Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Suiram]

Even if someone didn't notice until now, there's a very big difference between BRD, which was clearly intended to be used as a support-only job, and BLU, which pretty clearly was intended to be far more versatile, so I'd hope they would keep that in mind and not nerf it in that event. However, even if it was a mistake, I don't see how any BLU could *want* them to correct it; that's the main thing I object to.

And if you didn't see in my last post, I corrected it at the end to make it clear I'm only talking about Exuviation here, not necessarily the stacking of it with diffusion.

[LD]

'Can' is not the same as 'will' or 'should'.

BLU tanking is a novelty because any job that's not NIN or PLD tanking anything important is a novelty, by definition and figurative implication. Even jobs that are notably good at it, like WAR & MNK, are never on par with those jobs.

I'm going to just say this for the record, if you're using Exuviationga for the hate, there's something wrong. Though it has less to do with Diffusion and more to do with the spell itself. There's no reason for the spell to create that much of a hate spike with only an erase effect and ~80 healing. If it had the same effect as the mob version, maybe, but even then, most of the hate should be coming from the number of statuses cured and HP healed, not the ability itself. Anyway, if you admit you don't need Diffusion, why would it matter if they fixed it and Exuviation to be more support friendly? Really, if BLU were an actual tank, it would have been nerfed just like NIN/BRD, but it's not, so you still have your unneeded invincible-level hate.

Delekii, I actually realize that Convergence's usefulness is dubious in the grand scheme of things (and for pretty much the same reasons as Diffusion), but I maintain that out of BLU's G2s, it is still one of the more useful and much more useful than Diffusion, which has already been repeatedly attested to. It's usable for (apparently) every magical offensive action, spells that are used almost as often as bread & butter physical spells, so in terms of practicality, it is head & shoulders above Diffusion. It's true that not everyone uses nukes regularly, but the fact that they're able to, and to great effect, means that the JA can also be used to great effect. And that is the point. DD and enfeebling are BLU's strong suits, and anything that enhances those is inherently more useful than anything else.


Diffusion's recast being lowered to 2 minutes (max upgrade) would make the job into a true buffer. You'd have very powerful, unique buffs like Cocoon, Warm-Up, and Memento Mori, but the spells can't overlap as easily as most other buffers. The longest duration Diffusion spells are Refueling and Zephyr Mantle, the latter of which wouldn't be used in most situations, because of the prevalence of Utsu, et al. Also, you have to remember that, by design, BLU can only use 20 spells at any given time. Being a full buffer would be possible, but unlike SMN, which has many of the same buffs (with better durations, really) it wouldn't be able to switch to offense quite as easily. The only Diffusion spells a BLU is almost sure to have at any given time are Cocoon, Refueling, and Plasma Charge. Plasma Charge is pretty much worthless, so you're rotating Cocoon and Refueling, but Refueling is the only one you can keep up the entire time. At the 4 minute mark, you have to choose to keep it up or pick something else (or Hell, even use PC at the 2 minute mark, but you'd still lose it at the 4 minute mark).

In any event, lowering Diffusion's recast even as low as 2 minutes isn't as broken as people make it seem and would add a great amount of utility to the job without making too many waves. I think destroying Exuviationga's hate gaining ability is a small price to pay to open a new door for the job.


BEHOLD, SHAI-HU-BLU ARGUMENTS!!

[FinalJustice]

there's a very big difference between BRD, which was clearly intended to be used as a support-only job, and BLU, which pretty clearly was intended to be far more versatile,

And that still doesn't change the fact youre relying on an exploit of something you dont even need to tank.

[Suiram]

there's a very big difference between BRD, which was clearly intended to be used as a support-only job, and BLU, which pretty clearly was intended to be far more versatile,

And that still doesn't change the fact youre relying on an exploit of something you dont even need to tank.

See, we aren't going to see eye-to-eye apparently on whether or not it's an exploit or deliberate. The way I see it, BLU is the model for making a new hybrid job. They took a simple premise--copy enemy weaponskills as magic--and created a job for which you can say of almost any function in the game, "BLU can do X well, although admittedly not as well as Y job that was designed specifically for that purpose," where you can fill in just about anything for X. Nerfing (single-target) Exuviation hate would essentially remove tanking from that sentence. That's also why I imagine they made it that much hate in the first place--if you believe as I do that it was deliberate--as there are no mob WSs that perform that increased hate function that I can think of, and really a non-damaging, low-cure self-erase is a fairly innocuous spell to put it on, were you inclined to give the job a tanking ability.

'Can' is not the same as 'will' or 'should'.

BLU tanking is a novelty because any job that's not NIN or PLD tanking anything important is a novelty, by definition and figurative implication. Even jobs that are notably good at it, like WAR & MNK, are never on par with those jobs.

I'm going to just say this for the record, if you're using Exuviationga for the hate, there's something wrong. Though it has less to do with Diffusion and more to do with the spell itself. There's no reason for the spell to create that much of a hate spike with only an erase effect and ~80 healing. If it had the same effect as the mob version, maybe, but even then, most of the hate should be coming from the number of statuses cured and HP healed, not the ability itself. Anyway, if you admit you don't need Diffusion, why would it matter if they fixed it and Exuviation to be more support friendly? Really, if BLU were an actual tank, it would have been nerfed just like NIN/BRD, but it's not, so you still have your unneeded invincible-level hate.

As for BLU tanking being a "novelty" I don't know what to say. It's only a novelty insofar as it's not widely accepted, but functionally it's an excellent tank, and I'd imagine that for this reason it will actually become more prevalent as time goes by. As for whether or not the spell itself should have the hate properties it does, I'd refer you to my argument in favor of it directed to FinalJustice above, and yes as I said before if they made it--or at least its hate properties--unaffected by diffusion that would be an ideal compromise to keeping that facet of the job intact, whether or not they were to adjust anything else regarding diffusion. Also, while it's too late to actually test Mazurka with what people know about enmity these days so impossible to verify, from what I've seen from exuviation hate, it's considerably less (single-target) than mazurka ever was (although true it would probably match it if diffusion recast was lowered and still affected exuviation as it presently does).

[Delekii]

'Can' is not the same as 'will' or 'should'.

BLU tanking is a novelty because any job that's not NIN or PLD tanking anything important is a novelty, by definition and figurative implication. Even jobs that are notably good at it, like WAR & MNK, are never on par with those jobs.

Wrong. Again, because YOU don't/can't/won't doesn't make BLU tanking less viable, and BLU isn't the only job with good end-game tanking ability - obviously you missed the whole RDM tanking train.

I'm going to just say this for the record, if you're using Exuviationga for the hate, there's something wrong. Though it has less to do with Diffusion and more to do with the spell itself. There's no reason for the spell to create that much of a hate spike with only an erase effect and ~80 healing. If it had the same effect as the mob version, maybe, but even then, most of the hate should be coming from the number of statuses cured and HP healed, not the ability itself. Anyway, if you admit you don't need Diffusion, why would it matter if they fixed it and Exuviation to be more support friendly? Really, if BLU were an actual tank, it would have been nerfed just like NIN/BRD, but it's not, so you still have your unneeded invincible-level hate.

I'm going to just say this for the record, if you are tanking on BLU and not using Exuviationga for the hate, there's something wrong with you. There's no real reason for any spell in the game to create as much hate as it does besides the fact that that is what SE assigned to it, so I'm not sure why you think there is some precedent as to what Exuviation SHOULD have been assigned hate wise. Again I state - because YOU don't tank doesn't mean others don't, and exuviation is an important part of tanking on BLU. You want to nerf one valid aspect of BLU viability to increase another which suites you better - BLU is no more intrinsically a "BUFF" job than it is a "TANK" job, it is just the way you use it. Diffusion Exuviation might be invincible level hate, but it isn't invincible. BLU IS an actual tank, and exuviation has not been nerfed, so deal with it. There is a big difference between exuviation and /brd mazurka - mazurka hitting 6 people was a massive amount of hate, on a 20 second timer - in comparison diffusion exuv is slightly more hate, on a 20 minute timer - hardly a comparison.

Delekii, I actually realize that Convergence's usefulness is dubious in the grand scheme of things (and for pretty much the same reasons as Diffusion), but I maintain that out of BLU's G2s, it is still one of the more useful and much more useful than Diffusion, which has already been repeatedly attested to. It's usable for (apparently) every magical offensive action, spells that are used almost as often as bread & butter physical spells, so in terms of practicality, it is head & shoulders above Diffusion. It's true that not everyone uses nukes regularly, but the fact that they're able to, and to great effect, means that the JA can also be used to great effect. And that is the point. DD and enfeebling are BLU's strong suits, and anything that enhances those is inherently more useful than anything else.

+1 attack is "useful" to every melee attack and weaponskill in the game, but that doesn't make it more useful than +50str that is useable once per hour - see what I mean? That is an extreme example, but just because something is used more often doesn't mean it is more useful. Again, you are speaking from YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES of blue mage, and you are applying them as a blanket statement to all blue mages. DD might be BLU strong suit, but BLU is not strong at magical DD, and convergeance does incredibly little to help with that. It might help the accuracy of one enfeeble every 10 minutes, but there are no scenarios in which 15% accuracy on a spell once every 10 minutes will make a marked difference on your performance - if a spell landing is THAT important, sub blm and ES it for 100% accuracy.

In any event, lowering Diffusion's recast even as low as 2 minutes isn't as broken as people make it seem and would add a great amount of utility to the job without making too many waves. I think destroying Exuviationga's hate gaining ability is a small price to pay to open a new door for the job.
BEHOLD, SHAI-HU-BLU ARGUMENTS!!

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but why do you think SE wants to open that door? They put obvious limitations on BLU for a reason, and it is already a stupidly powerful job. Fairly obviously you don't see BLU as a tank and you are willing to forgo that aspect of the job in lieu of becoming a buffer, but that would be no different to someone saying "fuck all you paladin tanks, I want to change our job abilities and merits to become a healer rather than a tank", to a lesser degree.

You need to get used to the idea that jobs other than NIN and PLD can effectively tank, and in some cases do it better than these jobs. In the not too distant past we were using AA rotations, WAR main tanks for everything and whatever else, and times change. In many, many end game scenarios, RDM and BLU provide not only viable substitutes as tanks, but in some cases more effective tanks than a PLD or a NIN can be. Both these jobs have massive sources of hate building, great defensive abilities, the ability to sub /nin without losing said hate gaining ability, and unique mitigation spells/traits. RDM tanks have numerous cheap hate gaining spells, a massive amount of fast cast to expediate ichi casts, and a full MP bar every 8:20mins. BLU tanks have more defense than PLD when necessary in both /NIN and /WAR scenarios, much more MP, more MP efficient cures, 3 high hate spells and a sleuth of affordable hate spells, a massive hate boost every 20 minutes thanks to diffusion (though over time, not much different to what a PLD gets from sentinal), 10-60mdb when necessary plus the ability to set MDB traits when necessary. Both these jobs are viable end-game tanks.

there's a very big difference between BRD, which was clearly intended to be used as a support-only job, and BLU, which pretty clearly was intended to be far more versatile,

And that still doesn't change the fact youre relying on an exploit of something you dont even need to tank.

PLDs don't NEED sentinal to increase enmity gain by 100% every 5 minutes to tank, therefore I say it is an exploit and any PLD who uses it is just relying in a crutch. Right? Right? Diffusion exuv is a great boon to BLU tanking - it helps start fights much more quickly, and it means BLU tanks can catch up on hate much more quickly after coming in late, but ultimately, it takes healers and DD very little time to reach the same hate caps that tanks are sitting at. I don't even know why I am arguing this, if you are suggesting to take diffusion off of exuv, and reduce the timer to 2 minutes, be my guest. It would make blue tanking even more overpowered than it is now - cocoon on the entire tank party for 50% of the time, Saline coat 50% of the time, ice spikes on the entire tank party - whatever, lets do it now.

[Suiram]

I'm going to just say this for the record, if you are tanking on BLU and not using Exuviationga for the hate, there's something wrong with you.

I'd be remiss if I didn't disagree with this point here. I wouldn't use diffusion exuviation casually, because it seems better save the timer for the unfortunate event of death or other hate-reset. Particularly since once you're at the hate cap, it's basically just going to be Actinic Burst +2, which is true both if you look at it analytically from what is known about hate now, as well as being noticeably less effective in practice at that stage of a fight.

[LD]

Functionally, it's not as good as NIN or PLD, so *pfffffffffttttttt* Jog on.
There are enough tanks out there that it isn't hard to find one better than you (no, leveling up doesn’t count), even if you're a NIN or PLD. To be frank, most of what I've heard of BLU's tanking exploits is hearsay, but I can safely assume that whatever spells or gear it has, it isn't as good as a PLD or NIN, or maybe even decent tanks like WAR, SAM, & MNK. In fact, the only thing that would give it an edge there would be Exuviationga, wouldn't it?
RDM tanking is an anomaly imo, and thus my omission of it is mostly due to the many PLDs on my server and an admitted lapse in memory. However, the point is that BLU is a lesser compared to the good tanks (using the 'norms' as the standard), and thus will never really be important as one.

Though Raptor Mazurka's situation was different, Exuviationga is still a similar one. Mazurkas were songs that SE thought needed to give more hate, probably based on the fact that they could be used to escape. When SE finally figured out that not only were they mostly used for travel, but their new subable song was used mostly for hate gain rather than travel, they quickly nerfed it and the higher level Mazurka.

While the spell by itself doesn't necessarily have a broken amount of hate, it still has an inordinate amount considering its effect, so it is especially noticeable when multiplied (if it weren't we wouldn't be having this conversation). By having even a basic idea of the hate generated by erase and curing, it isn't difficult to follow the steps of logic and conclude that there is a discrepancy. Exuviation, unlike simple Erase, has a high amount of Cumulative Enmity to go along with its Volatile Enmity. Meaning the reason it's such a great hate tool is because you're getting an instant 3840 CE & VE when using it, so while it creates half as much VE as Invincible, it creates an inconceivably greater amount of CE, non-diminishing hate. The curing couldn't possibly account for all of that, assuming it would in the first place. The hate created is more than an erase and an equal amount of curing used at the same time, and that's a fact. I can only guess they originally intended it to act like the mob's version, but scrapped it and left the hate as it was. Diffusion only multiplies the effect, as it should really. The effect itself is fine and no changes should be made to anything other than the recast. Exuviation is the problem child, as it creates much more hate that it should. Warm-Up is another Diffusion spell that adds a lot of both types of Enmity, but only half as much as Exuviation. To be balanced, these two spells could keep their VE, maybe even increase it, but would have to lose most (practically all) of their CE.


Sentinal is a tanking ability used on a tanking job, I think the hate spike was pretty much planned. If you want to say that Erase + 80 HP needs to create that much CE (the VE honestly seems reasonable), then I can only say quit humping your hate boner and come back to reality. If you can't see it isn't right, you're simply a lost cause.

What SE wants is subject to much scrutiny, even from within, it would seem. If we had let them have their way, many of the positive changes we've seen would never have happened. Diffusion is worthless except if you want a broken amount of hate. Awesome.

Yes, BLU can tank, but it's not a PLD or NIN, so who the fuck cares? This may not be true for RDM, but it's true for every other tank.

and...

just because something is used more often doesn't mean it is more useful.

....fffffffffFuckin'..WHAT?!

[Kaslo]

Really by their reasoning NIN is novelty tank because it wasn't made to tank.

Now why can't we all admit to drop this argument because it's getting no where? Maybe push it to the Sushi v. Meat thread >.>

[Suiram]

I suppose it's pointless to continue this conversation because we've reached fundamental differences of opinion on every argument that's arisen, that won't likely persuade one or another. Arguably nothing in the game is going to tank as well as a skilled and well-geared PLD can, but why you would categorize NIN and RDM as acceptable tanks but not BLU, when you admittedly only know of BLU tanking from speculation and hearsay, means I likely can't persuade you otherwise even though I don't personally agree. The "diffusion buff versus exuviation nerf" argument is also silly, as there's no reason you couldn't have it both ways by additionally changing the way diffusion influences the hate generated by the spells it covers, and the idea of SE 'fixing' diffusion is a pipe dream anyway.

As for exuviation's hate being disproportionate to its other curative effects, I don't see why that matters when the highest hate spells in the game are stun, flash, sleep and dispel, for which you could easily make the same argument, and I've already gone over why I think it's perfectly reasonable to have a high hate-generating spell available to BLU--as for which spell that is, it really doesn't matter. You also don't really seem to realize that as far as BLU tanking goes, stacking Diffusion with Exuviation is a time-saver at best and not essential, and removing its CE property wouldn't really affect a BLU's ability to tank either for that matter, beyond the first 5~10 minutes of a fight.

[FinalJustice]

The fact that "you" have to rely on an ability you can only use every 20 mins just so u can get a hate spike to tank should show you how ridiculous this argument is. SHorter diffusion and longer buff durations would FAR exceed any minute benefit from a hate spike every 20 mins for the party or alliance. RDM can out tank almost anything in the game, yet no one gives a fuck, its a damn novelty. If blu is goping to be a tanker, it should NOT have to rely on diffusion eux to do so... its Broken.

Sentinal is a tanking ability used on a tanking job, I think the hate spike was pretty much planned. If you want to say that Erase + 80 HP needs to create that much CE (the VE honestly seems reasonable), then I can only say quit humping your hate boner and come back to reality. If you can't see it isn't right, you're simply a lost cause.

What SE wants is subject to much scrutiny, even from within, it would seem. If we had let them have their way, many of the positive changes we've seen would never have happened. Diffusion is worthless except if you want a broken amount of hate. Awesome.

[Suiram]

I really hope that wasn't directed at anything I've said.

[Araius]

Holy crap.

Diffusion is good if you tank regularly, which most BLU's don't. I didn't say can't. I said don't.

Convergence is good if you nuke regularly, which (probably) most BLU's don't (though I do some).

Enchainment is good if you're using CA Cannonball a lot more than you're using CA Vertical Cleave.

Assmilation is good if you're finding yourself constantly wishing you had 1 or 2 more points to set crap you want (that'd be me).

I tend to nuke a bit, particularly in Dynamis on PLD or THF mobs when they 2hr. And personally I'd like 1/4 of my Magic Hammers to be buffer, too. Not everyone cares that much, I realize. One of the beauties of BLU is that there are many variations of how to play the job effectively.

Personally I plan on maxing Assimilation and at least unlocking Convergence. If I somehow get in a position where I'm tanking a lot on BLU though, I'll probably take 1 or 2 of those planned Assimilation merits and put them in Diffusion. I'm almost always asked to come RDM to bigger events though so I don't see that happening.

Generally, BLU t2's pale in comparison to other jobs. But they still have their uses.

Shit is situational.

[FinalJustice]

stun, flash, sleep and dispel,

The hate from those spells cannot be multiplied by 6 on the same mob. Any of those spells cast on something that has been provoked, wont even bat an eyelash at the caster. Hell the mob will barely flinch if Eux was cast. Hell even if one Chainspell Stuned, the tank could still quickly reestablish hate dominance pretty easily.

[Suiram]

I don't even know what you're trying to argue at this point. Read my posts, then go back and read yours. I never once said diffusion was essential for BLU tanking. In fact I said over, over, and fucking over again to the point where only an idiot or someone who doesn't actually read anything beyond the instructions for tying his shoelaces that it was at best a time-saver. So ask yourself who you're arguing with here, because it's certainly not me. Exuviation, while it is part of what enables BLU to be a good tank, isn't broken. Shit, diffusion+exuviation isn't broken since it's on a 20min timer. It would be if it was on a 2 min or a 5 min timer, which is how it got brought up in the first place, and if the options are between nerfing exuviation to lower diffusion timer so blu can be a slightly less-shitty "buffer" (whatever the fuck a 'buffer' is, really), and keeping it the way it was designed so that BLU can be an above-average tank, I'd pick the latter. Clearly you'd prefer the other, assuming you are actually capable of forming an articulate opinion, which I'm beginning to doubt at this point.

[FinalJustice]

Did I fucking say that Suiram said Eux was essential to Blu tank?? Get over yourself.

[Suiram]

Did I fucking say that Suiram said Eux was essential to Blu tank?? Get over yourself.

Even assuming that it wasn't directed at me, and that you're not just copping out and pretending like it wasn't now that you have (hopefully) actually read what I've posted, what the hell am I supposed to think when you're clearly responding to someone, I'm the most recent person who posted before you, and when I ask if it was directed at me you reply by quoting something I had written earlier and continuing on the same line of thought? So yes, you basically did say that.

[Araius]

Personally I don't see what's broken about an emergency 20-minute hate spike, but that's besides the point.

BLU tanking is a novelty if you don't know anyone who does it regularly. If you're a BLU who tanks regularly, then it's not. It's a matter of differing playstyles and, more importantly, a differing opinion by those around you of whether or not their BLU should be tanking.

Do not take shit is situational for People say that for a reason. Don't assume that the way you play is the way everyone else does too.

[FinalJustice]

why the fuck do you think i put it in quotations?? I was talking to anyone would said Blu needs it to tank. And if that wasn't you, then STFU!

edit: meant quotations,, was typing in a hurry.

[Araius]

why the fuck do you think i put it in parentheses?? I was talking to anyone would said Blu needs it to tank. And if that wasn't you, then STFU!

Those are quotation marks, not parentheses.

It was a pretty good assumption that you were talking to him, really. That was a pretty subtle "you" in there.

[FinalJustice]

Theres more then him taking place in this conversation. And just because he was the last person to post, doesnt automatically mean i was addressing him. It was a subtle "you" because I wasnt talking to any ONE person in particular. I can't believe now we are arguing over the semantics of generic blanket statements.