Dual Wield nerfed.

[Heian]

Thief wasn't the weakest DoT job in the game. But...they might be now...

Yes they were... toss a THF and any other job with similarly priced equipment in a party, fight something not piercing weak, and the other job will have more DoT. THF is best at controlling enmity, not DDing.

You are a fucking idiot Maxx. This is about about TP and TP Floor. Both of which DRK still fucking suck at. Yes any decently gear and merited THF will fucking wipe the floor with about 90~95% of DRKs on ANY server. Its about how fast can you get TP and use a strong WS, thats it. I have never seen a DRK out TP a THF. Ever. Even with Ridill, you can't touch a THFs delay and Triple Attack.

You yourself have said serveral times over that you don't have any experience with Ridill WARs and I am gonna guess you have not seen a good THF in sky, much less Lufaise Medows.

The only DRK I ever take to burn PTs uses Axe/Ridill because of the TP gain and TP Floor because GS/Scythe just take too long to get 100% TP. Actually I take that back he comes as a WAR now lawlz.

[Eaglestrike]

It's 4.5 when you Dual Wield. It's 4.66% single wield. At least 4.66% is the least amount of tp anyone will receive as my 150 damage dagger gives me that when Dual Wielding.

I assume you mean delay? 4.5 maybe the floor then, I will have to test it with some low delay daggers. 4.66% one handed I don't think is the floor tho. Because thats about what you should be getting from a 150 delay weapon. Remember, 5.0 tp return is from a 180 delay weapon and 6.1 from a 277. So that's about right. I would like to know what daggers you tested this with.

Subnote: There is an emergency maintenance today. I wonder if changes will be made to the TP system again.

Ninja Edit: I'm a moron. 4.5 can't be the floor. I know because i was getting less then that eariler today. My tp return with .65 dual wield with 2x227 katanas was 4.35-4.45 per swing. With the dualwield bonus my base delay is 147.55, in otherwords less then the delay of your dagger. So 4.5 is not the new floor and it could possibly be lower. I'll have to test it with 201 delay katanas after the server comes back up.

Maybe Dual Wield traits effect TP floor too? I was using Sirocco/Hornetneedle. That's 300 delay, with DW2 and Suppa that's around a 240 delay, you don't really get faster than that. I got 9 tp per round, over and over again. Then with my Blau/Sirocco, 263ish Delay, I still got 9tp per round. So maybe they nerfed nin even more?

[Maxxthepenguin]

Well I was GOING to stay out of this thread now, but since you addressed this specifically to me..

Thief wasn't the weakest DoT job in the game. But...they might be now...

Yes they were... toss a THF and any other job with similarly priced equipment in a party, fight something not piercing weak, and the other job will have more DoT. THF is best at controlling enmity, not DDing.

You are a fucking idiot Maxx. This is about about TP and TP Floor. Both of which DRK still fucking suck at. Yes any decently gear and merited THF will fucking wipe the floor with about 90~95% of DRKs on ANY server. Its about how fast can you get TP and use a strong WS, thats it. I have never seen a DRK out TP a THF. Ever. Even with Ridill, you can't touch a THFs delay and Triple Attack.

You've been to every server? Oh, I didn't know you were a GM in your spare time. Its not all about how fast you TP and WS, the hits in the middle count for a lot... try telling a WAR otherwise.
Oh and I've out TP'd THF before, it happens. Ridill would just make it that much crazier.

You yourself have said serveral times over that you don't have any experience with Ridill WARs and I am gonna guess you have not seen a good THF in sky, much less Lufaise Medows.

When did I say that? I've been in plenty of parties with ridill WARs. I've also been with good THFs, and yes, they are good THFs. But I outdamaged them (not in Lufaise of course.)

The only DRK I ever take to burn PTs uses Axe/Ridill because of the TP gain and TP Floor because GS/Scythe just take too long to get 100% TP. Actually I take that back he comes as a WAR now lawlz.

Axe/Ridill doesn't reach the TP floor, what are you talking about. DRK/WAR doesn't take too long to get 100 tp, especially not with the buff from today. And once again, if the people in the party pay attention, hate also doesn't need to be an issue, allowing the DRK to work to full potential (no souleater though.) You just have never seen a DRK that isnt either a WAR wannabe or a high number whore apparently.

Oh and if you think all there is to do is autoattack jerkbox, no wonder you suck as DRK. Stick to MNK and WAR please, don't make other jobs look crappy.

[Eaglestrike]

How the fuck do you out tp a thf? Blau/Sirocco = 263 delay. Capped Triple merits and AF2 boots = 11% Triple Attack chance. We used to get 5% per hit. 20 hits to get tp, say triple only goes off once (lolz) And that's what, 9 rounds to get tp? That's 2367 delay. That's what, under 5 scythe swings? Which would give you 13-14 tp each? So 70ish tp? And that's severely gimping my triple attack, since I will do it more than once in a round to get tp.

[Sigi]

Is there a minigame that lets DRK and DRG auto-attack harder that we don't know about? How much HARDER CAN YOU AUTO-ATTACK and watch a number get to 100% before you press a macro? hahaha......

No, with DRG (well equipped DRGs that is) we have to watch the hate line since some tanks don't understand the concept of hate control. Since most DRGs sub /war, we continually keep berserk up as much as possible.

Someone else has said that DRG is a very technical job, and it is. The problem is SE wants DRG to be /mage and go... gasp... solo. I believe this since most of the AF/JSE/Homam/AF+1/AFv2+1 focuses on stats that would increase survivability while soloing (like mp+ on some pieces >< ).

Other than that... yeah. DRG has gotten shafted for endgame fights since there is only a few sets of gear that buffs our str/att... when it seems that SE thinks a job that has an accuracy bonus trait (!) needs more accuracy, and not more str/att to slam a decent hit

[kareface]

No Unji/Unsho will parser lower. Take two people with identical merits and gear and race. Unji/Unsho will parser lower. Yeah sure it looks cool that you don't stop swinging but the numbers are not there. With this nerf on the Dual Wield and TP you will notice it. Infact next time I PT with my friend who uses it I will get the parser logs from a friend. Granted my gear is alot crappier compared to his but a few more weeks and I'll be on par.

We'll, the changes to the TP system make the TP gain for DW'ed weapons static. Simply put, if no other factors are involved, 2 low delay katanas and 2 higher delay katanas will TP at the same rate now. If you get 3 tp per swing, but you swing more often, you will get the same TP as someone that gets 4.5 tp per swing and swings less often. Morons will try and argue this fact, but this is the naked truth. Now that there isn't a floor to exploit theres no advantage to lower delays when building TP. The only dramatic factor with this is StoreTP. With store TP it gives you a set amount of TP bonus per swing, and not a % like most other things. So with store TP if you swing more often, you will see more of a bonus then with a higher delay weapon.

That being said the real corssroads comes at having a higher damage weapon that swings less often vs. a lower damage weapon that swings more often. Can the extra strikes on the lower damage weapon make up for the damage lost on the WS. Only real testing will show the truth. I must admit, it does look a bit grim for lower delay katanas tho.

How the fuck do you out tp a thf? Blau/Sirocco = 263 delay. Capped Triple merits and AF2 boots = 11% Triple Attack chance. We used to get 5% per hit. 20 hits to get tp, say triple only goes off once (lolz) And that's what, 9 rounds to get tp? That's 2367 delay. That's what, under 5 scythe swings? Which would give you 13-14 tp each? So 70ish tp? And that's severely gimping my triple attack, since I will do it more than once in a round to get tp.

One other thing. One of the largest factors in TP gain is haste. Thf get a few key pieces of haste gear that drk does not. I would have to agree with Eaglestrike. The TP gain potential for a thf before this update was hard to match w/o really low delay katanas + haste gear or a multi-hit weapon. With out a build like that, out TPing a thf with a 2 handed weapon would be a joke. Post-update, It might be harder now.

Edit: spelling and formatting

[Onizuka]

I think you guys are forgeting Maxx DRK was made special for him by SE... All others suck in comparison hell we all know all jobs suck in comparison to the all mighty Maxx loldrk

Sendoh just fucking ban him already.. make a new rule, if your a complete idiot with no sense what so ever you get baned.. So far i only know of one person that fits this descripsion so it shouldn't be a problem...

[Heian]

How the fuck do you out tp a thf? Blau/Sirocco = 263 delay. Capped Triple merits and AF2 boots = 11% Triple Attack chance. We used to get 5% per hit. 20 hits to get tp, say triple only goes off once (lolz) And that's what, 9 rounds to get tp? That's 2367 delay. That's what, under 5 scythe swings? Which would give you 13-14 tp each? So 70ish tp? And that's severely gimping my triple attack, since I will do it more than once in a round to get tp.

Thank you, you beat me to it.

God damnit man its about TP and delay. Yes it is possible as DRK/WAR to come close to a THFs DoT but guess what? No Shadows and you are a giant fucking MP sponge.

[amlaruil]

A couple points...

1) Dual-wield has always lowered your tp return. How do you think nin got 10% tp for 2 hits when the combined delay on their katanas was 227+227=454? TP return was always figured after dual-wield was figured into the delay, but was unaffected by haste. This hasn't changed.

2) The equation for determining TP return from delay used to be
Delay 0 - 180: Fixed at 5%
Delay 180 - 480: (Delay - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5
Delay 480 - 900: (Delay + 480) / 80
All SE has done is to modify this so that the low end doesn't stop at 5%, and the high end gets a little extra. My guess would be it's now something like this:
Delay 0 - 137: Fixed at 4%
Delay 137 - 480: (Delay - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5
Delay 480 - 900: (Delay + 480) / 70

In fact, these numbers fit close to the observed tp returns that have been posted (for example delay 147 getting about 4.3% tp return, delay 580 from e.bow getting about 15.25% tp return rather than 13.25%).

It may even be possible to go below 4%. Just need a nin with full dual-wield gear to go play with a pair of 150 delay daggers.

One of the ramifications of this is that stacking haste gear is better than dual-wield gear now; before nin's natural dual-wield would bring them to 5% tp return, so your tp return wouldn't go down if you used dual-wield or haste gear. Now dual-wield will continue to lower your tp return, whereas haste gear won't.

[epigram]

You seem to be glancing over a few issues though. If you have a drk/war you need to have someone voke for you. Having a war going through ichi recasts instead of just bouncing and doing Ni, is going to lower their damage. You know that would be fine if your damage increase would exceed that of another war/nin, but it doesn't.

A thief can play smart and TA or TA/ws on whoever has low hate and SA for DoT. This means that a thief in TP burn has low burden; they can sub nin and take hits, and have have no reason to hold back damage.

Why does everyone in the PT have to work harder just for you? Just so you can bring up your damage to the point of a war/nin. If you were a mnk/war, yeah I could definitely see a reason to have war/nin's voke a few times since they will bring a lot to the party, but a drk/war?

In an end game TP burn people just want merits fast so they can spend them on whatever job they want. Many of the WHMs, RDMs, and Bards are usually quite bored and have almost no desire to work harder, when they could get the same amount of exp by not inviting a drk/war.

If I had a free slot open, barring friends etc...

Ulg Rng PT:

1st on list: WAR/NIN, NIN/WAR, MNK/(NIN or WAR), SAM/(THF or WAR)
2nd on list: BST/NIN (temperance Axe), THF/NIN, RNG/WAR, DRK/NIN
3rd on list: DRG/(NIN or SAM), PLD/NIN, DRK/SAM
4th on list: RDM/NIN (with relic)
5th on list: DRK/WAR, DRG/WAR, or Break PT

I would invite Corrderio before a drk/war at tp burn.

[Raineer]

Many of the WHMs, RDMs, and Bards are usually quite bored and have almost no desire to work harder

lol, pulling in a chain 80 u.range party creates no desire for me to work any harder. /war no thanks

[rahvin]

Fuck it started with maxx and has spread from what ive seen from other ppl posting on this thread and in others. Who the fuck let the idiots from KI and alla know about this website? Jesus christ, i cant handle all the maxx like idiots which have come to love posting bullshit in here.


/slitwrists




ps DARK STILL SUCKS MAXX LOLDRK

[kareface]

1) Dual-wield has always lowered your tp return. How do you think nin got 10% tp for 2 hits when the combined delay on their katanas was 227+227=454? TP return was always figured after dual-wield was figured into the delay, but was unaffected by haste. This hasn't changed.

Welcome to 3 pages ago?

2) The equation for determining TP return from delay used to be
Delay 0 - 180: Fixed at 5%
Delay 180 - 480: (Delay - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5
Delay 480 - 900: (Delay + 480) / 80
All SE has done is to modify this so that the low end doesn't stop at 5%, and the high end gets a little extra. My guess would be it's now something like this:
Delay 0 - 137: Fixed at 4%
Delay 137 - 480: (Delay - 180) / 256 * 6 + 5
Delay 480 - 900: (Delay + 480) / 70

In fact, these numbers fit close to the observed tp returns that have been posted (for example delay 147 getting about 4.3% tp return, delay 580 from e.bow getting about 15.25% tp return rather than 13.25%).

If there is a TP floor, its so low that no one would want to use the weapons that require hitting it. My comparisons were DW only. I wasn't comparing TP gain to 2h weapons. It will be intresting to see what the highend TP gain looks like now.

One of the ramifications of this is that stacking haste gear is better than dual-wield gear now; before nin's natural dual-wield would bring them to 5% tp return, so your tp return wouldn't go down if you used dual-wield or haste gear. Now dual-wield will continue to lower your tp return, whereas haste gear won't.

Again, most of this was posted a few pages ago.^^;

[Nny]

One other thing. One of the largest factors in TP gain is haste. Thf get a few key pieces of haste gear that drk does not.

What pieces? I count +23% haste for DRK in good gear, and THF can't use the key pieces that DRK can. Haste Belt 10%, closest THF can use is Speed Belt (lol). Ace's Helm 4%, closest THF can use is 3%.

Not that I'm saying that DRK is better. I hardly ever see DRK using a 2h weapon and haste gear though, which I don't really understand. I'd actualy like to see a DRK/DRG using full haste equipment and Rune Chopper, should be pimp. Would be well around 40% haste in gear alone. 8) Would really depend how the "haste cap" for delay is though, if it is 50% then it's all pointless (Which is pretty likely, but it's just a hypothesis over recast timers [Which doesn't prove that 50% haste is the cap, as Fast Cast and un-nerfed Hundred Fists both still capped spells at 50%]). If it's a 100 delay cap, with two marches a DRK could get delay down to ~126 while still getting ~14.5% TP a hit lol.

And I like the update as a G.Axe WAR. If my quick and dirty math is right, I should get 100% TP in about ~20 seconds. Yeah great MNKs/NINs/Ridill is still better, but I've always loved my Gaxe more.

Really, if SE wants to fix 2h weapons, they don't need to do anything with the way damage works. The main thing they need to do is give 2h weapons a subjob like 1h weapons have in /NIN.

/NIN not only is the best deffensive subjob, it's also an extremely powerful offensive subjob, aswell as the best for some jobs and weapons. As is now, 2h weapon users either have to sub NIN and have no offesnive boost, hold back on damage (I.E. not WSsing until somebody else WSs) so as to not be a MP sponge, or just be an MP sponge which means death in a high chain PT. 1h weapons aren't what's broken, it's NIN subjob.

[amlaruil]

Again, most of this was posted a few pages ago.^^;

I didn't see it stated as clearly when I read through, so if nothing else, I gave a good summary. In fact, I still saw people stating false info in the last 2 pages, so someone obviously hadn't gotten it.

[Septimus]

Ulg Rng PT:

1st on list: WAR/NIN, NIN/WAR, MNK/(NIN or WAR), SAM/(THF or WAR)
2nd on list: BST/NIN (temperance Axe), THF/NIN, RNG/WAR, DRK/NIN
3rd on list: DRG/(NIN or SAM), PLD/NIN, DRK/SAM
4th on list: RDM/NIN (with relic)
5th on list: DRK/WAR, DRG/WAR, or Break PT

I would invite Corrderio before a drk/war at tp burn.

Now, the question I ask is why RDM/NIN? Considering a RDM would most likely never actually pull hate against WAR/NIN and what not, why not RDM/DRK or RDM/WAR instead since RDM have a very powerful stoneskin for AoE? From what I have seen, Knights of Round is actually a fairly shitty weapon skill, so wouldn't an accuracy build with Vorpal Blade be better?

I would love to perfect a melee build for my RDM. Before I quit this game I would like my RDM to be a weapon skill whore instead of a refresh whore, even if it is for one day... ;_;

[kareface]

What pieces? I count +23% haste for DRK in good gear, and THF can't use the key pieces that DRK can. Haste Belt 10%, closest THF can use is Speed Belt (lol). Ace's Helm 4%, closest THF can use is 3%.

Ace's Helm, Haste Belt (p.s. if that gives full haste, its more like 12%). I'v never seen a drk with any of those. On top of that using a charge off an item takes time too. You could say the TP charge ring while your at it. Normal exp partys won't have people blowing charges on items like that every time they are up. As for aces helm, I hope to god that went to a sam before a drk. Over 1/2 of your haste is based on a belt that no one in there right mind would use during exp. So your argument is knida flawed.

You must be forgetting the full Homam set. Almost every piece has haste and thf can wear it. That set alone has 12% haste and Enhances Triple Attack Effect. (I would like to note my friend has the full set, he has fun with it in balista) On top of that, speed belt, Panther +1 (like 300 times more common then a Ace's Helm), and they can use the Suppanomimi where 2h weapons would be left with nothing.

[epigram]

I think I would also add in whm/nin before drk/war as well.

I was thinking more about main hand Martial, sub Relic and just Savage Blade.

All together another bard would probably be best.

[Nny]

Haste Belt (p.s. if that gives full haste, its more like 12%).

No, it's not full haste. It's only 10%. And the reason you don't see people using it is because people don't know about it. It's the best belt in the game. Using the enchantment doesn't take long, only a few seconds.

You must be forgetting the full Homam set. Almost every piece has haste and thf can wear it. That set alone has 12% haste and Enhances Triple Attack Effect. (I would like to note my friend has the full set, he has fun with it in balista) On top of that, speed belt, Panther +1 (like 300 times more common then a Ace's Helm), and they can use the Suppanomimi where 2h weapons would be left with nothing.

I've only been at one KV kill and Ace Helm dropped, from what I've heard it's a pretty high drop rate, just a stupid pop condition mob. I've seen several JP DRKs with it aswell.

Everything you listed except Panther, DRK can use too lol. And even if you don't include Ace, Homam helm is 3% haste (Same as Panther+1) and Patroclus's Helm is 2%. Basically every haste piece THF can use, DRK can use and then some.

[Tom Chambers]

Nny was too easy on you.

Sin #1: Saying Haste Belt isn't worth it.

Sin #2: Saying OMG THF can wear Homam, in a discussion about what THF can wear that DRK can't.

Sin #3: Saying it with a straight face.