Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[LD]

You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Yes, it's usefulness is diminished by the recast timer, but it's far from useless. It's great for ENMS, KSNM, missions, and many short nm fights or zerg type things where you wouldn't be able to use it more than once anyway, even if the recast time was halved.

Some examples: refuelingaga for low man BC battle like ODS, saline coat-aga in preparation for big magic damage, zephyr mantle-aga on shadowless dds before some zerg fights. Diffusion exviuation is also crazy if you want to tank shit, seems to be more hate than anything else in the game?...

No diffusion isn't game breakingly amazing, but it's worth the initial unlock if you do anything besides solo or meripo on blu. Not like the other blu tier 2 merits are that great anyway, aside from at least unlocking convergence.

Except for possibly Exuviationga, you're grasping at straws. ODS...Really? I could evasion tank that, ffs. Zephyr mantle when every player has Seigan, Utsu, or blink? Saline coat is good, but for anything that matters, do you think you'll be put in the tank PT to give a diminishing MDef boost? Diffusion will not make BLU any more of a buffer than Diamondhide already has and it has everything to do with its horrible recast. One arguably unique buff every 15-20 minutes does not make you a buffer. For all of the small stuff, you'll do just as well without it as you will invariably have a job that provides whatever you need since every job that is able to refresh gives roughly the same bonuses.

Small, easy events mean nothing in the great scheme of things. If it did, PUP wouldn't be so unpopular. Such things are generally lax, to the point where you wont miss a lot of what you're touting as Diffusion's great boons. Don't get me wrong, many of the buffs, namely Cocoon, are very powerful and useful, but the time between casting them on the entire PT, coupled with their generally short durations, marginalizes them horribly, even for short events.

What is your main purpose in a PT? That is the crux of the argument. The answer is a simple and emphatic 'Damage Dealer.' You can heal, you can tank, but all told, damage is all anyone is going to really want or need a BLU for. You are eclipsed by other jobs in both respects (even in DD frankly, but at least there you have a niche), but not to the point that you are unable to perform them reliably. As a buffer, you only really have Diamondhide. The recast is short enough that it can be used regularly and as needed, but one spell doesn't make you a buffer. Then we come to Diffusion. Rahter than open up a new role for BLU, it allows you to make one of your buffs a -ga 3-4 times an hour. You are not going to be asked to buff. Now, you merit it anyway to fool around. Congratulations, you're still buffing 3-4 times an hour. If you're doing anything difficult or important, it's impossible to rely on such a thing. Anything that is not difficult or important, it's a toy, you do not need it. You are buffing infrequently with spells that have relatively short durations, the longest of which are supplied more reliably by more common sourses. You may as well call a MNK with Mantra a buffer, and even that has a 10 minute recast and a truly unique effect (with a 3 minute duration. Not only can it be used more regularly, it has a better recast/duration ratio; 30% vs. 10-25%. At max upgrade, Refueling and Zephyr Mantle can be as high at 33.3%, but the it's only the two and the low end is still less efficient). Also, due to the nature of Kraken-Eaters, the 3 minute duration is actually a fair amount of time for added damage. The reason Exuviationga has some merit (sorry) is because it supplements a role BLU can actually do, Tank. A hate spike that (some say inordinately) great along with the utility of curing a bit and erasing an enfeeble makes it rather valuable, but you’re not a buffer. You’re a job with buffs that are mostly used only on itself.

So, actually, I have a very clear idea of what I'm talking about, but I will allow you your dumbass opinion.


Diffusion doesn't need a 5 minute base duration, it needs to be like Feint, a 10 minute base durration with -2 minutes per upgrade. So that's 2 minutes if they up the max to 5. %D
That way, even Cocoon could be used semi-regularly, but BLU still wouldn't be able to do hastega as well as SMN. A person who only put a few merits into it could get some use out of it (at base, Refueling duration would amount to 50% of the recast) and a person could be a full on buffer if they wanted to.

[fantasticdan]

All I said was that it wasn't USELESS or JUST A NOVELTY as you put it, where did I say it would make blu a great buffer? Stop looking for an argument that isn't there. But yes, refueling-aga for 3 man ODS is pretty nice, I think anyway. And yes, I have put myself in the tank pt and used diffusion saline coat on things like proto-ultima, thou mostly in pt for magus roll and diamond hide, not that you need to be in tank pt for it to be useful. Can be nice to ensure you party survives an astral slow in limbus, and other things like that.

[LD]

You don't seem to understand. I wasn't saying you were saying it would make it a buffer, I was saying it's useless because it doesn't. A BLU tanking in the first place is simply a novelty (and God knows half the jobs in the game can tank a little bit). Thus, by extension, Diffusion is just a novelty. Since it doesn't add anything meaningful (or more accurately, since it does add something meaningful, but not for a meaningful amount of time), it is worthless. You'll get more use out of Enchainment. Erasega is nice, but WHM can do it more often and as was stated earlier, you don't really want the hate spike if you're just using it to remove statuses.
It's a lot like Raptor Mazurka, if you're using it for the hate and not what it was designed to do, there's probably something wrong (though it is admittedly not as broken as all that).

[fantasticdan]

You'll get more use out of Enchainment.

You seriously have no idea. If you don't play blu, you should get the fuck out.

But to explain, maxing out enchainment while not at least unlocking diffusion makes no sense. That last upgrade only gets you 10 TP bonus, which only is really useful for cannonball and even there the TP bonus has an immeasurably small effect(should have an effect on vertical cleave judging by the description, but TP seems to be nothing for this spell, I can't get any difference between 0 TP and 300TP CASA VC). For day to day blu use; limbus, assault, campaign, merit party, etc you very rarely even use cannonball. Personally I don't do HNM, so I only use it on sky gods and some jailers, and even than I seem to get more use out of vertical cleave. Where as you can use diffusion to give some type of small benefit in any party scenario.

[Judai]

Why in the fuck are you trying to make such a big deal out if a shitty merit? Diffision is absolute shit other then once in a blue moon. All of BLU's Cat2s pretty much suck though.

[Tomino]

question to BLUs : in a standard situation versus an average mob (merit, limbus, campaign, bcnm) , how much do you cast?
for sure, BLU has a lot of nice spells to use and myself i like to use Head Butt 3-4 times, or toss flash-ga, an additional Frypan or even some Eva- debuff. but all these spells still have a casting time that makes me lose DoT damage on sword and slows my TP build.
a friend of mine plays BLU simply getting to 100% TP, doing Distortion and tossing some extra damage spell (Frenetic, Hysteric) here and there. it's a much more straight playstyle, so i was wondering which one proved to more useful in terms of usefulness/damage output

[LD]

So you admit to Diffusion only giving small benefits?

The fact of the matter is by virtue of it being usable every 2 minutes for a BLU's most used type of spell, Enchainment is more useful. Is it good? I don't think so, but that's the plain fact of the matter. BLU was given shitty G2s, but Diffusion is still the worst one, because it has the fewest applications for the average BLU.

Since no Diffusion spell is based on TP, I don't see how it and Enchainment couldn't do without each other. Diffusion only makes self-buffs -ga, so you, personally, are getting no additional bonuses from using it. So, if you'll excuse me, Do You know what you are talking about?

Personally, I'm just going to max Assimilation and then probably Convergence, since nuking has its uses. I got a fair amount of AN fighting a Shadowfang void the other day, I wouldn't have done much damage without Mind Blast (and the par proc rate was impressive.) Granted, it's not the same as an exp mob, but Convergance is helping with something most people are prone to do more often, i.e. use a nuke or breath spell, be it in limbus, sea, HMN, or Campaign.

Saying I don't know what I'm talking about doesn't really help your point. Even if I didn't play BLU, that would be a complete non-issue, I could still have a decent idea of what affects what. I haven't said anything that doesn't follow a certain logic, it just seems our values are very different. I'm considering the cost-benefit ratio and you think one occasional benefit over a long period of time makes up for everything. It might if BLU buffs were a bit more unique, but none of them are so powerful to cause any significant change in a well built and executed party.

[LeifofKujata]

if you spam spells to the point you have to rest frequently, you arent being efficient
if you don't cast spells to the point you are almost always above 97%MP, you arent being very efficient(in most situations)

find some middle ground that works for your specific gear/skill

[LD]

if you spam spells to the point you have to rest frequently, you arent being efficient
if you don't cast spells to the point you are almost always above 97%MP, you arent being very efficient(in most situations)

find some middle ground that works for your specific gear/skill

Yea, big spells are fun, but even with a refresher, you want to use them sparingly. You always want to use more MP-effecient spells the lower you go in percentages. I like Mandible Bite, it doesn't take many set points and it does good damage for its MP cost.

[Maxxthepenguin]

question to BLUs : in a standard situation versus an average mob (merit, limbus, campaign, bcnm) , how much do you cast?
for sure, BLU has a lot of nice spells to use and myself i like to use Head Butt 3-4 times, or toss flash-ga, an additional Frypan or even some Eva- debuff. but all these spells still have a casting time that makes me lose DoT damage on sword and slows my TP build.
a friend of mine plays BLU simply getting to 100% TP, doing Distortion and tossing some extra damage spell (Frenetic, Hysteric) here and there. it's a much more straight playstyle, so i was wondering which one proved to more useful in terms of usefulness/damage output

If it's a dangerous mob I spam head butt regardless of MP, but generally I stick to just using Frip and Dissev paced at about one every 30 seconds if I need to keep MP up, I don't bother with Barrage since it seems more inefficient than the others for me on both MP cost and set point cost, usually I don't want to cast damage spells more often than the frip/dissev cooldowns anyways. Possibly more if the mob needs to die FAST of course or if I'm doing campaign and trying to pump out damage before other people kill the mob. Don't worry about the DoT of swords, almost every spell you cast has a higher amount of DoT (if you consider damage/cast time DoT). Obviously I always keep Auto-Refresh and Conserve MP set, they help a lot. If I get a seveneyes I might play with it offhand if conserving MP is paramount importance. Also, never forget MP Drainkiss and Magic Hammer. The hammer requires a MND/MAB setup but vs things like imps it is very worth it. I also use it in campaign along with the MP Drainkiss, together they keep my MP up pretty high.

[Tomino]

i forgot to mention i wasnt worried on MP issues, but more about overall performances as a party member.
what leaves me doubtful is :
is the best to spend time/mp with things like FRoar, flash-ga, stonesking-ga, Infrasonics and Stuns
OR
to simply focus on rotating 2 spells like Diss+FRip?
i'm speaking more of a limbus/dynamis/standard event situation than merit/campaign this time.

[Nirokun!]

i think for any event where a mob is being melee'd, FRoar is amazing. Nice casttime, recasttime, accuracy, mpcost, and effect, roar is a spell i love :D

for dyna and stuff where things die so fast and i question the point of the MP, i generally wait for harder (boss, high-HP mobs, etc) mobs to use roar, or where 2 or more weaker mobs have been clustered together to justify casting FRoar

[Kaslo]

Really we should just stop argueing about Diffusion. Arguements never end on BG because we are all stubborn and loyal to our own beliefs

[Delekii]

People who tank on BLU love diffusion - it is invaluable.

People who don't either use it incredibly sporadically, or find it useless.

Just because you don't tank on BLU doesn't mean others don't. Fuck off with your wanting diffusion hate nerfed so as to be able to increase your use of diffusion, it is a massive boon to the ability of BLU to effectively tank.

Personally, I'm just going to max Assimilation and then probably Convergence, since nuking has its uses. I got a fair amount of AN fighting a Shadowfang void the other day, I wouldn't have done much damage without Mind Blast (and the par proc rate was impressive.) Granted, it's not the same as an exp mob, but Convergance is helping with something most people are prone to do more often, i.e. use a nuke or breath spell, be it in limbus, sea, HMN, or Campaign.

The same argument you are making about diffusion can be made about convergence. I have never, ever nuked something important on my BLU - convergence is practically useless to me. 5-15mab on one magic hammer out of 4, perhaps, but beyond that, useless. Even when you CAN get frequent use out of convergence, it's actual effect is mediocre in comparison with the effect of diffusion. Diffusion is useable once every 15-20 minutes (lets say 20 for arguments sake), and can increase the relative effectiveness of the spell used by up to 600%. Diffusion is useable once every 10 minutes, and MIGHT increase effectiveness by 15%. Of course, they are used for completely different circumstances, but in a comparison of the relative power of each ability, diffusion shits all over convergence. You could have got your high score from shadowfang without convergence just fine - you can still nuke without it (and it is only one nuke every 10 minutes, after all).

BLU was not given shitty G2 merits. They were given situationally fucking awesome merits, that don't compare to some of the other job's better G2 merits, but are a fuckload better than a lot of others.

[Sho]

I still think to this day Diffusion should be a 5 min recast initially. Not putting in merits for it until they make it so. That or SE increasing the total limit on Tier 2 merits.

5 minute recast on diffusion = incredibly broken

Sounds good, lol. :rocl:

Sorry you don't find Convergence as effective, Delekii. I on the other hand, use it every single day, be it only stacked on top of Actinic Burst for daily soloing in Mire/Campaign/Besieged, or nuking in Nyzul/Limbus or random NMs; it's always being used over here. Glad I put merits into it way back when, and I hope it continues to give my own BLU reasons to keep it's uses up.

And the thought about 5 minutes on Diffusion recast is broken, but god damn, a 20 min recast as it is just plain shitty, and there's nothing one can say about it can make up for that-- 10 mins on that shit at least.

[FinalJustice]

And the thought about 5 minutes on Diffusion recast is broken, but god damn, a 20 min recast as it is just plain shitty, and there's nothing one can say about it can make up for that-- 10 mins on that shit at least.

And even at a 10 min timer, all they would need to do is increase the duration of blu buffs, and it would be awesome.

People who tank on BLU love diffusion - it is invaluable.

Blu tanking is a novelty, at best. A lower Diffusion, and longer buff duration would benefit the party or alliance FAR greater then any amount of blu tanking will do.

[Suiram]

I rather disagree with both sides at the moment, for the following reasons. To say that BLU tanking is a novelty is woefully uninformed, a BLU can tank basically anything that you might otherwise want to use a PLD/NIN or a NIN/DRK for, with the exception of Fafnir/Nidhogg because of the AoE spells you wouldn't be able to use with Darters around, and do it very well, not in an "any job with /nin can quote-unquote tank" way. On the other hand you don't really need diffusion to do it, though it is a nice reserve for the start of a fight, if you die, or if you get your hate roared. You do need the hate generated from non-diffusioned exuviation, however, which is why it would be stupid to nerf it as a tradeoff for a lower-timed diffusion as people are suggesting, particularly since the only buffs that would last even half of a 5min recast are metallic body--half as effective as the already AoE Diamonhide, Refueling--2/3 the haste from a WHM or RDM, and warm-up--okay, Acc/Evasion +10 for 3 minutes out of every 5, not complete shit.

Not that we even get to choose to make diffusion better if we want to or not, or what we'd have to give up for SE to do it. Just from a purely hypothetical standpoint, asking for less hate from exuviation in exchange for shorter diffusion recast shows that you don't fully understand what the job is already capable of.

[FinalJustice]

asking for less hate from exuviation in exchange for shorter diffusion recast shows that you don't fully understand what the job is already capable of.

There isnt even a justification for that spell in its current form to generate that kind of hate to begin with. And maybe SE has never thought of the hate issue from it, as Diff Exu is not "abused" or overly used at this point. Like Mazurka, they can easily 'adjust" its hate when it comes into play and more ppl start using it. Because bottom line is, youre using an exploit to rely on what you are doing. Youre using something for something it wasnt designed to do. The only reason it genrates that kind of hate, is because Eux already generated a WEIRD amount of hate for the effects it did. But it had such a long recast that the hate was NEVER an issue.

[Suiram]

I don't see how you can make that claim. It's not like spells/abilities get their enmity values from the void, someone somewhere had to program them in that way. Do you think that they didn't notice they were giving it twice the hate of any other BLU buff/debuff? And really there's not anything wrong with giving another job the option of tanking well. If anything it's the perfect amount of hate, because it's enough to open another facet of what was already intended to be a multi-faceted job, but not so much that it ever is a problem when you use it casually for the erase effect, outside of perhaps besieged.

Edit: By the way, I'm only talking about standard Exuviation here. I wouldn't mind if they made it non-diffusable, or made the hate from a 6-person exuviation equal to a 1-person, as I've said you don't need diffusion to be an effective tank. I would be disappointed if they nerfed its normal hate though, and if they did in conjunction with lowering diffusion's recast that would be a real joke.

[FinalJustice]

Diffusion was added after the fact, and SE has not adjusted anything on blu since. Didnt think they would notice? There are tons of things that SE does that they don't notice until players point them out to them. Someone somewhere clearly designed Mazurka to generate the hate it did, and later have it adjusted the more popular it became. Sure this is an opinion, but since you can't seem to "see how I can make that claim". If you dont think a single action that generates more hate then the best equipped Tank, that only erases one debuff, and restores 80 hp, is wrong, then something is wrong with you.