.

Your comment was just the last comment, so I felt it was best to quote that, didn't mean to single you out, just someone had to be quoted. There was just alot of bullshit flying around about this last patch (lol @ the claim change theories), and I felt sometimes its just necessary to BOLD it for people, so people dont have to sort through 13 pages to realize what exactly happened. Not alot of people understand how TP works, not alot of people understand that there used to be a floor of 5TP, yes even melee themselves.

And as far as this not being a big issue, and that there are bigger things to deal with, I don't think thats true. We're talking about the SOLE REASON one DD job is taken over another in an EXP PT, is DoT and TP gain. This fixes one of those things, and by fixing TP gain, you in turn help fix DoT. (There's still the issue of high damage weapons not touching their max damage potential) Basically job balance is a HUGE issue in EXP PTs, and people getting invites, and because of that, I feel this was a very necessary change to how this game works. Every job but NIN, WAR and MNK being shafted out of EXP invites I feel was one of the hugest flaws in this game, and as long as people educate themselves on the changes made, this should be fixed.

Yes I have a THF75, NIN75, WAR75, so most of my jobs were affected by this, but to say THF got it worse isn't necessarily true. NIN and MNK were hit hard, mainly because of their low delay reduced by massive dual-wield traits and Martial Arts, making some NIN and MNKs have lower delay then most THFs, depending on dagger/sword setup.

[Heian]

I'll update more after a couple mroe tests.

[Onizuka]

(There's still the issue of high damage weapons not touching their max damage potential) Basically job balance is a HUGE issue in EXP PTs, and people getting invites, and because of that, I feel this was a very necessary change to how this game works. Every job but NIN, WAR and MNK being shafted out of EXP invites I feel was one of the hugest flaws in this game, and as long as people educate themselves on the changes made, this should be fixed.

Yea as i said it was needed, but why i said it shouldn't have been the first thing to be fixed is because while it may help it wont change much(in the exp pt sense) I think they should have made a few key jobs stronger before doing this so the balance would be complete.

Yes I have a THF75, NIN75, WAR75, so most of my jobs were affected by this, but to say THF got it worse isn't necessarily true. NIN and MNK were hit hard, mainly because of their low delay reduced by massive dual-wield traits and Martial Arts, making some NIN and MNKs have lower delay then most THFs, depending on dagger/sword setup.

Yea i know you have THF and WAR at 75(didn't know nin aswell) I think they hit thf the hardest because they have the lowest delay weapons and cant go over 180 delay, mnk however can but probally wouldn't want to anyway. MNK and NIN can switch to higher delay weapons if they please, thf cannot. Im not a THF however so you would probally know best but thats why i think thf was hit the hardest.

Now The thing that sucks is this was done for the reasons you stated and SE also made some statements on war/nin but the funny thing is nothing changed for war/nin and war/thf is just better.

[Lockecole]

(There's still the issue of high damage weapons not touching their max damage potential) Basically job balance is a HUGE issue in EXP PTs, and people getting invites, and because of that, I feel this was a very necessary change to how this game works. Every job but NIN, WAR and MNK being shafted out of EXP invites I feel was one of the hugest flaws in this game, and as long as people educate themselves on the changes made, this should be fixed.

Yea as i said it was needed, but why i said it shouldn't have been the first thing to be fixed is because while it may help it wont change much(in the exp pt sense) I think they should have made a few key jobs stronger before doing this so the balance would be complete.

Well, don't forget, job changes are still being implemented for SAM (new uses for TP, TP down on mobs) new job changes for DRK, (making their spells more useful in addition to somehow making Scythe more useful). These are only some of the changes being made, so I think this is just the first change made across the board in a series of new changes, and the simplest most generic, yet still profound change in how job balance comes into play.

Yes I have a THF75, NIN75, WAR75, so most of my jobs were affected by this, but to say THF got it worse isn't necessarily true. NIN and MNK were hit hard, mainly because of their low delay reduced by massive dual-wield traits and Martial Arts, making some NIN and MNKs have lower delay then most THFs, depending on dagger/sword setup.

Yea i know you have THF and WAR at 75(didn't know nin aswell) I think they hit thf the hardest because they have the lowest delay weapons and cant go over 180 delay, mnk however can but probally wouldn't want to anyway. MNK and NIN can switch to higher delay weapons if they please, thf cannot. Im not a THF however so you would probally know best but thats why i think thf was hit the hardest.

Well, on my THF I use Harpe/Ridill (210+236 delay) That's more then a NIN (potentially) and MNK (MNK is like 330+weapon @75) as far as delay. I know it's a little gimp in comparison to Blau, but when you have a decked WAR and NIN, capped Sword merits + Fort Torque, you're hardly worried about spending 15MIL/30MIL on an already subpar DD job. Also regardless, THF has to realize it has the whole Treasure Hunter title along with dropping hate on tanks going for it. I know none of this helps us in an EXP PT, but sometimes you have to realize that you have to sacrifice some things in order to do others. As much as I want Treasure Hunter for my WAR, it'll never happen, and I think the same way THF shouldnt expect to be up there with WAR as far as damage. (Though in Lufaise, my THF blows my WAR away.)

Now The thing that sucks is this was done for the reasons you stated and SE also made some statements on war/nin but the funny thing is nothing changed for war/nin and war/thf is just better.

Well, the issue wasnt so much with WAR/NIN being too strong (though I will admit it is), just that they wanted to open up alot of other subjobs for WAR, so that all we subbed wasn't /NIN. I dont think thats a big deal though, alot of jobs only touch one subjob. SAM almost always subs THF in the instances that it is needed for hate control, and THF almost always subs /NIN in anything involving an EXP PT or possible hate gain. I sub THF on WAR sometimes, but in reality its not that /NIN is too strong, just that for the most part, the role I play is support tank, not pure DD/hate control with THF. If we had the set amount of tanks, I like to come /THF, as dropping hate on tanks can be very beneficial to how smooth a battle goes. But yeah, it does seem kinda odd that even with the lowest delay weapons ideally possible (Maneater/Ridill) WAR still wasn't touched by the nerf. (Though I believe Ridill/Joy with Suppa falls under 5TP/hit.)

[Maxxthepenguin]

Well last night I was in a Lufaise merit party (the leader wanted to go there with only one piercing user, don't know why.) It was initially DRK/WAR (me) THF/NIN WAR/NIN NIN/WAR RDM/WHM WHM/SMN. Later the THF had to go and we got a DRG/WAR. As far as TP in action, I didn't see TP gain itself (grrr windower broke) but I know I was WSing as much as the NIN, and I held back a decent amount. I was only outparsed by the DRG+Wyvern. The only time I died was one unlucky event where the ram used petribreath and then used bleat while the NIN was still petrified and I got hate.

So, in action, TP gain is great now for 2h weapons.

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

Why doesn't SE just give 2h weapon the same TP return property from back in the old days? 50+ and 60+ tp return on Penta, Guillo, Raging Rush, and keep 1h weapon tp return the way it is now? Seems fucking balanced to me. I'm a genius.

WAR/THF with GA spamming raging rush getting 36 TP return, and using proper haste gear will do damage and gain tp equal to that of the best Duel Wield /NIN set up.

DRK can now /NIN and spam Guillo getting 50+ tp return in spam pt, and still have Stun to offer.

DRG/NIN spamming penta in Lufais over and over = hawt.

[layoneil]

since when did WS TP return depend on whether a weapon was 1 handed or 2?

Penta and Guillo got a lot of TP because they were multi-hit. i don't think Raging Rush ever had high TP return

and if they repealed that nerf, Dancing Edge, Jin, Rampage and Asuran Fist will be broken.

[epigram]

Have you heard of Relic Knuckles?

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

Ok so I wasn't clear on that. Give ONLY 2h weapons weapons that TP return property. Fuck Rampage even if it's 5 hits. Old school tp return = 2h weapon only. Leave 1h weapons the way they are now

Edit: Raging Rush is a 3 hit ws, and if I remember correctly, that would give it 36 TP return, and with double attack, 48 TP.

Seriously, this is what 2-hand weapons need = old school tp return on ws.

[Krandor]

If they implemented that then 2 handed weapons would be broken and overpowered (You'd be looking at shit like a Guillotine going off every 10 or so seconds).

And new TP return on GAs is 14.5 I believe, or at least that's what the WARs in my LS were saying while we played with Darters Monday night testing out the new TP formulas

[epigram]

h2h is 2 handed? It's not like they can sub nin and weild 4 claws?

So a monk with Relic Knuckles landing 8 hits will get 200tp+ Hell you just need 4 to spam and do nothing but AF...

[Onizuka]

As i said in a previous post not all melee have to be super DD, if drk had decent spells to offer it would be just fine i.e the only reason rdm is what it is, is because of 1 simple spell, thats it 1 spell, without it the job would have alot of problems getting a party even though it's a good enfebler/support job.

With thf i think they should be able to SATA from the front(100% of the time), that way you could always use a thf in the alliance for hate control and TH. It will also make THF the SATA job once again and not drk's, sams, and wars subbing thf and doing double the dmg they do, it just doesn't make sense.

If SE doesn't want to fix thf then just remove spike fail and make TA a lvl 38 ability which would just make even more jobs sub war and SE seems to want people to sub diffrent things so i suggest they go with option #1.

[JeanClaudVanDamme]

Well, the way things are, 2-handed weapon is a complete joke next to your typical end game merit DD today (Ridill WAR, NINs, MNK) who spams their ws every 20 seconds anyway.

Thinking about this further, all relics should have old school tp return. That'll make it SO fucking worth upgrading. WARs will actually want to upgrade their Bravura instead of clinging on to Ridill's nuts.