Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Tonko]

I just Pinecone Bombed a Worm in Gustaberg for 978. So yeah. You want screenies? I can get you one.

[ronin sparthos]

Even with an imperial egg, i felt like i was still missing alot w/pinecone bomb on things that were even match and tough. Does pinecone have a sweet spot like other ranged attacks? (i figured it was like throwing and close to the mob seeing as it misses the least there)

[Tonko]

Yeah, it's just out of melee range for the sweet spot. Misses a LOT around the 20 unit range. I missed that worm I spoke of earlier @ 21 >_>

[VZX]

oops
I forgot Pinecone bomb has 2.25 multiplier

so that's where the base damage comes from
Hmm... but still it's not high enough to get 900
How high was your STR and AGI ,Tonko?

LD: Actually, releena PM'd me in Dreams in Vana'diel a while ago that most melee spells fSTR capped at 22 (except smite of rage?) and all ranged spells have fSTR2 capped at 44. I have these number (22 and 44) written in my doc, but I didn't pay attention to this. (More like since it's just 'as an example', I ignored it to be the fact)

[Delekii]

edit: I did a test on pinecomb bomb for my own interest sake, and came out weird.. according to the wiki, pdif for ranged attack critical = pdifx1.25.
Pinecone Bomb vs Bunny (20%str(105) 20%agi(62), Multiplier+.25 beastial strength), ranged blue magic fstr cap = 44 (is there a question about this? it gave the right results for me)
D37, max theoretical hit at pdif=3 = floor(37+44+floor(floor(105*.2+62*.2)*.83)*2.5)*3= 810, and max theoretical crit = 1012(pdif3.75). All my casted pinecone bombs hit the rabbits for either exactly 810, or 1012, which also backs up something I read a while back that ranged attacks can crit by themselves, unlike melee blue magic - it crit 3 times out of 20 casts

It wouldn't be too hard to get in the 900's with more str/agi than I had. But, Treants aren't strong vs worms, so maybe the 978 was a crit? If it's not a crit your wsc would have had to have been something like 75, pretty high for no-ca str20 agi20.

[Tonko]

I had all my STR gear on, as well as all STR spells set other than Pinecone bomb. I'll go back and get a screenie here in a bit for those who don't believe.

Edit: Gear
http://ffxi.high-velocity.net/pcbe.jpg

Worm
http://ffxi.high-velocity.net/pcbw.jpg

Rabbit
http://ffxi.high-velocity.net/pcbr.jpg

Used the AF hat instead of Sallet to see the effects of the beast correlation on rabbits, just to see if I could push 1k.

Edit 2: Since I was here on /THF decided to see what each single hit non ranged spell capped out @ with this gear (change head to Sallet) + Sneak attack.

Foot Kick: 182
Power Attack: 187
Sprout Smack: 330
Battle Dance: 564
Head Butt: 549
Helldive: 249
Screwdiver: 417
Grand Slam: 255
Smite of Rage: 540
Uppercut: 708
Terror Touch: 498
Mandibular Bite: 752
Sickle Slash: 588
Death Scissors: 984
Dimensional Death: 1329
Body Slam: 558
Spinal Cleave: 1267
Frypan: 732
Will finish up the list later. Off to Salvage.

[Sho]

I had all my STR gear on, as well as all STR spells set other than Pinecone bomb. I'll go back and get a screenie here in a bit for those who don't believe.

Edit: Gear
http://ffxi.high-velocity.net/pcbe.jpg

Worm
http://ffxi.high-velocity.net/pcbw.jpg

Rabbit
http://ffxi.high-velocity.net/pcbr.jpg

Used the AF hat instead of Sallet to see the effects of the beast correlation on rabbits, just to see if I could push 1k.

Edit 2: Since I was here on /THF decided to see what each single hit non ranged spell capped out @ with this gear (change head to Sallet) + Sneak attack.

Foot Kick: 182
Power Attack: 187
Sprout Smack: 330
Battle Dance: 564
Head Butt: 549
Helldive: 249
Screwdiver: 417
Grand Slam: 255
Smite of Rage: 540
Uppercut: 708
Terror Touch: 498
Mandibular Bite: 752
Sickle Slash: 588
Death Scissors: 984
Dimensional Death: 1329
Body Slam: 558
Spinal Cleave: 1267
Frypan: 732
Will finish up the list later. Off to Salvage.

This might be funny, but I think Pinecone Bomb is calculated the same way BST Jug Pets are calculated-- very low "Attack" Rating, but a very high DMG (D) Rank. It would explain why the damage is extremely high on Too Weak and Easy Prey, and then sucks on everything else (much like Jug Pets-- low Attack rating).

Also an aside @ Delekii, you don't really need to pump AGI at all (unless you are low level), a full STR build will cap out dmg on Pinecone Bomb.

[Delekii]

Also an aside @ Delekii, you don't really need to pump AGI at all (unless you are low level), a full STR build will cap out dmg on Pinecone Bomb.

Huh? After you have capped fstr such as in tests like above, agi and str have the same effect on pinecone bomb, both 20% wsc mods. I never used pinecone bomb on xp mobs for damage, but ofcourse str>agi in that case since you aren't ever going to cap fstr in that situation.


I'm a bit confused on your result on rabbits Tonko, you got more than should be possible with those stats..

floor(floor((37+44+floor(floor(128*.2+67*.2)*.83)) *(2.25+.27))*3.75)=1065, you got 1095. Sure you didn't change any other spells/gear when you got that damage?


Edit: worked out where I went wrong, 1095 = non-crit CA Pinecone bomb:
floor(floor((37+44+floor(floor(128*.2+67*.2)*.83)* 2)*(2.25+.27))*3.0)=1095

[Sho]

Also an aside @ Delekii, you don't really need to pump AGI at all (unless you are low level), a full STR build will cap out dmg on Pinecone Bomb.

Huh? After you have capped fstr such as in tests like above, agi and str have the same effect on pinecone bomb, both 20% wsc mods. I never used pinecone bomb on xp mobs for damage, but ofcourse str>agi in that case since you aren't ever going to cap fstr in that situation.


I'm a bit confused on your result on rabbits Tonko, you got more than should be possible with those stats..

floor(floor((37+44+floor(floor(128*.2+67*.2)*.83)) *(2.25+.27))*3.75)=1065, you got 1095. Sure you didn't change any other spells/gear when you got that damage?

Ahh I see what you mean now.

[Suiram]

It seems that the current info is wrong either on the pinecone bomb D cap of 37 or the fSTR2 cap of 44 or both. If you let D + fSTR2 = 84 (impossible with those caps because 37+44 = 81), then the math works out perfectly unless I'm doing it wrong.

WSC = floor(.83*floor(128*.2 + 67*.2)) = floor(.83*39) = 32
84 + 32 = 116
Multiplier is 2.25 according to VZX's info, which would make it 2.52 vs. weak monster with AF1 head.

floor(116 * 2.25) = 261
floor(116 * 2.52) = 292

floor(261 * 3.75) = 978
floor(292 * 3.75) = 1095

So future investigation should be into whether the D=37 cap is correct, or the fSTR2 = 44 cap is correct. Or perhaps D has soft cap that physical potency merits allows you to surpass? Do we know for sure what physical potency does yet, sorry if we do and I'm way off the mark, I'm just throwing ideas out there.

[Delekii]

37 and 44 worked for me in my previous tests up the page a bit, and that was with 2 potency merits. So, I don't think so. Potency is a bit of an enigma at the moment..

[ringthree]

Also an aside @ Delekii, you don't really need to pump AGI at all (unless you are low level), a full STR build will cap out dmg on Pinecone Bomb.

Huh? After you have capped fstr such as in tests like above, agi and str have the same effect on pinecone bomb, both 20% wsc mods. I never used pinecone bomb on xp mobs for damage, but ofcourse str>agi in that case since you aren't ever going to cap fstr in that situation.


I'm a bit confused on your result on rabbits Tonko, you got more than should be possible with those stats..

floor(floor((37+44+floor(floor(128*.2+67*.2)*.83)) *(2.25+.27))*3.75)=1065, you got 1095. Sure you didn't change any other spells/gear when you got that damage?

Tonko mentioned a monster correlation bonus did you include that? Since I have no idea what your math includes.

[Delekii]

I'm retarded. 1095 = double WSC and no crit. Tonko, did you CA all of those numbers you posted? I was thinking they all seemed high, lol.


floor(floor((37+44+floor(floor(128*.2+67*.2)*.83)* 2)*(2.25+.27))*3.0)=1095

That being said, a couple of the numbers you posted up above weren't capped. With those stats subbing Sallet in for AF head, Foot Kick should cap at 189, Power Attack at 219, Mandy Bite at 798, and Spinal Cleave at 1341

[Suiram]

Tonko mentioned a monster correlation bonus did you include that? Since I have no idea what your math includes.

Monster correlation is +.25 to multiplier, +.27 with AF head, you can see he included it in the term that is "2.25 + .27".

[Tonko]

Yes all the numbers above are CAed, sorry, thought that would be obvious.

[LD]

LD: Actually, releena PM'd me in Dreams in Vana'diel a while ago that most melee spells fSTR capped at 22 (except smite of rage?) and all ranged spells have fSTR2 capped at 44. I have these number (22 and 44) written in my doc, but I didn't pay attention to this. (More like since it's just 'as an example', I ignored it to be the fact)

Have you verified that yet? At any rate, assuming it's true, the point is isn't that still high for the base damage? IIrc, Blue Skill translates to base damage the same way that H2H skill does (though base H2H damage doesn't factor into fSTR). So the cap is around 10 more than it would be for a normal weapon.

[Teorem]

Since my post last week, I've been going back and playing with some numbers that I have from soloing to see if the effects of Physical Potency were discernable.

What exactly was the last conclusion you'd made when you were testing against Steelshells at the end of last month?

I don't know if it's a garbage or even useful at all, but with my setup (STR95, INT63, Blue Magic Skill 307, 5 Physical Potency merits) my Head Butt's mode is 92 (313 out of 988 casts, no other spell has anywhere near the same frequency by a magnitude of 10). Since none of the values were using Chain Affinity, using:

damage = floor( ( 17 + SV + floor( 0.83 * floor( STR * 20% + INT * 20%) ) * 1.75 ) * pDIF

I can work it back to:

pDIF = 1.082, if SV is 7 (Imp's VIT is 68-71)
pDIF = 1.057, if SV is 8 (Imp's VIT is 64-67)
pDIF = 1.034, if SV is 9 (Imp's VIT is 60-63)

Is the observation valid that most damage values are going to be around pDIF = 1 on non-trivial things? If so, would the Physical Potency merits be the difference, if things like blue magic skill and accuracy don't factor into pDIF for physical spells?

Or is all of this just trash because it's against a VT imp and I'm looking at it completely wrong?

Edit: "no other spell" => "no other Head Butt damage"

92 damage - 313 / 988
69 damage - 27 / 988
86 damage - 22 / 988

[Delekii]

Your SV should be sword base damage - sword swing mode

[Teorem]

Why, if the blue magic damage isn't supposed to be based on the weapon base damage at all? All of the other comparisons use SV = (playerSTR - enemyVIT)/4 + 1, capped at 22.

If ?=your STR - Opponent VIT is 28, SV is 8 (the value of fSTR).
For the rest of the value, whenever ?+4 -> SV+1.
Example: if ?=84 -> SV is capped at 22?unconfirmed)

If I use SV = (sword base damage - sword damage mode), then it would be SV = (44 - 51) = -7 or (41-51) = -10, which doesn't make sense.

[Tonko]

If my numbers above would help, I have 8 BLU skill, 5 physical potency, 0 enchainment.