Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[eva00r]

i appreciate all testing results ! GO GO BG

[Suiram]

Ignoring for a minute the effect of VIT on DEF, just in terms of base damage, the question of X STR vs. Y VIT is not one of those "once you get so much of this, you should switch to that" things. It's not like INT and MAB where they are calculated separately so that one becomes better when you have a preponderance of the other, since they all apply to the same part of the damage calculation. However, when things are close, one will be better than the other depending on where things are floored or level-corrected in the damage calculation, but fortunately that occurs at a place that depends entirely on the players stats, so can be calculated before even leaving your moghouse.

Let's take the Fort Torque vs. Kubira question. Say a BLU has 131 STR and 82 VIT without neck armor. The base damage is going to be C + [[131*0.5 + 82*0.5]*0.83] = C + 87 damage, where C is D+fSTR.

Adding STR+4 will add 1 to fSTR and change WSC, so the new base damage is (C + 1) + [[135*0.5 + 82*0.5]*0.83] = (C + 1) + 89, or an increase of 3 base damage, 5 during Chain Affinity.

Adding VIT+5 will not change fSTR, but will change WSC, and the new base damage is C + [[131*0.5 + 87*0.5]*0.83] = C + 90, so an increase of 3 base damage, 6 during Chain Affinity.

So clearly in that situation the Fort Torque is superior (before considering however much the DEF+2~3 will help), but you can see why that won't always be so, regardless of how much STR you've already piled on. It depends on the cutoffs. Like I said before, this is all stuff you can do without leaving your mog, the only questionable part enters in when the STR increase is not a multiple of 4, so you are dealing with a question of the % likelihood that you are hitting another fSTR value (like STR+6 is whatever change to WSC, fSTR+1 guaranteed with a 50% chance of fSTR+2), unless the mob's VIT is known.

[Hwang]

I normally try to keep my STR and VIT the same, however that is never easy.

Setup I have atm is:

Beast Slayer/Achereon shield or Genbu's shield, Bibiki Seashell
Wivre mask,Morrigan's robe, Pallas bracelets (will upgrade to Alky when possible)
Enkidu Subligar, Rutter sabatons, Smilidon mantle +1, Iota ring, Rajas ring
Earrings are kinda lacking at the moment, only have Loq and Ethereal

With Fort torque I'm at 67+51 STR (No food) and 63+41 VIT
67+55 STR and 63+36 VIT with Kubira.

Another question I was asking shell members, better to get Wivre mask, or Morrigan's Coronal? I just got the final piece for it yesterday

[Durden]

AF body

[Suiram]

I would not try to keep my STR and VIT about equal. In large quantities, every point of STR is about 60% more effective (in terms of base damage) than every point of VIT. On average you get 1 base damage for every 1.5 STR you add and every 2.4 VIT you add, since fSTR caps so ridiculously high for BLU. It's only when you get near the end and need to make specific, close gear choices that you would want to run some calculations like the one I did a few posts up.

[[Vax]]

So you are saying, as long as I'm getting Minne for my DEF, VIT should not matter at all? I can get +80 or more STR pretty easily now...

[Belgaer]

I find it strange that everyone always talks about Cannonball builds as if getting Minne as a BLU is common. BLU's under appreciated, and probably always will be, and we don't really belong in the tank party. The only way I see a BLU fitting in with a BRD and getting minne (which would have to pretty much be an exclusive/Pianissimo Minne) is if you're a leader in your LS. -.- Or you have over 9000 BRDs. /crush scouter

[LD]

What I find strange isn't the discussion of CB's details, but the fact that it's brought up in every conversation regarding stat mods and fSTR as opposed to, say, Vert Cleave or the big 3. It's the only frequently used phys spell with a VIT mod. The other most used moves are usually STR, DEX, or both. I suppose it's as good an example as any to demonstrate the many facets of the damage formula, but most others have comparatively smaller mods; that makes anything other than STR that much less significant. I suppose this sounds like an endorsement of STR in most situations, but really I'm parroting Suiram's advice: Don't use a single concept to frame all of your conclusions; figure shit out on a case-by-case basis.

[Sylvrdragon]

What I find strange isn't the discussion of CB's details, but the fact that it's brought up in every conversation regarding stat mods and fSTR as opposed to, say, Vert Cleave or the big 3. It's the only frequently used phys spell with a VIT mod. The other most used moves are usually STR, DEX, or both. I suppose it's as good an example as any to demonstrate the many facets of the damage formula, but most others have comparatively smaller mods; that makes anything other than STR that much less significant. I suppose this sounds like an endorsement of STR in most situations, but really I'm parroting Suiram's advice: Don't use a single concept to frame all of your conclusions; figure shit out on a case-by-case basis.

Or, you just decide not to stress about that extra 5 damage and save yourself the headache.

[LD]

Yea, cuz we've been discussing the damage formula for 100+ pages because we think everything has to be perfect. If you don't want to discuss the conversation at hand, have a cock and a smile and stfu, ya shallow twit.

[Suiram]

So you are saying, as long as I'm getting Minne for my DEF, VIT should not matter at all? I can get +80 or more STR pretty easily now...

It's not that you want to ignore VIT. It's that in terms of base damage, STR is more effective than VIT. But if something gives considerably more VIT than STR (bibiki seashell vs. RSE sachet, say), you would probably want the VIT, or likewise if you don't have a STR option but you do have a VIT option.

It gets more difficult when you consider the impact of VIT on DEF. We know that there is a direct correlation between DEF and "Blue Attack" for Cannonball, but is it a 1:1 ratio? Or is it DEF times some multiplier, or plus some constant, or both? Maybe someone has tested it, I'm not sure. Let's say it's 1:1 just for this example. A 0% SA Cannonball is basically a 200% SA Steel Cyclone. If you had to choose between, say, "STR+4 Attack-3" (attack -3 to negate the 3 from STR) or "VIT+4, Attack+3" which do you pick? I actually don't know the answer to that question, but the answer is the same as the answer to "STR+4 vs. VIT+4" for Cannonball, assuming the WAR is using a 25% attack food (to compare to a BLU using taco).

[Sylvrdragon]

Yea, cuz we've been discussing the damage formula for 100+ pages because we think everything has to be perfect. If you don't want to discuss the conversation at hand, have a cock and a smile and stfu, ya shallow twit.

I was referring to the "Calculate it before you leave your mog house" you leaking vagina. Once you find a setup that works in virtually all cases, that extra fucking 5 damage isn't worth the time you waste to calculate it. Not to mention that a lot of things can spawn at different levels, so unless you plan on running an extended test ON THE FUCKING MOB YOU'RE FIGHTING, then you have about equal odds of your calculations being wrong and worthless anyway.

STR > VIT. Keep it simple. It isn't even worth mentioning that once in a great fucking while occurrence where you want to stop JUST SHORT of "STR everywhere you can fit it" for a few extra damage, especially on a stat that is harder to find good pieces for most slots.

[Yugl]

On Elvaan go with ~+70 STR then dump the rest into VIT. Simple and more accurate.

[Suiram]

STR > VIT. Keep it simple. It isn't even worth mentioning that once in a great fucking while occurrence where you want to stop JUST SHORT of "STR everywhere you can fit it" for a few extra damage, especially on a stat that is harder to find good pieces for most slots.

I know you're responding to LD, but to a certain extent you seem to be addressing what I was saying, too. So let me just say this. STR > VIT is a good simple rule for most people. But if someone asks, as someone did, "which of these two really close pieces of STR and VIT are better," they have three options. They can go with the STR > VIT rule, which is true for large amounts but can fail at very close values, they can go by Yugl's "+70 STR then dump the rest into VIT" which is completely misleading, or they can take 3 minutes with their cellphone's calculator or the application in Windows and see which one is actually going to give more damage. If someone didn't care about the difference, they wouldn't have even asked in the first place.

I'm not saying that there's something wrong with not hassling the extra 5 damage. There are situations where I wouldn't bother either, on both of my jobs. But it's also fine if someone does care, and there is a straightforward way to find a good answer (which, by the way, often has nothing to do with the stats of the mob you are fighting, as you suggested).

[Villian]

My blu is around +~35-39vit with +~70str in gears (with food, gears, spells, and songs/rolls for audy torque). I get constant 1k+ SACA this way.

[[Vax]]

My blu is around +~35-39vit with +~70str in gears (with food, gears, spells, and songs/rolls for audy torque). I get constant 1k+ SACA this way.

If you have songs and aren't breaking 1k every time with SACA, you are doing something horribly wrong lol.

Maybe next Tia I'll bring a bit more STR gear only and do a few tests...

[LD]

I was referring to the "Calculate it before you leave your mog house" you leaking vagina. Once you find a setup that works in virtually all cases, that extra fucking 5 damage isn't worth the time you waste to calculate it. Not to mention that a lot of things can spawn at different levels, so unless you plan on running an extended test ON THE FUCKING MOB YOU'RE FIGHTING, then you have about equal odds of your calculations being wrong and worthless anyway.

STR > VIT. Keep it simple. It isn't even worth mentioning that once in a great fucking while occurrence where you want to stop JUST SHORT of "STR everywhere you can fit it" for a few extra damage, especially on a stat that is harder to find good pieces for most slots.

You've missed the point very horribly. Parsimony does not enter into this conversation because it's an intellectual discussion, not about practical scenarios. Its purpose is to educate people of the finer points of the damage formula, not necessarily to dictate what to do in every situation. It is a lecture, a treatise, an educational tool used to instill a baseline of knowledge for a better understanding of what you plan on doing, not Bible for BLU.

What that means is simplifying it for dullards so they can chant off generalizations and hold them as indisputable fact, like you're doing, is against the entire point of this thread. Why would it be 168 pages long when we could summarize everything as 'whore STR'? If it weren't for intellectual curiosity, we wouldn't have figured out that there are att multipliers or how high BLU's fSTR was.

Basically, your point of view encourages people to put less thought into what they're doing, which could lead to another series of gimp BLUs who won't even bother to get VIT on CB. That's selfishly counter productive, so it must be quashed. Also, you're an idiot, so please shut the fuck up.

[el_tio]

Edit: Actually nvm, idk. >.>

Anyways, was wondering if anyone had some good info on attack for BLU spells. It seems quite low IMO, which is why IMO /thf tends to perform better vs. HNMs. I remember VZX saying certain spells had attack bonus. Is it just blue magic = attack? Anything like 2 str = 1 blu atk?

[VZX]

What I said was each spell has its own attack value (i.e. I can't cap the pDIF of Head Butt, Sprout smack on Kuftal crab, but I can do it on Sickle Slash or Uppercut.)
You can definitely see this too when you're fighting high def mob. CA Frenetic Rip tend to perform noticably better than CA Disseverment.

[LD]

EDIT: What he said.