Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Suiram]

This.

I cannot think of one time where setting Magic Fruit is going to be detrimental outside a Cannonball setup.

If anything that's backwards. If you're in a Cannonball setup, you're likely doing something important enough that Magic Fruit could come in handy. If you're in a Colibri merit party (and emphasizing Colibri in case it wasn't clear before, because that's what Yvonne asked about and much of what I said above would only apply there) and you're in a well-built merit PT, that is probably the least emergency-magic-fruit-needing situation a 75BLU will find themselves in. Honestly, how often does "shit hit the fan" at Colibri? lol And I wasn't even saying not to set it; there's almost always room for it. Just you shouldn't be expected to be using it, as I have read people advocating before, and the emergency circumstances where it may come in handy, that's great, but they surely should be quite rare.

[Suiram]

I think I wasn't really clear on this point in my first post and that most recent reply, so here is what I was trying to get at. There are a lot of things about BLU and BLU spells that make the job uniquely useful in a number of situations. If you would bring a WAR to some event, but opt to bring a SAM or a MNK or whatever instead, they are all going to be doing essentially the same thing. If you bring a BLU, it is often going to be for one the reasons that sets BLU apart from other jobs, whether it's Head Butt, or Magic Fruit, or Cannonball, or whatever spell/function or some combination; it's often going to be for something apart from the reasons you would bring another melee. (This is over and above having a melee DD, I'm not saying the BLU wouldn't be doing that, too, they just wouldn't be doing pure DoT and WS damage as well as some other job, but would make up for it with these other factors.)

Merit PT isn't like that, though. Merit camp does great without BLU--so great, in fact, that it's difficult to find invites unless people already know you are a badass--so those normal things that you do on BLU that make it a special job has to go by the wayside, and you have to attune your playstyle so that you can approach the damage output of some other job. This is all I was trying to say.

[Yugl]

Merit PT isn't like that, though. Merit camp does great without BLU--so great, in fact, that it's difficult to find invites unless people already know you are a badass--so those normal things that you do on BLU that make it a special job has to go by the wayside, and you have to attune your playstyle so that you can approach the damage output of some other job. This is all I was trying to say.

Magic Fruit will be more noticeable to a PT than +3 STR or whatever stat you plan on replacing. If they're meriting as you described, then all that really matters is Disseverment, the major modifiers, and Refresh. However, that same PT WILL notice if you don't cast Magic Fruit (Or at least ask you why you didn't).

[Suiram]

Magic Fruit will be more noticeable to a PT than +3 STR or whatever stat you plan on replacing. If they're meriting as you described, then all that really matters is Disseverment, the major modifiers, and Refresh.

You're absolutely right, I'm not talking about not setting it (I believe I said this already). I'm talking about the 72 MP spent using it, as opposed to using that MP on Disseverment, in Colibri merit PT. What I was trying to contrast in the post you quoted was like this. Say you're fighting a Nyzul boss (or fill in the blank of your preferred merit-ish endgame event) WAR MNK BLU BRD BRD RDM, versus a merit PT with the same setup. If you are the BLU in that Nyzul, you should be popping off Magic Fruit whenever you see the WAR or MNK in yellow HP, Flash when you need to, etc. The ability to do those things is probably one of the reasons that they brought you.

But take that same group in the merit PT, and you don't need to be doing (and shouldn't be wasting your MP doing) all of those things, but rather focus on trying to damage, since the party should have it handled, and your job is to make sure that you are doing your part to kill fast enough that you get invited next time. If someone gets pecking flurry and somehow still has hate and for some reason the mob hasn't died, then sure, pop off a magic fruit, but that's not the same thing.

[azagarth]

People only die when the healer is slacking ;D get better healers.

Really all dd should be rocking 1100~ hp even as taru on most jobs, most dds i pty with are big people and sit around 1300~ I have yet to see a pecking do over 500 except on some counterstanced mnks who have 1600~ hp anyhow. This means you have to not only lose all defenses like 3rd eye or ni, but also take 600dmg min more to die off... thats like 6 hits lol.

I really cant imagine a bird lasting long enough after his first ws to attack 6 times... if thats the case your pty is killing hella slow.

What I am trying to get to is your magic fruit at birds should never matter at all.

MMJSP i can see it possibly being set. This though would mean you would be fighting skoffs. While firespit does alot i never see it do enough to be a danger and would require me curing, again the lone healer should have it plenty easy enough to do this w/o a worry. It can spike 950~s but thats rare, skoffs on other hand can be dicks but if your killing them that means your pty is melting mobs and i doubt they will get 2 ws off. Everytime i seen a person die at mmj camp its been to either a aga from blm that the lazy rdm never silenced or brd never slept and immediately firespit after, or a skoff lays out a person in 1 hit. Both these really wouldent be prevented by setting magic fruit as they would die before it goes off most cases.

with all that said i still set it because i dont trust pickups ;D but with a good rdm friend i usually add 3 str instead of it.

[Kaslo]

Have you ever seen mage mamool firespit?

[Belgaer]

Birds are pretty straightforward. If you just stick to disseverment (due to the piercing bonus), cast it whenever the timer is up (unless mob almost dead, obviously), WS when you have TP (again unless mob almost dead, obviously), pop CA after WS whenever it's up after a WS for the WSC bonus on your next Dissev, and you do respectable damage without really running into MP issues. You listed Enki for body, but I'd use AF2 or Morrigans if you have it for TP set, and you'll have 6 mp/tick, which pays for a Disseverment every 34~35 seconds after you factor in Conserve MP.

Even with that, if you're casting often enough, you'll slowly be losing MP, so I would just try to stay in a range of 200~400 current MP at any given time. Depending on how often you drop below that, you have a few options. You can just slow down a bit, you can try to sneak in an MP drainkiss occasionally when the delay from casting will least upset your melee DPS, or if you know one of the BRDs you can work out with them to Pia ballad 2 whenever you drop below 150ish or so, and then go back to regular songs when you're back above 300ish. Or some combination of the above.

A lot of times you'll see people advance the opinion that since a BLU has such a nice variety of helpful spells, they should be tossing out Magic Fruits and Head Butts and Hasting themselves, etc. in merits. I agree fully with this view when you're talking about "meritish endgame events" like Nyzul, Salvage, Assault, what have you. But in my view, actual merit PTs are strictly business, and you are basically taking the spot of some other DD that wouldn't have those things, so if the party is well-built they shouldn't need that from you, just the same as if you were on some other job, so you should be able to use your MP to focus just on increasing your overall damage (and thereby increase everyone's EXP/Hour).

Also, you didn't ask this but with the gear you listed you should be at or close to the accuracy cap on birds with march/march min/mad, so I'd use your cheapish meat of choice. And aside from the Refresh body question, I don't see any glaring disputes with the gear you listed, either.

The only part I don't agree with here is the part I highlighted. MP Drainkiss should drain you over 100 MP unless it gets an odd resist. At 150, which is common enough for me, that's 2 full Disseverment's worth. That's more than going to make up for the melee DPS you miss out on while casting, assuming you're doing decent disseverment numbers. Even if you only do 400 or so (Just an example), they'll be at least equal to the melee DPS you lost, plus you still have enough MP for another Disseverment. Granted, due to recast timers, you'll probably end up opting for Frenetic Rip instead of waiting for the recast on Disseverment, since you'll have the MP for it. Cast MP Drainkiss whenever it's up and you'll get a lot more MP, and a lot more damage over time. This is especially true in faster-paced parties (DDs aren't /NIN, BRDx2, people are geared to the teeth, etc). Blue Mage is not a Monk with MP. Our DPS is mediocre at best.

[Plow]

Suriam I think your definition of a "well built merit pt" is different from what most people are finding most effective these days.

If you need 4 pure dd's worth of damage to keep up chains in a merit pt, there's just something wrong.

Perhaps this is more what the JP questions in Elmer's thing were getting at, the best choice for that final dd spot isn't always (in fact is almost never) another person adding absolutely nothing but raw damage.


Sure, if you're doing like BLU + Relic war/drk/sam + 4x support, you definitely aren't going to be doing anything but blowing shit up. But if you're in a group with 2 great melee, you, and 3 support, let alone 3 melee, you and 2 support, a "well built" party isn't going to need you to do the absolute most possible damage at the expense of everything else you can offer.

[Suiram]

I don't know what you're responding to here. I wouldn't consider 2x support a well-built merit PT, and it should have been clear from my posts that I didn't, when I said things like "march/march min/mad" or "WAR MNK BLU BRD BRD RDM." You aren't responding to me here, you're responding to an unfounded assumption about what I was saying.

So now that we're on the same page, let's look at your statement, "in a group with 2 great melee, you, and 3 support, a 'well built' party isn't going to need you to do the absolute most possible damage at the expense of everything else you can offer." How good a merit PT is isn't just a simple yes/no thing. There is a range of killspeed (and so exp/hour) between a party that can keep chain, and one that kills mobs as quickly as they can repop. I wouldn't call the ability to simply keep chain a "good" party, I'd call it an "adequate party" if anything. From there, to make it a good party or a great party, what the BLU is doing is going to make a difference. And more to the point of what I was saying above, the "everything else you can offer," is not going to further that end nearly as well as the playstyle I was describing in my first reply on this topic.


@Belgaer you may have a good point about the MP drainkiss thing.

[Plow]

So now that we're on the same page, let's look at your statement, "in a group with 2 great melee, you, and 3 support, a 'well built' party isn't going to need you to do the absolute most possible damage at the expense of everything else you can offer." How good a merit PT is isn't just a simple yes/no thing. There is a range of killspeed (and so exp/hour) between a party that can keep chain, and one that kills mobs as quickly as they can repop. I wouldn't call the ability to simply keep chain a "good" party, I'd call it an "adequate party" if anything. From there, to make it a good party or a great party, what the BLU is doing is going to make a difference. And more to the point of what I was saying above, the "everything else you can offer," is not going to further that end nearly as well as the playstyle I was describing in my first reply on this topic.


@Belgaer you may have a good point about the MP drainkiss thing.

That depends entirely on how good your party is.

But in the end, a party with 2 pure DD 3 support and a hybrid is going to be more effective than a party with 3 pure dd and 3 support, provided your 2 melee are killing fast enough.


Thus far the highest legit exp numbers are from 2 dps + 4 support + outside healing, how you're going to imply that 3 dps + 3 support would somehow be better, I'm really not sure. At this point 2 ah sams can be sufficient dps for 25k/hr, merit situations where the blu would need to be all out pure dps are not top quality groups.


I mean... honestly you could grab 2 melee capable of a top notch level kill speed, bring brd brd rdm, sub sch and fill the WHM role more efficiently than a whm can do it...

[Suiram]

Thus far the highest legit exp numbers are from 2 dps + 4 support + outside healing, how you're going to imply that 3 dps + 3 support would somehow be better, I'm really not sure. At this point 2 ah sams can be sufficient dps for 25k/hr, merit situations where the blu would need to be all out pure dps are not top quality groups.

I was implying no such thing. I was only focused on the 3x dd, 3x support parties because in 2x dd, 4x support pts we both agree that, in your words, "you aren't going to be doing anything but blowing shit up," and the 4x dd, 2x support pts we both agree are not to be considered "well-built".

So in the end, I guess it's a question about whether, "a party with 2 pure DD 3 support and a hybrid is going to be more effective than a party with 3 pure dd and 3 support." I'm sticking to my assertion above, there is nothing that BLU can offer in the "hybrid" sense that is needed for colibri party and will increase killspeed more than acting in the capacity of a pure DD. It's not the same as adding a 2nd BRD to a BRD/COR/RDM or a COR to a BRD/BRD/RDM backline party. The support aspects of BLU, while useful in myriad situations, are not particularly useful in this capacity.

[Yugl]

I mean... honestly you could grab 2 melee capable of a top notch level kill speed, bring brd brd rdm, sub sch and fill the WHM role more efficiently than a whm can do it...

Why would there be a WHM in that PT to begin with? BRD BRD RDM is enough healing power on its own.

[Plow]

Magic fruit in a dd setup without light staff is about equal efficiency wise to cure4.

Diamondhide is more efficient than curaga 2 if it all gets used, and offers the additional benefit of utsusemi casting protection.

Frightful Roar... I don't know the math on, but on colibri def down can be fairly significant, especially if you're not in the mood to spam kebabi. It's less than half the mana, so it needs to finish the mob like... 500-600 damage worth sooner to be worth casting once per fight? I guess it probably wouldn't add that much for 2 handers. I think it may be worth it with rid/joy war, or thf, though.


You also have arguably the best CC in the game, a slow that doesn't get reflected, and perhaps most importantly, the ability to sub sch and have the most efficient direct healing in the game, while still being capable of significant damage.

Why would there be a WHM in that PT to begin with? BRD BRD RDM is enough healing power on its own.

It's not nearly that simple when it comes to getting the best exp possible in the game.

Here's a hint: it's not colibri. Even though colibri are the primary topic of this conversation.


If you can kill fast enough to overrun respawn times with 2 dps the way you can at colibri, having a 3rd person standing there doing nothing but damage is quite silly.

[Suiram]

I have to run out so I don't really have enough time for a well-articulated post, so let me just hit the main points as quickly as I can.

Magic Fruit - Isn't needed (except maybe in very rare emergency as has been discussed)

Diamondhide - Definitely isn't needed

Frightful Roar - Won't land

CC - (what do you mean here, "Crowd Control"? Isn't needed if thats what it was)

Best exp possible in this game outside SMN burn is MMM V02 with 108 and 5 duped mazes (and BLU playstyle here would be radically different from colibri.) However.....

Colibri is not just the primary topic of this conversation, as has been said over and over it is the sole topic of conversation. There is much that at least I have said which is intended to apply only to colibri, which is why I've also clarified multiple times that this is the scope of my remarks. This is because the question that originally set off this debate was about colibri specifically. If you want to broaden this to other situations, that's fine, but then don't take what I've said out of context when you do.

[Yugl]

Magic fruit in a dd setup without light staff is about equal efficiency wise to cure4.

No it is not as efficient as a WHM's cure which receive less enmity and a cure boost due to minimal gear.

Diamondhide is more efficient than curaga 2 if it all gets used, and offers the additional benefit of utsusemi casting protection.

100 MP and mega casting time. What the hell?

Frightful Roar... I don't know the math on, but on colibri def down can be fairly significant, especially if you're not in the mood to spam kebabi. It's less than half the mana, so it needs to finish the mob like... 500-600 damage worth sooner to be worth casting once per fight? I guess it probably wouldn't add that much for 2 handers. I think it may be worth it with rid/joy war, or thf, though.

Wind based magic on Colibri in melee gear? Land? No.

You also have arguably the best CC in the game, a slow that doesn't get reflected, and perhaps most importantly, the ability to sub sch and have the most efficient direct healing in the game, while still being capable of significant damage.

2x BRD + RDM can handle pretty much any CC issue you need at the Colibri Camp. BRDs use Elegy anyways. Sub SCH only adds MP since you cannot use Penury with BLU magic. A WHM can do this as well and provide everyone with haste (Better than Refueling AOE). Significant amount of damage? Not if you're doing all the stuff mentioned. The title of most efficient healer belongs to DRG.

It's not nearly that simple when it comes to getting the best exp possible in the game.

Here's a hint: it's not colibri. Even though colibri are the primary topic of this conversation.

Colibri is the only situation we're talking about though.

If you can kill fast enough to overrun respawn times with 2 dps the way you can at colibri, having a 3rd person standing there doing nothing but damage is quite silly.

Practical situation? If a group has two DDs and Support good enough to clear mobs that fast, then why are they inviting a BLU in the first place?

[Plow]

Ok, for Colibri only, I still think it's the perfect opportunity to use blu to experiment with pushing exp boundaries. With one bard pulling and another healing, there's essentially no limit to the amount of mobs you can pull and hold at one time.

More stacked mobs makes it easier on the bards, provided you're supporting the sleeps, which allows the melee to be at optimal efficiency absolutely as much as possible. And, then, when you're looking at holding masses of mobs, diamondhide starts to become very useful, and healing breeze even if simply to get the mobs coming to you instead of bards when they wake, which is especially important in multi-level pulling.

You covering sleeps also allows for the 2nd bard to pull, which positions you to be able to pull from the top if you can overkill the bottom 2 tiers. (I'm assuming by colibri only you mean literally colibri only, avoiding mamools)


I dunno, maybe I'm just overthinking it because I hate to see blu stripped down to your basic melee job.


edit @ Yugl: Light arts. With 140 mnd 80 vit and light arts magic fruit is the most efficient direct heal in the game (it actually is regardless but it gets crazy when you really push it with light arts and heavy mnd/vit setup)

direct healing btw, I said that specifically to exclude drg because it's really not comparable

[Belgaer]

Whoa....whoa whoa....whoa.... Who the hell uses Frightful Roar on Colibri? Must have resists and lands filtered. >_> Greater Colibri might as well be immune to all wind based enfeebles. If you really want DEF Down, use Seedspray or even Corrosive Ooze. You're better off with the former due to casting time.

Diamondhide? Wtf? It's hardly over 200 HP worth with 312 skill. That for 99 MP? You could get around a 180 Healing Breeze for 55 MP instead.

You're BLU, not a WHM. 1 RDM or SCH (not including WHM, since WHMs never fully merit Devotion and you get a lot more worth with Refresh or at least Voidstorm for MP Drainkiss (w/ Anrin Obi and Diabolos's Earring).).

Final point: I've never ever had as good an EXP/hour rate with 2 support mages and a BRD in meripo as with 4 DDs, a mage, and a BRD. I've never had to toss out a magic fruit with a mage that had half a brain. Well, maybe at mamool camps.

As far as BLU/SCH goes, you're best off going BLU/NIN and not getting hit like a truck when you pull hate with a cure, if you're meleeing (you should be). Especially if you have Refresh. Not to mention /NIN will contribute more toward DPS than /SCH would.

[Yugl]

Ok, for Colibri only, I still think it's the perfect opportunity to use blu to experiment with pushing exp boundaries. With one bard pulling and another healing, there's essentially no limit to the amount of mobs you can pull and hold at one time.

There's generally no need for you to grab multiple mobs at once. If you are, how do you plan on doing that without wasting a lot of MP when they wake up? What happens if sleep partial resists? If you're grab a lot of birds, you're wasting MP. If you're grabbing a few, you're wasting DMG time. A BRD sings then does what? Sits there? We send the BRD to get mobs (Much like COR) because they have nothing else to do. BRDs are perfectly capable of keeping songs up and finding mobs.

More stacked mobs makes it easier on the bards, provided you're supporting the sleeps, which allows the melee to be at optimal efficiency absolutely as much as possible. And, then, when you're looking at holding masses of mobs, diamondhide starts to become very useful, and healing breeze even if simply to get the mobs coming to you instead of bards when they wake, which is especially important in multi-level pulling.

During the PT, the BRD needs to become accustomed to the killing speed of their group. They should know when they need a mob and when they won't. Having said that, BRD/NIN is optimal and prevents much of the damage that comes its way. BLU/SCH on the other hands, prevents no damage aside from SS, which prevents ~200 DMG (1.5hits?). I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but the fact is that you're placing BLU in such a Crowd Control position that it's unlikely to perform damage at all. You're basically relying on the other two DDs to do a three man work, which frankly does not work out (After the third support, you probably won't do enough excess DMG from a fourth support to justify the lack of a third DD).

You covering sleeps also allows for the 2nd bard to pull, which positions you to be able to pull from the top if you can overkill the bottom 2 tiers. (I'm assuming by colibri only you mean literally colibri only, avoiding mamools)

Your sleeping the mobs kills your damage output and costs mega MP once they all awake and start attacking you.

I dunno, maybe I'm just overthinking it because I hate to see blu stripped down to your basic melee job.

The basic melee class is the best set up for merits though. It's about endurance and zerg. Relying on MP is a burden when it comes to merits. If there were another class that could toss haste and cure without MP, all mages would go out of business. That's the reason BLU seek to limit their reliance on MP (Spell spamming) and optimize their melee status (Swords).

edit @ Yugl: Light arts. With 140 mnd 80 vit and light arts magic fruit is the most efficient direct heal in the game (it actually is regardless but it gets crazy when you really push it with light arts and heavy mnd/vit setup)

140 MND? I'm Elvaan on SCH right now with 70MND base. Are you saying that BLU DD Gear (Talking about the part where you say casting in DD gear) will add 70 MND?

direct healing btw, I said that specifically to exclude drg because it's really not comparable

Direct healing is what now? I find HB to direct healing. Indirect heals would be SS like traits.

[Plow]

There's generally no need for you to grab multiple mobs at once. If you are, how do you plan on doing that without wasting a lot of MP when they wake up? What happens if sleep partial resists? If you're grab a lot of birds, you're wasting MP. If you're grabbing a few, you're wasting DMG time. A BRD sings then does what? Sits there? We send the BRD to get mobs (Much like COR) because they have nothing else to do. BRDs are perfectly capable of keeping songs up and finding mobs.

To answer the bold specifically, because it's the key to a lot of it, you don't. That's what makes 4 support parties work, based around the 2 dps being able to maintain the right kill speed. This is why people will merit with outside heals when it seems to make no sense when you're not having mana issues anyway. If you can take more damage, you can kill more shit, provided you've got the kill speed.

Also, you underestimate the stress on a single pulling bard in a top notch pt. The kill rate is quite simply faster than the time it takes to pull and sing songs if you're not bringing in multiples and you're killing at an extremely high rate.

During the PT, the BRD needs to become accustomed to the killing speed of their group. They should know when they need a mob and when they won't. Having said that, BRD/NIN is optimal and prevents much of the damage that comes its way. BLU/SCH on the other hands, prevents no damage aside from SS, which prevents ~200 DMG (1.5hits?). I understand what you're trying to accomplish, but the fact is that you're placing BLU in such a Crowd Control position that it's unlikely to perform damage at all. You're basically relying on the other two DDs to do a three man work, which frankly does not work out (After the third support, you probably won't do enough excess DMG from a fourth support to justify the lack of a third DD).

The whole point is that the best pt *always* needs a mob. If you can 2 shot the mobs, there simply is no time when you don't need to have another mob at the ready.

Your sleeping the mobs kills your damage output and costs mega MP once they all awake and start attacking you.

Your damage becomes a bonus in a support role, much like a corsair. If a cor is pulling and sleeping etc. as you're describing, they're not going to do their optimal damage. Such is the life of a hybrid. Nobody's complaining about the RDM not nuking enough.

The basic melee class is the best set up for merits though. It's about endurance and zerg. Relying on MP is a burden when it comes to merits. That's the reason BLU seek to limit their reliance on MP (Spell spamming) and optimize their melee status (Swords).

Who has just BLU 75? I mean, this whole conversation is based around a bard's question, if you want to be playing the best possible merit job, blu simply isn't it. Playing the job as a pure DD will never compete with what you could bring to the party as another job, completing a top notch 2 main dd pt with all of your tools you just might.

If there were another class that could toss haste and cure without MP, all mages would go out of business.

*cough*

140 MND? I'm Elvaan on SCH right now with 70MND base. Are you saying that BLU DD Gear (Talking about the part where you say casting in DD gear) will add 70 MND?

Obviously shit is situational, but, uh.. gear macros? ... This wasn't the part where I was talking about casting in DD gear, as I specifically stated casting in dd gear in a dd setup it's still one of the most efficient, but setting up specifically for it, it gets ridiculous.

Direct healing is what now? I find HB to direct healing. Indirect heals would be SS like traits.

Magic fruit isn't going to decide to cast on your yellow bard or low hp rdm that's missing 100 hp when your 1400 hp war eats a pecking flurry.

[ClarkSammich]

Mirage kefiyeh was mentioned earlier for big 3 set earlier, was it proven to bump base damage up on spells? I remember when it first came out everyone dismissed it because it was assumed it wasn't enough +skill.

Also does anyone have a chart that displays base damage increase:blue magic skill?