Dual Wield nerfed.

[Paralyzed]

GS also only takes 8 swings now, compared to the 9 it took before.

[Zirk]

Hello everyone, I've been reading these forums for quite some time now, hell, I gave away my character Zirk, and am on another account.

Anyway, I'm sure many of you remember at some point SE released a huge list of things they were implementing in the game in the upcomming expansion update. One of these statements was along the lines of how they felt WARs were using /NIN too much, and they wanted to provide motivation to use different sub jobs.

Perhaps this "motivation" was slightly reducing TP gained from Dual Wield trait, and slightly increasing TP gain from 2 handed weapons. This would explain why NINs and THFs have been experiencing lower TP gain every so often, as well as NINs gaining less TP when NIN AF1 body was equipped (enhances Dual Wield). This would also explain what the OP said about getting 6 TP a swing with only 1 katana, thus not making use of Dual Wield and its possible TP nerf.

Although this still doesn't fully explain what I've read that WAR/NINs arn't really seeing any TP loss so far, and also why my monk is gaining 4 TP for about every 4th to 5th punch with Destroyers equipped, (this is without Rajas or Brutal Earring) and my max TP return from Asuran Fists is 15 TP

Just a thought, sorry about the wall-o-text like post.

[Heian]

Hello everyone, I've been reading these forums for quite some time now, hell, I gave away my character Zirk, and am on another account.

Anyway, I'm sure many of you remember at some point SE released a huge list of things they were implementing in the game in the upcomming expansion update. One of these statements was along the lines of how they felt WARs were using /NIN too much, and they wanted to provide motivation to use different sub jobs.

Perhaps this "motivation" was slightly reducing TP gained from Dual Wield trait, and slightly increasing TP gain from 2 handed weapons. This would explain why NINs and THFs have been experiencing lower TP gain every so often, as well as NINs gaining less TP when NIN AF1 body was equipped (enhances Dual Wield). This would also explain what the OP said about getting 6 TP a swing with only 1 katana, thus not making use of Dual Wield and its possible TP nerf.

Although this still doesn't fully explain what I've read that WAR/NINs arn't really seeing any TP loss so far, and also why my monk is gaining 4 TP for about every 4th to 5th punch with Destroyers equipped, (this is without Rajas or Brutal Earring) and my max TP return from Asuran Fists is 15 TP

Just a thought, sorry about the wall-o-text like post.

Yeah I am thinking that this is due to Dual Wield and Weapon Delay. I have to help someone with SMN AF now, but I am gonna make a long post here in a couple hours with all the tests I am going to do.

Also Russta if you are still browsing, I need your help with some MNK and WAR/NIN tests. PM me if you are able.

[genome]

I get 16tp back from asuran. It's possible sometimes you can get 15 maybe, but 15% is definitely not the new max return.

[kareface]

Ok, did a few tests with ninja, heres what I i put together:

Haste: Increases attack speed with out affecting TP return

Dual Wield Bonus: The Dual Wield Bonus lowers the avarage delay of the weapons.

So now, if you have 2 weapons that avarage out to be about 227 delay, if you take into account ninjas DW w/ suppanomimi you are looking at .65 delay reduction. Or about 147 delay. Now we figured that the base delay of your weapon has to be above 180 delay to be unaffected by the TP change. That does not include the DW bonus.

So to see how much you will be affected, take your DW bonus:

Nin SJ at 75: .85
Nin SJ at 75 w/ Suppanomimi: .80

Nin main at 75: .7
Nin main at 75 w/ Suppanomimi: .65

Suppanomimi: -.5
AF2 pants: -.5
Af1 Body: -.5
Stupid SJ belt: -.1

So for a nin main, with a Suppanomimi, I'm looking at .65.
Take the avarage delay of your katanas (WeaponA + WeaponB)*.5=Wavarage
Then mutliply the avarage by whatever your current DW bonus is. Wavarage*DW bonus=Base Delay
For me its .65, and i get about 147 delay. That is below the 180 delay marker so I will be affected by the patch.

After testing out TP gain, I can see my avarage TP gain is about 4.35-4.45 per swing. So im about .65-.55 below what I would be getting pre-patch. Or about a 12% nerf. So I will WS 12% less often on nin then before with 2, 227 base katanas.

This patch will hurt ninjas and thfs the most. The lower the delay weapon you were using pre-patch, the harder you will be hit. So Unsho and beestingers are bad times now. You do swing faster, but your TP return will be much lower.

Note: StoreTP is unaffected, so there was no reason to use/test it. Naturaly you will get .5 more tp with the rajas then my results.

[Severance]

Ok, did a few tests with ninja, heres what I i put together:

Haste: Increases attack speed with out affecting TP return

Dual Wield Bonus: The Dual Wield Bonus lowers the avarage delay of the weapons.

So now, if you have 2 weapons that avarage out to be about 227 delay, if you take into account ninjas DW w/ suppanomimi you are looking at .65 delay reduction. Or about 147 delay. Now we figured that the base delay of your weapon has to be above 180 delay to be unaffected by the TP change. That does not include the DW bonus.

So to see how much you will be affected, take your DW bonus:

Nin SJ at 75: .85
Nin SJ at 75 w/ Suppanomimi: .80

Nin main at 75: .7
Nin main at 75 w/ Suppanomimi: .65

Suppanomimi: -.5
AF2 pants: -.5
Af1 Body: -.5
Stupid SJ belt: -.1

So for a nin main, with a Suppanomimi, I'm looking at .65.
Take the avarage delay of your katanas (WeaponA + WeaponB)*.5=Wavarage
Then mutliply the avarage by whatever your current DW bonus is. Wavarage*DW bonus=Base Delay
For me its .65, and i get about 147 delay. That is below the 180 delay marker so I will be affected by the patch.

After testing out TP gain, I can see my avarage TP gain is about 4.35-4.45 per swing. So im about .65-.55 below what I would be getting pre-patch. Or about a 12% nerf. So I will WS 12% less often on nin then before with 2, 227 base katanas.

This patch will hurt ninjas and thfs the most. The lower the delay weapon you were using pre-patch, the harder you will be hit. So Unsho and beestingers are bad times now. You do swing faster, but your TP return will be much lower.

Note: StoreTP is unaffected, so there was no reason to use/test it. Naturaly you will get .5 more tp with the rajas then my results.

i dont like se now

[Elemmire]

This makes me laugh at the many WAR, NIN, MNK players. I can say lolmelee more! whooo!

[kareface]

This makes me laugh at the many WAR, NIN, MNK players. I can say lolmelee more! whooo!

Wars will actualy be one of the least attected. Because their weapon delays are much higher then nins and thf. Im not sure how h2h works because thats not a fourm of DW.

[Stilgar]

Like Russta said, MNKs aren't effected too much. lolmage?

[Dan]

The hell is the use of weakening jobs when there is no pvp?

[Heian]

Ok here are a tests that I have done so far. Using Ul'hpemde's at the entrance of Al'Taieu as targets.

Fight 1:

Main: Fudo
Sub: Senjuriko
Amno: Bomb Core
Head: Optical Hat
Neck: Peacock Chram
Ear1: Supponimi
Ear2: Fenrir's Earring
Body: Ninja Chainmail
Hands: Ochiudo's Kote
Ring1: Rajas Ring
Ring2: Flame Ring
Back: Foragers Mantle
Waist: Warwolf Belt
Legs: Ninja Hakama (Fuck you Byakko you stingy whore)
Feet: Fuma Sune-Ate

TP Results are number out by gain per round

TP Gain with no WS

4 10 10 9 10 5 9 10 9 15 9 20 9 10 9 10 9 10 14 15 9 10 9 10

Fight 2:

Main: Fudo
Sub: Senjuriko
Amno: Bomb Core
Head: Optical Hat
Neck: Peacock Chram
Ear1: Supponimi
Ear2: Fenrir's Earring
Body: Haub
Hands: Ochiudo's Kote
Ring1: Rajas Ring
Ring2: Flame Ring
Back: Foragers Mantle
Waist: Warwolf Belt
Legs: Ninja Hakama (Fuck you Byakko you stingy whore)
Feet: Fuma Sune-Ate

TP Gain No WS

9 5 15 10 14 15 10 10 5 9 10 10 15 9 10 10 15 9 10 10 10 10 5 9



This second fight I can live with. I was averaging almost the exact same TP gain with Rajas on than a NIN without Rajas pre-patch. I am not taking Supponimi off for burn PTs. Simply because of the faster swinging gives a better chance for Crit hits and Double Attacks.

I'll update this in a few minutes.

Also Kareface, great work. You proved what I was thinking earlier about the delay of the weapon and Dual Wield Traits being the factors for TP gain now. Guessing that THFs Blah-Duche or whatever is going to drop in price alot..

[kareface]

Also Kareface, great work. You proved what I was thinking earlier about the delay of the weapon and Dual Wield Traits being the factors for TP gain now. Guessing that THFs Blah-Duche or whatever is going to drop in price alot..

Thanks. One thing I would like to note with DW. You will gain less TP per swing off a lower delay weapon, but you will swing more often. So the weapon won't be as good as it was before. That doesn't mean a higher delay weapoon is any better. I will say that this patch does hurt the lower delay weapons the most tho.

[Heian]

Fight 3:

Main: Fudo
Sub: Senjuriko
Amno: Bomb Core
Head: Optical Hat
Neck: Peacock Chram
Ear1: Diabolos' Earring
Ear2: Fenrir's Earring
Body: Haub
Hands: Ochiudo's Kote
Ring1: Rajas Ring
Ring2: Flame Ring
Back: Foragers Mantle
Waist: Warwolf Belt
Legs: Ninja Hakama (Fuck you Byakko you stingy whore)
Feet: Fuma Sune-Ate


10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 10 5 10 11 10 10 10 10 [WSJin 12] 10
10 15 10 5

As of fights in my usual Burn PT gear I was averaging 11TP Jins as all three hits with no Double Attack. In this current setup listed above I have hitting 12% TP return Jin's , again all three hits connecting.

Since the best the best DoT Katanas are mostly 227 Delay there is no way to get the numbers just high enough for pre-patch TP gain that I can think of without sacrificing Attack Speed. Honestly I can live with losing 3~8 TP per fight. Simply because with Haste Gear and Supponimi I have a higher chance of procing a DA or Crit hit.

Overall

FUCK YOU SE, FIX THE REAL FUCKING PROBLMES

[Heian]

Also Kareface, great work. You proved what I was thinking earlier about the delay of the weapon and Dual Wield Traits being the factors for TP gain now. Guessing that THFs Blah-Duche or whatever is going to drop in price alot..

Thanks. One thing I would like to note with DW. You will gain less TP per swing off a lower delay weapon, but you will swing more often. So the weapon won't be as good as it was before. That doesn't mean a higher delay weapoon is any better. I will say that this patch does hurt the lower delay weapons the most tho.

Yep it means some of the Unsho and Unji NINs I burn with will be switching to the higher DPS overall Fudo/Senji setup. I have never been a fan of the Unji/Unsho setup because you are throwing away 8~9 Base Damage per hand and 9% Critical Hit Rate increase. I just do not see the logic in it, but hey whatever. I bet in less than one week there will be a shitload of Unji/Unsho being sold in Rollanberry Mall, all of them undercutting each other.

[ps2user]

Also Kareface, great work. You proved what I was thinking earlier about the delay of the weapon and Dual Wield Traits being the factors for TP gain now. Guessing that THFs Blah-Duche or whatever is going to drop in price alot..

Thanks. One thing I would like to note with DW. You will gain less TP per swing off a lower delay weapon, but you will swing more often. So the weapon won't be as good as it was before. That doesn't mean a higher delay weapoon is any better. I will say that this patch does hurt the lower delay weapons the most tho.

Yep it means some of the Unsho and Unji NINs I burn with will be switching to the higher DPS overall Fudo/Senji setup. I have never been a fan of the Unji/Unsho setup because you are throwing away 8~9 Base Damage per hand and 9% Critical Hit Rate increase. I just do not see the logic in it, but hey whatever. I bet in less than one week there will be a shitload of Unji/Unsho being sold in Rollanberry Mall, all of them undercutting each other.

not really.
this tp nerf is hardly noticeable in a long run.
it doesnt change the fact u/u still hit faster.

you might need another attack round to hit 100tp, but if you missed 1 hit or double attack 1hit, you wont notice that 1tp loss per round at all.

[Tyrath]

I dont get this TP floor thing >.> Someone wanna explain?

[Tdizzle]

I think it was explained the best earlier in the thread. The nerf is not a full on tp nerf persay its a dual wield nerf for the most part.

They just lowered the tp floor from 5 to 4.5 or 4. (I haven't tested yet myself). This would be why wars or monks seeing much of a difference. Duel wield has always lowered the delay of weapons but now instead of thf and nin with the lowest delay weapons will not be able to get a static 5tp no matter how low the combined delay was.

Now they'll (and I'm in that group) have to deal with a .5 or whatever tp hit and the "exploit" that was always talked about is no longer there as it once was.

Seems like they didnt fully think this one out. Thf will be hit the hardest here and well thats probably not what they intended. Only the nins using the most dual wield gear and using lowest delay katanas will feel anything. Noone else should notice a difference at all.

Basically it looks like they helped war lol. Use a great axe = tp bonus, use whatever you had before and sub nin = no change. Genius!

[Kitashi]

Ok. You know that TP return has always been based on the delay of your weapon, right? Well, there used to be a certain delay where... if you went below that... you'd still get 5% TP returns per hit. Therefore, you were abusing the TP floor and getting faster TP than someone who was at the TP floor (or above.) If you could have somehow gotten a delay of 10, you would have machinegun-hit the mob for 5 TP each strike. I forget what the target delay was exactly, but for a few jobs it wasn't unreasonably hard to reach.

So now they either lowered or removed the TP floor.

[kareface]

They just lowered the tp floor from 5 to 4.5 or 4.

No, if there is a floor, its alot lower. My guess is that its been removed competely.

[Tyrath]

Alrighty, thx for the info!