Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Wolfknight]

To answer the bold specifically, because it's the key to a lot of it, you don't. That's what makes 4 support parties work, based around the 2 dps being able to maintain the right kill speed. This is why people will merit with outside heals when it seems to make no sense when you're not having mana issues anyway. If you can take more damage, you can kill more shit, provided you've got the kill speed.

Also, you underestimate the stress on a single pulling bard in a top notch pt. The kill rate is quite simply faster than the time it takes to pull and sing songs if you're not bringing in multiples and you're killing at an extremely high rate.

so you want one mage to leech off the two strong DD rather than improve kill rate and exp per hour? <_<, cause I've held chain before with 2 DD, brd cor[or brd] mage when our 3rd DD d/c'd I really don't see how another mage is going to help the party at all unless you're going to have Fulltime hasso and tell me thats going to makes up for no 3rd DD in terms of exp/hour .

[Plow]

so you want one mage to leech off the two strong DD rather than improve kill rate and exp per hour? <_<, cause I've held chain before with 2 DD, brd cor[or brd] mage when our 3rd DD d/c'd I really don't see how another mage is going to help the party at all unless you're going to have Fulltime hasso and tell me thats going to makes up for no 3rd DD in terms of exp/hour .

Uh, that's one way. Skipping ichis and just healing until next ni for /nin jobs is another way. Allowing a bard to just eat some damage and not stop to cast extra at the times when pulls get long and still need to be extremely fast, etc.


The scenario you just stated actually supports my point... If you can maintain the kill rate without the 3rd DD, why add another raw dd and simply overkill when you can add someone that can allow the 2 main dd to do the absolute most possible, while eliminating the potential for overkill by allowing easier pulling and covering some of the sleeping?

It's not like you can't still cast disseverment fairlly often, the fact is it's simply not always the most raw damage you can do that decides what's best for the party.

[azagarth]

for reference I had a blux3 sam brd rdm pty the other day.

One blu quickly DCed and never came back but we cleared area with 5 so was non issue.

the sam red dotted and it was me and the blu left. We waited 5 and decided start back up once all back from afk. We got to c39 as blux2 brd and rdm lol.... then sam poped up and we got a war as rep for the blu after an hr XD.. needless say we got over c100 as full pty but the fact just 2 blus as sole dd could keep constant chain shows how lol colibri are.

I personally want to do rdm/nin for pulling + dnc + 3blu and a brd with relic lol....

my diss where doing 800~ using crab sushi, never really dipped or spiked. seeing as I could literally spam them in my above pty, this ideal one you could spam frentic with it too and having 3x blu it just be sic lol.. i really want to try it out. 13 tic refresh and dnc aspir sambas... idk if you could spam those nice big 3 fast enough to use the mp up, and add mpdrainkis for 150 mp a cast your looking at one heck of a dd....

so why the long post? Simple dont turn my job into a healer when its subpar (though efficent) while it can be a dd with the big dogs!

[Yugl]

To answer the bold specifically, because it's the key to a lot of it, you don't. That's what makes 4 support parties work, based around the 2 dps being able to maintain the right kill speed. This is why people will merit with outside heals when it seems to make no sense when you're not having mana issues anyway. If you can take more damage, you can kill more shit, provided you've got the kill speed.

Also, you underestimate the stress on a single pulling bard in a top notch pt. The kill rate is quite simply faster than the time it takes to pull and sing songs if you're not bringing in multiples and you're killing at an extremely high rate.

First lets look at what we're dealing with here. One, is this is a practical situation? Outside healers. Two DDs capable of killing mobs so fast (And Apparently always have TP when you're 2 Shotting them...) that the BRD cannot keep up. That same PT is going to invite a BLU. Do you honestly see this as the norm got most players? A lot of people on these boards seem to forget pragmatics when posting here. The classic example is Allah. He always has some DB plan in the works. Could it work? Possibly. Is it practical? Hell no. You're speaking in a far off abstract world that does not exist in game.

The whole point is that the best pt *always* needs a mob. If you can 2 shot the mobs, there simply is no time when you don't need to have another mob at the ready.

If the PT you described needs crowd control so bad, why not just get a COR? Multiple light shots, Rolls, and can DD to almost max potential. The fact is that if you're in a situation where the DDs are as beastly as you claim, then you're going to run out of mobs no matter what you do. If that is the case, then you should stagger kills so you can continue the chain.

Your damage becomes a bonus in a support role, much like a corsair. If a cor is pulling and sleeping etc. as you're describing, they're not going to do their optimal damage. Such is the life of a hybrid. Nobody's complaining about the RDM not nuking enough.

They're not doing optimal damage, but they're doing much more DMG than a BLU is going to do with one sword and a rack of spells set to reach that 140MND you claim. RDM not nuking enough? On a Colibri? Is that your comparison? I like how you completely had to skew the situation in order to make a point. If a COR is getting mobs (In which case there is no BRD), then you're not in this optimal situation you're preaching from. If a BRD is getting mobs, then the COR better start doing some good DD.

Who has just BLU 75? I mean, this whole conversation is based around a bard's question, if you want to be playing the best possible merit job, blu simply isn't it. Playing the job as a pure DD will never compete with what you could bring to the party as another job, completing a top notch 2 main dd pt with all of your tools you just might.

Did you just jump into this thread without knowledge of the situation at hand? Why else would we be talking about this if it weren't a BLU ONRY situation? Furthermore, you contribute to the PT much more as a BLU DD than a BLU healer. You're obviously trying to suggest that BLU become a support in PTs impractical situations. However, the chances of a BLU ever seeking such a PT is rare if not, near impossible.

*cough*

DNC doesn't count since it doesn't give haste directly. If it could give AoE Haste to the PT members without needing a mob, then DNC would outperform RDM/WHM/SCH in the situation you described.

Obviously shit is situational, but, uh.. gear macros? ... This wasn't the part where I was talking about casting in DD gear, as I specifically stated casting in dd gear in a dd setup it's still one of the most efficient, but setting up specifically for it, it gets ridiculous.

FFXIGEAR.com

What you're suggesting is that you can make up 75 MND and 18 VIT AND carry your DD set? Must be one lousy DD set if that's the case.

Magic fruit isn't going to decide to cast on your yellow bard or low hp rdm that's missing 100 hp when your 1400 hp war eats a pecking flurry.

First, a wyvern doesn't cast on people in yellow. You obviously don't know how HB works. Second, if a WAR taking flurry from 1400 HP is such a big deal, then he will get a cure before the BRD or RDM; otherwise, he doesn't need the cure (Note: Flurry would have to do 700+ DMG to the WAR).

I see two points going around that are flawed. The first is the Chains = Kill Speed. That is absolutely not the case. If you're not killing fast enough you won't keep the chain, but on the other hand, if you are killing really fast, then you will break the chain due to a lack of mobs. The second flawed notion is the assertion that in order to avoid overkill, a support role that gathers birds is necessary (This is specific to you sir). How is gathering the mobs to kill them faster preventing overkill? If anything, you've substituted the kill power of a third DD with the speed of mob hoarding. Both will result in overkill. If you want to solve the issue of overkill, you do it by decreasing the kill rate instead of hoarding mobs (Which increases kill rate).

[Belgaer]

It's not like you can't still cast disseverment fairlly often, the fact is it's simply not always the most raw damage you can do that decides what's best for the party.

Magic Fruiting the colibri to death is the way to go.

[Plow]

Ok, you're right, the only thing a BLU should ever do in a colibri pt, ever, under any circumstances, no matter what, is stand there and cast disseverment.

No parties ever need more support, the only thing a blu is capable of is damage anyway.

First lets look at what we're dealing with here. One, is this is a practical situation? Outside healers. Two DDs capable of killing mobs so fast (And Apparently always have TP when you're 2 Shotting them...) that the BRD cannot keep up. That same PT is going to invite a BLU. Do you honestly see this as the norm got most players? A lot of people on these boards seem to forget pragmatics when posting here. The classic example is Allah. He always has some DB plan in the works. Could it work? Possibly. Is it practical? Hell no. You're speaking in a far off abstract world that does not exist in game.

And this, my friends, is why I don't merit with people I don't know.


edit: sorry, I just have to add--

I see two points going around that are flawed. The first is the Chains = Kill Speed. That is absolutely not the case. If you're not killing fast enough you won't keep the chain, but on the other hand, if you are killing really fast, then you will break the chain due to a lack of mobs. The second flawed notion is the assertion that in order to avoid overkill, a support role that gathers birds is necessary (This is specific to you sir). How is gathering the mobs to kill them faster preventing overkill? If anything, you've substituted the kill power of a third DD with the speed of mob hoarding. Both will result in overkill. If you want to solve the issue of overkill, you do it by decreasing the kill rate instead of hoarding mobs (Which increases kill rate).

If you do it right you can pull the entire 2 lower shelves and some from the top. Have to be killing at a rate above 4.2 mobs per minute to overrun the entire camp if you don't touch mamools. Goal would generally be 2.5ish-3 mobs per minute with 2 bards bringing in mobs and singing.

The issue is not that every mob is going to get 2 shot, the issue is that enough of them will that you're wasting exp if you don't always have another at the ready.

[Sekundes]

Congrats if you are able to find both floors of birds empty to be able to pull that off.
Most of my ls pt's that we have on birds tend to overkill even on the bottom camp, we generally have to invite a 'leech'(someone who isn't 75 or a job that isn't merit friendly to slow us down enough to not loose chain due to lack of mobs and most of us aren't geared that great anyway, I don't really see any sense in trying to up your dd a bit more on birds as in a decent group your probably killing to fast anyway. But then again I never merit on blu anyway ^^;

[Plow]

That's exactly the kind of thing I'm getting at.

I'm not saying BLU should never be used as a pure DD, I'm saying it's crazy to suggest the only thing they should ever do on birds is pure DD and if they're doing anything else at all they might as well not be there.

[eva00r]

Congrats if you are able to find both floors of birds empty to be able to pull that off.
Most of my ls pt's that we have on birds tend to overkill even on the bottom camp, we generally have to invite a 'leech'(someone who isn't 75 or a job that isn't merit friendly to slow us down enough to not loose chain due to lack of mobs and most of us aren't geared that great anyway, I don't really see any sense in trying to up your dd a bit more on birds as in a decent group your probably killing to fast anyway. But then again I never merit on blu anyway ^^;

Decent party kill only birds. Good party doesn't kill just birds, they also kill Wivres.

[Dimmauk]

Pinecone bomb, MP Drainkiss, and Disserverment are pure win at Colibri camp.

[Kyte]

To be honest I haven't tried Pinecone Bomb there. I am aware of the high damage on weak enemies, just never tried it in exp past 48ish.

[Yvonne]

Merit PT isn't like that, though. Merit camp does great without BLU--so great, in fact, that it's difficult to find invites unless people already know you are a badass--so those normal things that you do on BLU that make it a special job has to go by the wayside, and you have to attune your playstyle so that you can approach the damage output of some other job. This is all I was trying to say.

Wow, that's just fantastic. I think you've answered almost everything (including the all other posts) I had in mind about trying out a merit party on BLU. Thanks a lot guy!

[Yugl]

Congrats if you are able to find both floors of birds empty to be able to pull that off.
Most of my ls pt's that we have on birds tend to overkill even on the bottom camp, we generally have to invite a 'leech'(someone who isn't 75 or a job that isn't merit friendly to slow us down enough to not loose chain due to lack of mobs and most of us aren't geared that great anyway, I don't really see any sense in trying to up your dd a bit more on birds as in a decent group your probably killing to fast anyway. But then again I never merit on blu anyway ^^;

My PTs tend to have access to both the middle/floor/mamools when XPing. It may be the case that some PTs won't have access to both and will overkill (Actually you can overkill when both are available with good DDs). However, you also mentioned that you don't XP on BLU. I don't XP on BLU regularly either, but I have. What kind of PTs are in store for a BLU? AF WARs. Domaru SAMs. If a PT is picking up a BLU, it's probably not a good PT to begin with since DD are bountiful and any respectable group will make sure their DDs are killing to the max.

Decent party kill only birds. Good party doesn't kill just birds, they also kill Wivres.

They kill mamools as well. It's funny how the same PT that is willing to fight Lurkers is unwilling to fight Wivre (Even though when we tried one, we kept the chain). Killing Wivre and mamools is one of the situations in which BLU has to be full on DD.

Plow if that's what you're trying to say, then why didn't you just say it? Instead of making up abstract situations or assuming every BLU has access to a great LS PT, it more helpful to give general advice that any BLU can use. You criticize me for stating that those three events will rarely meet at a nexus when it's a damn fact. Two DD clearing Middle/Floor/Wivre/Mamools with three supports will most likely not invite a BLU. As mentioned earlier, BLU are likely to see terrible PTs since the ones that are capable of killing that fast are likely to invite their DRG/SAM/DRK/WAR/COR/MNK/BRD/RNG friends before even looking for a BLU.

[Dimmauk]

My PTs tend to have access to both the middle/floor/mamools when XPing. It may be the case that some PTs won't have access to both and will overkill (Actually you can overkill when both are available with good DDs). However, you also mentioned that you don't XP on BLU. I don't XP on BLU regularly either, but I have. What kind of PTs are in store for a BLU? AF WARs. Domaru SAMs. If a PT is picking up a BLU, it's probably not a good PT to begin with since DD are bountiful and any respectable group will make sure their DDs are killing to the max.



They kill mamools as well. It's funny how the same PT that is willing to fight Lurkers is unwilling to fight Wivre (Even though when we tried one, we kept the chain). Killing Wivre and mamools is one of the situations in which BLU has to be full on DD.

Plow if that's what you're trying to say, then why didn't you just say it? Instead of making up abstract situations or assuming every BLU has access to a great LS PT, it more helpful to give general advice that any BLU can use. You criticize me for stating that those three events will rarely meet at a nexus when it's a damn fact. Two DD clearing Middle/Floor/Wivre/Mamools with three supports will most likely not invite a BLU. As mentioned earlier, BLU are likely to see terrible PTs since the ones that are capable of killing that fast are likely to invite their DRG/SAM/DRK/WAR/COR/MNK/BRD/RNG friends before even looking for a BLU.

I recently got flamed and rated down on AllakhaZAM for saying that I pull from the other bird camps.

Also, Pinecone bomb cant be reflected, so it is a pretty nice backup sleep.

[Plow]

Plow if that's what you're trying to say, then why didn't you just say it? Instead of making up abstract situations or assuming every BLU has access to a great LS PT, it more helpful to give general advice that any BLU can use. You criticize me for stating that those three events will rarely meet at a nexus when it's a damn fact. Two DD clearing Middle/Floor/Wivre/Mamools with three supports will most likely not invite a BLU. As mentioned earlier, BLU are likely to see terrible PTs since the ones that are capable of killing that fast are likely to invite their DRG/SAM/DRK/WAR/COR/MNK/BRD/RNG friends before even looking for a BLU.

Try reading my comments from the start? It's exactly what I said in the first place slightly reworded without any kind of example.

Are you saying it's better to give "cure-all" advice with no examples and leave people with that?


All I did was give 1 little example of a situation where you might want to do something different, and the rest of the page you guys argued about how no, it's not possible that you would ever want to do something different, and if you're in a situation where you might, you shouldn't be in the group.

[Yugl]

Try reading my comments from the start? It's exactly what I said in the first place slightly reworded without any kind of example.

My post is not the same as what you've been saying. Anyone who has read your comments know you're trying to make BLU a DD/BRD instead of a full out DD.I'll even point to posts where you make such references.

But in the end, a party with 2 pure DD 3 support and a hybrid is going to be more effective than a party with 3 pure dd and 3 support, provided your 2 melee are killing fast enough.

Here you said BLU is better off being a hybrid in a PT when your melees are killing fast enough. As mentioned in my previous post, I disagree with your assertion on two grounds. First, the chances of a BLU finding a good DD PT is not likely. There are plenty of other DDs that can out DMG BLU in full AH gear, and they are abundant. Second, because of this fact, it is unlikely that a PT with a BLU is going to be killing at max speed. Consequently, it is better advice for a BLU to maintain a full DD mode. Moving onto your next point.

Thus far the highest legit exp numbers are from 2 dps + 4 support + outside healing, how you're going to imply that 3 dps + 3 support would somehow be better, I'm really not sure. At this point 2 ah sams can be sufficient dps for 25k/hr, merit situations where the blu would need to be all out pure dps are not top quality groups.


I mean... honestly you could grab 2 melee capable of a top notch level kill speed, bring brd brd rdm, sub sch and fill the WHM role more efficiently than a whm can do it...

Here, you gave two pieces of impractical advice and changed BLU from a DD to a healer. First, if you are XPing with two AH SAMs (Likely scenario), then chances are you're not going to clear the whole zone (Colibri/Mamools/Wivre) without the BLU at their full potential. The worst part of this post is that you suggested a BLU sub SCH and act as a WHM in a set up which does not require one. If you have an outside healer + RDM, or even just an RDM, you have enough cure power. You do not need to sub SCH for extra heals nor act as BRD (Acting as CC) in such a case.

Having pointed all of this out, I will agree that you did not say BLU should never be a full out DD. However, I never made that assertion (This is where you need to pay attention). I am saying that such advice is not pragmatic because the chances of your "example" happening is close to zero. Even if it were the case, obtaining +75 MND +18VIT (This is from a Elvaan's view which has high MND and VIT) and subbing SCH is not the way to go. Lets face it, if there is a PT with an outside healer + two DDs killing fast enough + Mega supports, they're better off with 5 members. I think it should be clear that we do have conflicting views on this situation.

Are you saying it's better to give "cure-all" advice with no examples and leave people with that?

I'm not looking at this from an abstract situation because such situations simply do not exist (Or exist often). It's like telling a bum on the street to go home. Advice should have pragmatic value. I'm not sure what you consider a cure-all situation, but the fact is that the "examples" you bring are unlikely to occur. You are not everyone. Not everyone will have the same situation as you; and I think it's quite obvious from the fact that you didn't know Frightful Roar would not land that you haven't XPed on BLU or have not XPed enough. Everything you've described is something someone with a bit of board knowledge and game mechanics would know. Speak out of experience not conjectures. Give pragmatic advice that decent BLUs can follow. If this is your idea of "cure-all" advice, then yes, "cure-all" advice > examples.

All I did was give 1 little example of a situation where you might want to do something different, and the rest of the page you guys argued about how no, it's not possible that you would ever want to do something different, and if you're in a situation where you might, you shouldn't be in the group.

Shouldn't and wouldn't. Lets face it, you've described a PT where they simply don't need you. If you manage to land a PT fine, but it's not like you're going to contribute to the PT in any way. You might as well afk and watch a move.

[Dimmauk]

The only time I ever EXP party on BLU is with LS members, and we are usually just messing around. I still love to do Blue Burns with LS members, the EXP is nice and easy.

[Kaslo]

This line of discussing got really stale like a page ago... do we really need to continue?

[Plow]

My post is not the same as what you've been saying. Anyone who has read your comments know you're trying to make BLU a DD/BRD instead of a full out DD.I'll even point to posts where you make such references.

I was talking about my post, not your post...

Here you said BLU is better off being a hybrid in a PT when your melees are killing fast enough. As mentioned in my previous post, I disagree with your assertion on two grounds. First, the chances of a BLU finding a good DD PT is not likely. There are plenty of other DDs that can out DMG BLU in full AH gear, and they are abundant. Second, because of this fact, it is unlikely that a PT with a BLU is going to be killing at max speed. Consequently, it is better advice for a BLU to maintain a full DD mode. Moving onto your next point.

The reality of EXP is that when you can cap kill speed, throwing on more damage does not speed up exp, adding more support does. This is an extraordinarily simple concept.

EXACTLY like how when you've got more than enough support, more support will not speed up exp, more raw damage can.

Amazing how there's 2 sides to the same coin I guess...

As far as the rest of that paragraph, what you basically just stated is that BLU shouldn't merit, period, because the best they could possibly do is be a DD that can be outdamaged easily by ah gear no matter how good their gear is. (which is really not the case, but anyway)

Please, explain why being a subpar DD is good, and being an amazing support class is bad.

Here, you gave two pieces of impractical advice and changed BLU from a DD to a healer. First, if you are XPing with two AH SAMs (Likely scenario), then chances are you're not going to clear the whole zone (Colibri/Mamools/Wivre) without the BLU at their full potential. The worst part of this post is that you suggested a BLU sub SCH and act as a WHM in a set up which does not require one. If you have an outside healer + RDM, or even just an RDM, you have enough cure power. You do not need to sub SCH for extra heals nor act as BRD (Acting as CC) in such a case.

First off, I didn't "change BLU from a DD to a healer." BLU is both, not one or the other, as well as a tank.

The ONLY people trying to restrict the roles a BLU can play in any way shape or form are those arguing against me-- I'm doing the exact opposite, suggesting more possible roles.

It's like in your mind you're adding "and should never be a DPS on colibri" to every statement I make, because in your mind you're adding "and should never be a healer or support of any sort on colibri" to your own.

Having pointed all of this out, I will agree that you did not say BLU should never be a full out DD. However, I never made that assertion (This is where you need to pay attention). I am saying that such advice is not pragmatic because the chances of your "example" happening is close to zero. Even if it were the case, obtaining +75 MND +18VIT (This is from a Elvaan's view which has high MND and VIT) and subbing SCH is not the way to go. Lets face it, if there is a PT with an outside healer + two DDs killing fast enough + Mega supports, they're better off with 5 members. I think it should be clear that we do have conflicting views on this situation.

It is just downright foolish to convince yourself that it's "close to zero" chance that you would ever need to do anything other than damage, especially with your repeated assertion that BLU can't be in a good pt and will always be with AH dd.

I really don't know what else to say, that's a just plain thoughtless assertion.

I'm not looking at this from an abstract situation because such situations simply do not exist (Or exist often). It's like telling a bum on the street to go home. Advice should have pragmatic value. I'm not sure what you consider a cure-all situation, but the fact is that the "examples" you bring are unlikely to occur. You are not everyone. Not everyone will have the same situation as you; and I think it's quite obvious from the fact that you didn't know Frightful Roar would not land that you haven't XPed on BLU or have not XPed enough. Everything you've described is something someone with a bit of board knowledge and game mechanics would know. Speak out of experience not conjectures. Give pragmatic advice that decent BLUs can follow. If this is your idea of "cure-all" advice, then yes, "cure-all" advice > examples.

That's just it. I'm not giving any kind of "cure-all" advice for a class like BLU, as I'm not retarded.

Shouldn't and wouldn't. Lets face it, you've described a PT where they simply don't need you. If you manage to land a PT fine, but it's not like you're going to contribute to the PT in any way. You might as well afk and watch a move.

Oddly enough, some of us have friends. Not only that, but some of us can come up with more efficient ways to do things than "throw more RNG."

I really want to know where you get the idea that BLU is a subpar healer. Magic fruit with ~100 mnd since mnd is apparently so hard to come by for mage jobs is still about 30% more efficient than the next most efficient heal, Cure V. Healing Breeze is about 75% as efficient as Cure IV... if it only heals 1 single person rofl... In practice, the difference in raw healing capability between a properly set up blu and a whm or sch is not nearly as big as you make it out to be, and that's what healing at colibri is about.

The difference between a well geared BLU healer and a geared to the teeth WHM is dramatically less than the difference between a well geared BLU dps and an amano sam or bravura war, that's for damn sure.

Not to mention your friendly neighborhood whm or rdm can't head butt, add significant dmg etc.


You want some real "cure-all" advice for BLU? Skip the ToAU shit and go match a good merit pt's exp rates with a couple drgs in ERon where you're still an absurdly overpowered exp job and the outside healer for a 20k+/hr pt can be a 65 blm.


Or, just wise up and stop trying to give "cure-all" advice for the most versatile class in the game by exponential leaps and bounds.

It's amazing to me how people can convince themselves that every pt a BLU is ever involved in is going to have terribly retarded melee and yet have absolutely flawless bards and RDM's. Cuz, you know, good RDM's and BRD's love to party with AH melee.

[azagarth]

blu amazing support... you are mad.

brd awesome support

cor potential to be the best support, and it can dd better then a lot of jobs at same time.

dnc, I really love dncs at birds.... fing sic dmg if they guy knows whats up.

Id take a cor+dnc+rdm+brd+2DD anyday and a blu does not fit any role in that but DD ;D but heck id fill those 2 dd spots with 2h anyhow....

the dnc+cor are well over 1 dd of anytype if they are good, thus your really still at 3+ dd if you look at it that way, meaning blu will fit in just fine as DD. However your magic fruit spam or w/e your idea of blu being support is just utter crap imo.

its your $13 do as you please but do it away from me.