Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Delekii]

It 100% does not affect base damage.

Data is back (quite) a few pages to suggest that it does not affect pdif either.

The most likely scenario at the moment is that it affects accuracy, but there is very little proof of that either, so far.

So you just basically said PP does [nothing] at all. I'm very doubtful that it affects spell accuracy, it would somewhat defeat the purpose of weapon skill level -> accuracy ratio. Mind if you link me to the pages? (I'm still not convinced it affects accuracy, I've had this conversation come up before). Also, has these tests been done using Disseverment and Cannonball? For those two spells, one could debate that the base dmg cap is not 69, based on how they work.

If you say it [PP] doesn't affect damage, then it either affects Accuracy, or Critical Hit. It's still uncertain (and highly accepted as impossible without a job ability granting critical hits) that spells can even *crit*, so you are mainly looking at Acc; a scenario I still look down on. If you do say it affects Critical Hit, we can all nip this "Blue Magic Spells don't crit" dealy in the bud. Maybe we should ask SE sometime, see what it really does.

(As for the base dmg, you can get 71, if you came across a Ksi Sash.)

P.S. To fix what I said up top, I meant to add Monster Correlation.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9013&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=3000 near the bottom of the page

We dont know the base damage "cap" on those spells yet, because we cant get blue magic high enough to test it. What we do know is that while pdif cap was still 3.0, no spell past level 60 had more than 69 base damage (assumedly 71 with ksi sash, I had forgotten about that), and no spell below level 60 achieved higher than it's expected base damage cap, regardless of potency merits existing or not. Not sure how else you would expect potency to affect base damage, but if you have another theory please mention it since at the moment it is enigmatic. Base damage was very easily tested pre-pdif changes, since it was easy to cap pdif at 3.0 and control wsc and fstr.

The pdif tests were done i _think_ only lowish level spells (up to grand slam if I remember correctly). The test vry and I did on that page I linked was only with headbutt, but I'm not sure how potency could change the pdif on one spell so as to be worth using, and on another so as to be all but useless if it even effects it at all. Basically, we found on that test that for headbutt, if potency merits do affect pdif, they do it by such a miniscule amount that it would never be worth meriting.

When I said there was very little evidence to support a theory of accuracy, there is certainly more (from the test vry and I did) to support accuracy than there is to support pdif. I basically ignored the possibility of it having something to do with crit since apart from ranged spells, blue magic cant crit without CA on TP>Crit or SA.

[Sho]

it would somewhat defeat the purpose of weapon skill level -> accuracy ratio.

Not really. Lets assume it's accuracy. Your acc for spells will be higher than your sword accuracy. People who spam multi-hit spells would like this for merit and you could land more spells on the more evasive HNM. Switch out acc gear for more stat mods? You'll feel safer doing it now...assuming it's acc, of course. I bet it'd take a while to test.

Well, I could see it that way-- I noticed higher Disseverment numbers as I increased PP merits (consistant 4-5 hits landing as opposed to 2-4? perhaps). It would still need to be determined what really got increased, as it could very well be any of the three boosts mentioned. If there's that assurance that it's not a damage increase (higher level spells tested VERY well, then I'd rather lean towards Crit-Hits moreso than Acc.

LD, you know by now /THF @ HNM defeats the purpose of needing any Acc of any kind. I agree on the time it would take to test, why I suggested someone ask SE upfront (like what they did with the whole CHR =/= Enmity dealy).

Edit: @ Dele: Lol I remember replying to those tests. The numbers do still seem small from when you mentioned it back then (and you leaned towards damage as well, if I re-read it right, lol). I still think Vertical Cleave, Cannonball, and Disseverment needs to all be retested, before a conclusion is made (esp now that SE may or may not have changed the pdif for Physical Blue Magic.)

[LD]

I simply explained the possible reasoning behind it, not necessarily its practical application. ;x

[Sho]

I simply explained the possible reasoning behind it, not necessarily its practical application. ;x

Rawr! I just hate not knowing what PP actually does-- this topic has come up with alot of my friends for a very long while, lol.

[Delekii]

I lean toward accuracy myself, though I wont be putting any more merits into it until I know better what it does - for me and my observations till now, CA timer does me better on HNM (so I can get 2 CASA per wyrm landing, for example )

[Sho]

I lean toward accuracy myself, though I wont be putting any more merits into it until I know better what it does - for me and my observations till now, CA timer does me better on HNM (so I can get 2 CASA per wyrm landing, for example )

To be totally honest, I've been thinking on how I could redo my own merits. CA timer for one, seems to be alot more viable to me, now with the meritable TP Bonus. :3 Also Monster Correlation... we can all be safe to say we don't have that fully maxed (or even merited for most). Would be nice, but I'd rather remove Magical Acc for it (when I get some Nashira to replace the lost M-acc). I really think Monster Correlation will become more and more a viable choice, when more spells are released to us-- don't need to tell you how useless it is, when the only good spells one can use are all from Beastmen families.

[Repairs]

One semi-quick way we could see if physical potency effects damage output, would be to compare parses of fren rip/Disev on Imp's in Caed mire - no potency vs full potency?


Edit ** these pics below are full potency merits numbers, if anyone can use them... it is not a compasion of no merits vs. full merits.

[attachment=2:61cb9]CA Disev.jpg[/attachment:61cb9]
[attachment=0:61cb9]NoCA Disev.jpg[/attachment:61cb9]
[attachment=1:61cb9]Fren Rip.jpg[/attachment:61cb9]

[VZX]

One semi-quick way we could see if physical potency effects damage output, would be to compare parses of fren rip/Disev on Imp's in Caed mire - no potency vs full potency?

I don't see the merit of it when you can't "lock" the other variables and play with the variables you want.

[Repairs]

Ideally, you would have someone with similar stat's, etc. which would remove most of the variables. I.e. if 2 people with same stat's were killing the same mobs, with the spells, and the only difference is physical potency.

It also seemed like some people were posting that physical potency did nothing in terms of damage, and maybe it was accuracy, etc... so even if the some of the variables were off, but the parses showed major damage differences, it would give reason to believe that it does effect damage (just in a different way then what has been tested). If the swtich from pallas to alky was noticable, I would hope that the merits 0 to 5 would also be noticable.

We do not know the exact formula of these formulas, it's mostly speculation (with some fact backing it up). So, if we eliminate all the different possiblities it would help in the long run. Wild ideas: potency only effects during CA, or only effects damage output if level correction > 1.

[fantasticdan]

Accuracy, mob level difference, etc. would make testing on imps too random, even if all relevant stats were the same.

[VZX]

Ideally, you would have someone with similar stat's, etc. which would remove most of the variables. I.e. if 2 people with same stat's were killing the same mobs, with the spells, and the only difference is physical potency.

That was me and Dele did. Same WSC, Same BLU base, slightly higher blue magic skill on my side.

The other difference only 2 vs 5 PP

Difference? I don't quite remember, but 1-2 lower min on 70ish damage headbutt. I wouldn't bother with trying so hard proving there is atk+ increase.

[Repairs]

Accuracy, mob level difference, etc. would make testing on imps too random, even if all relevant stats were the same.

If you have basically the same equip stats, your accuracy would be very similar if not the same. Mob level difference is really easy to match. There are only 2 different level of imps by Khim, caedave mire - so things would not be random.
Edit* I like the idea of testing on imps because this is something Blu's can do, that accomplishes more then just testing. I think it would be easier/convenient for some people to contribute to the knowledge of blu spells when they can gain exp/merits while testing (as apposed to spending 3hrs hacking away a level 1 mobs...)

If we didn't loose your merits when you decrease a merit category - I would just eliminate my potency merits, go solo and parse my spells again and that would prove/disapprove any damage.

Ideally, you would have someone with similar stat's, etc. which would remove most of the variables. I.e. if 2 people with same stat's were killing the same mobs, with the spells, and the only difference is physical potency.

That was me and Dele did. Same WSC, Same BLU base, slightly higher blue magic skill on my side.

The other difference only 2 vs 5 PP

Difference? I don't quite remember, but 1-2 lower min on 70ish damage headbutt. I wouldn't bother with trying so hard proving there is atk+ increase.

I agree, I don't think "Potency" is the same as an "attack" boost. But, I do think it does help the damage - maybe only when CA or it only helps when "D" is not capped, or, or, or... I just have a hard time believing that they would title something "potency" when all it does is add accuracy. Then again... it could be just a typo...

It 100% does not affect base damage.

Data is back (quite) a few pages to suggest that it does not affect pdif either.

The most likely scenario at the moment is that it affects accuracy, but there is very little proof of that either, so far.

So you just basically said PP does [nothing] at all. I'm very doubtful that it affects spell accuracy, it would somewhat defeat the purpose of weapon skill level -> accuracy ratio. Mind if you link me to the pages? (I'm still not convinced it affects accuracy, I've had this conversation come up before). Also, has these tests been done using Disseverment and Cannonball? For those two spells, one could debate that the base dmg cap is not 69, based on how they work.

If you say it [PP] doesn't affect damage, then it either affects Accuracy, or Critical Hit. It's still uncertain (and highly accepted as impossible without a job ability granting critical hits) that spells can even *crit*, so you are mainly looking at Acc; a scenario I still look down on. If you do say it affects Critical Hit, we can all nip this "Blue Magic Spells don't crit" dealy in the bud. Maybe we should ask SE sometime, see what it really does.

(As for the base dmg, you can get 71, if you came across a Ksi Sash.)

P.S. To fix what I said up top, I meant to add Monster Correlation.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9013&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=3000 near the bottom of the page

We dont know the base damage "cap" on those spells yet, because we cant get blue magic high enough to test it. What we do know is that while pdif cap was still 3.0, no spell past level 60 had more than 69 base damage (assumedly 71 with ksi sash, I had forgotten about that), and no spell below level 60 achieved higher than it's expected base damage cap, regardless of potency merits existing or not. Not sure how else you would expect potency to affect base damage, but if you have another theory please mention it since at the moment it is enigmatic. Base damage was very easily tested pre-pdif changes, since it was easy to cap pdif at 3.0 and control wsc and fstr.

The pdif tests were done i _think_ only lowish level spells (up to grand slam if I remember correctly). The test vry and I did on that page I linked was only with headbutt, but I'm not sure how potency could change the pdif on one spell so as to be worth using, and on another so as to be all but useless if it even effects it at all. Basically, we found on that test that for headbutt, if potency merits do affect pdif, they do it by such a miniscule amount that it would never be worth meriting.

When I said there was very little evidence to support a theory of accuracy, there is certainly more (from the test vry and I did) to support accuracy than there is to support pdif. I basically ignored the possibility of it having something to do with crit since apart from ranged spells, blue magic cant crit without CA on TP>Crit or SA.

,

"no spell past level 60 had more than 69 base damage " where are the tests to prove this again? I remember tring to test the exact formula of various spells and no one could help. The results never matched the "known" formulas, so I'm guessing this is speculation?

[VZX]

Dele is trying to say : "With current limitation on merit/gear, with the exception of Ksi sash under salvage/assault, there is no physical spell that has base damage higher than 69"

[Delekii]

I didn't post numbers proving the 69 base damage constant because at the time it was an incredibly easy thing to test - now I really wish I had. I'm not sure where you got the idea that it was difficult to test, because at the time, the formula was:
SA Spell max damage = (Base+WSC+fSTR)*pDIF
where everything but base was controllable. I guess all I can do is ask you to take my word that I tested every spell over 60, and saw a consistent 69 base damage from those tests. All I can do now is say that the max damage you will see will imply a base damage of something _near_ to 69, because pdif varies a lot around 3-3.15, and possibly higher.

I agree, I don't think "Potency" is the same as an "attack" boost. But, I do think it does help the damage - maybe only when CA or it only helps when "D" is not capped, or, or, or... I just have a hard time believing that they would title something "potency" when all it does is add accuracy. Then again... it could be just a typo...

I would agree with you, typically, but the testing made me think otherwise. It is possible that it is during chain affinity only, but it really seems like a stretch since they added enchainment too. It cant increase base damage on spells that aren't yet capped unless it doesn't work on low level mobs, or I would have seen higher base damage on atleast some of those spells (for example, vertical cleave would have returned 69+x base damage, with x being the new damage after merits.

[Repairs]

My rational for it not being easy was more in terms of the entire formula, but semi-applies to this situation. Back in the day, no one would show where my errors were in my testing on level 1 mobs and the exact formula used. VZX (and others) helped a lot at the time, but also, at that time his end result was "its still a bit wrong", which made me think that if the formula isn't working out as expected, then maybe its not the proper formula for blu spells. If it's not the exact formula then anything being tested couldn't exactly prove/disprove too much....

Which now leads to: if the formula isn't correct then maybe not all your variables were under control... or could be just that multi-hit spells work differently, or we missed something last time, or, or, or...

I personally like seeing all the numbers people have regarding stuff like this (cap, potency, etc.). It's like a repository of tests, that you can go back too and see if SE has changed them or see how people tested to get new idea's for test's I would like to do, etc, etc.

Think this post has most of the data regarding Fren Rip on level 1 worms (pg 90):
"So... if the variance’s are to be explained by blu skill acting like PDIF then the formula would follow the same as weapon skills? Can we not figure it out against level 1 worms? We know max damage is 350 (174 was min); for 76str, 71dex, 292 skill. So:

WeaponSkills:
Damage = Base Damage x pDIF
Base Damage = floor( (D + fSTR + WSC) x fTP)

So, Blu Physical:

Damage = D Value * pDIF?
D Value=[[D+SV+WS Correction]×Multiplier]
Where SV = fSTR; WS Correction= WSC; and Multiplier=fTP

Some what close?

* D=(BLU Skill x.11)x2 + 3
= 32.12 *2 + 3
= 67.24

* dSTR = your STR - monster V
=dSTR = 76 – 5 = 71
=fSTR can be approximated by (dSTR+4)/4
=fSTR = (71+4)/4
=fSTR = 18.75

* WSC – [0.83*[STR*.20 + DEX *.20]])
= .83 * (76*.2 + 71*.2)
= .83 * (15.2 + 14.2)
= .83 * (29.4)
= 24.402

* TP Modifier (Base_Damage*348/256) since only first hit land?
= (67.24+18.75+24.402) * (348/256)
= 110.392 * 1.3593..
= 150.064125
= 150

Base Damage = 150

So, 350 = 150 * pDIF(max)?
PDIF(max) = 2.33333?

174 = 150 * pDIF(min)
pDIF(min) = 1.16"

YZX:
"your base damage = 148 and 109 (67 + 18+ 24)*348/256 and (67 + 18+ 24)*1.00

though, it's a bit weird why pDIF max is 2.37... it's still a bit wrong.. I've seen 2.39, but not 2.37"

[Delekii]

The Weaponskill formula produced the right result 100% of the time while using sneak attack to garuntee 3.0pdif. And that is over the course of many hundreds of tests.

[Repairs]

I guess there are too many variables without SA. If I decide to go back and test things I guess that's the only solution.

If you have any of your results I would love to see them. I could also use your tests and results; and do other stat comparisons.

[Tonko]

so, I got my Morrigan's Robe, and decided to test for damage.
BLU/THF, went out to North Gustaberg, and picked on some Bees.

Tried a low level spell first: Power Attack
AFBody: 198
Robe: 208

Just as I expected.

Then I tried a high level spell: Vertical Cleave
AFBody: 1617
Robe: 1658

I expected the BLU skill to be of more benefit over the robe's 8 STR.

Tried some other spells
Ram Charge
AFBody: 633
Robe: 658

Why is the AF Body not giving a better damage result? I thought Blue skill boosted the base damage of spells up to a certain point?

[JoOeetheplatypuS]

so, I got my Morrigan's Robe, and decided to test for damage.
BLU/THF, went out to North Gustaberg, and picked on some Bees.

Tried a low level spell first: Power Attack
AFBody: 198
Robe: 208

Just as I expected.

Then I tried a high level spell: Vertical Cleave
AFBody: 1617
Robe: 1658

I expected the BLU skill to be of more benefit over the robe's 8 STR.

Tried some other spells
Ram Charge
AFBody: 633
Robe: 658

Why is the AF Body not giving a better damage result? I thought Blue skill boosted the base damage of spells up to a certain point?

STR is a modifier for the WSes you tested AND it adds DMG value. Blue magic adds damage at a 2/9 per blue magic skill point iirc and STR's added damage is more like (STR-VIT)/2 + A number that decreases as STR gets higher. Here's a link for damage added by STR values: http://www1.freewebs.com/vzx-01/fstr2.htm .

So that 5 STR over AF body is about 1 DMG less, but with the WS mods the STR does more.

I've been saying that this piece is great for BLU for quite a while. Best Damage, good Acc, and refresh. All in one.

[VZX]

so, I got my Morrigan's Robe, and decided to test for damage.
BLU/THF, went out to North Gustaberg, and picked on some Bees.

Tried a low level spell first: Power Attack
AFBody: 198
Robe: 208

Just as I expected.

Then I tried a high level spell: Vertical Cleave
AFBody: 1617
Robe: 1658

I expected the BLU skill to be of more benefit over the robe's 8 STR.

Tried some other spells
Ram Charge
AFBody: 633
Robe: 658

Why is the AF Body not giving a better damage result? I thought Blue skill boosted the base damage of spells up to a certain point?

You tried it once per spell?