Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Plow]

Really sick of "BLU shouldn't be in merits" being considered some kind of a point when discussing what a BLU should do when they want to merit on BLU.

We get it, 2x relic DPS + cor + 2x bard + rdm doesn't include a BLU. That's nice.

[Yugl]

I was talking about my post, not your post...

If that's the case, then you obviously did not communicate your original message clearly because you had to resort to "That's what I was trying to say"
.

The reality of EXP is that when you can cap kill speed, throwing on more damage does not speed up exp, adding more support does. This is an extraordinarily simple concept.

If you cap kill speed, that is, have the ability to kill all mobs without any left to continue the chain, then nothing you do aside from forcefully gimping the PT will allow you to continue the chain (And consequently increase XP). Hence the part where I said the PT would be better off without the BLU if such is the case. That should be simple enough to understand.

EXACTLY like how when you've got more than enough support, more support will not speed up exp, more raw damage can.

Having too much support and too much kill speed are different concepts. I hope even you can figure this out. Actually I'll help you out. The first is altered by not

As far as the rest of that paragraph, what you basically just stated is that BLU shouldn't merit, period, because the best they could possibly do is be a DD that can be outdamaged easily by ah gear no matter how good their gear is. (which is really not the case, but anyway)

Please, explain why being a subpar DD is good, and being an amazing support class is bad.

So instead of responding to my post, you brush it off then create false claims? Show me where I said BLUs shouldn't merit period (Such a general statement). Did I say they'll be out damaged by anyone wearing AH gear? No. If so, point it out.

If you took the time to consider what I posted instead of brushing it off, you would see that I've been saying the chances of a good party inviting a BLU is unlikely. The only reference to AH Melees I made was actually in your post. Lets take a look at it again and I'll hold your hand through this comprehension process.

Here, you gave two pieces of impractical advice and changed BLU from a DD to a healer. First, if you are XPing with two AH SAMs (Likely scenario), then chances are you're not going to clear the whole zone (Colibri/Mamools/Wivre) without the BLU at their full potential.

Reread and see if you can figure out the two points. Actually I'll do it for you. One, you're likely to PT with AH SAMs. No where did I mention these SAMs would out parse you. Two, if you're PTing with these SAMs, the BLU needs to be at full DD potential to truly clear the zones. Nothing about AH DD > BLU.

First off, I didn't "change BLU from a DD to a healer." BLU is both, not one or the other, as well as a tank.

The moment you set sub SCH over sub NIN you changed BLU from a DD with potential to a lousy DD with heightened MP wastage potential (For Healing/CC in the example you gave). BLU cannot do it all at once. We either do our best in one area or slouch to add terrain. No one has argued against setting the bare minimum spells for support (Even Suiram did not make this point). However, I am exercising caution to the extent to which you change BLU from a DD to a healer.

The ONLY people trying to restrict the roles a BLU can play in any way shape or form are those arguing against me-- I'm doing the exact opposite, suggesting more possible roles.

We understand that, but the fact is that the scenarios you're bringing up in which BLU would play the support are unlikely to happen; and if they did happen, the 6th member is playing the leech no matter what. It's similar to Allah's DB during Ouryu fight. It could work, but it's impractical. Moreover, since said situations, there are better options. Just as a PT has the option to invite CORs > DBing RDM, a PT has the option to forgo the BLU when it's already killing at "top killing speed".

It's like in your mind you're adding "and should never be a DPS on colibri" to every statement I make, because in your mind you're adding "and should never be a healer or support of any sort on colibri" to your own.

No, I said you should not give up so much DD potential for the sake of becoming a support or healer in a PT which apparently has three supports and an outside healer. Toss a few magic fruits here and there sure, but don't put yourself in a situation where that and crowd control is all you can do effectively.

It is just downright foolish to convince yourself that it's "close to zero" chance that you would ever need to do anything other than damage, especially with your repeated assertion that BLU can't be in a good pt and will always be with AH dd.

I didn't say they will always be with AH DD, I said they will likely be with AH DD (And quite frankly that doesn't just hold for BLU). Judging by your previous posts, I would wager that you haven't spent a fair amount of time meriting on BLU outside your LS. You're ignorant of the spell that will even land on Colibris. You're ignorant of the public view on BLU in merit PTs. I'm going to go ahead and call you out as nothing but a theorist. Limited experience with BLU in merits, but enough knowledge about BLU to make "Theories" on how it should work. However, that lack of practicality and experience makes your posts lacking.

That's just it. I'm not giving any kind of "cure-all" advice for a class like BLU, as I'm not retarded.

No you're worse than retarded, you're worthless. At least retards can run races. Did you even read the original question? I'll even post it to save you the trouble.

Oh, quick question for those that get invites as a DD at bird camps. What's the best way to conserve your MP without holding back? I have a lot of experiences in endgame with Ixion, Cerb, etc, but what should my game plan be for meriting? I've spent like almost my whole FFXI career meriting only on BRD, so I'd like to change it up a bit.

Read the bold. Can you read it? Yes? It's about DDing at bird camp. Not playing a fucking half-ass WHM. So yes, you are indeed retarded.

Oddly enough, some of us have friends. Not only that, but some of us can come up with more efficient ways to do things than "throw more RNG."

Some of us can actually answer questions and know what we're talking about. Lets see here. Ignoring the original question and making irrelevant criticisms of those who are actually responding the question. Making up crap about landing Frightful Roat on Colibri. Yes, you sure have it all worked out fine.

I really want to know where you get the idea that BLU is a subpar healer. Magic fruit with ~100 mnd since mnd is apparently so hard to come by for mage jobs is still about 30% more efficient than the next most efficient heal, Cure V. Healing Breeze is about 75% as efficient as Cure IV... if it only heals 1 single person rofl... In practice, the difference in raw healing capability between a properly set up blu and a whm or sch is not nearly as big as you make it out to be, and that's what healing at colibri is about.

Too bad Haste puts WHM above both at the bird camp. That alone makes BLU subpar compared to WHM. Next.

The difference between a well geared BLU healer and a geared to the teeth WHM is dramatically less than the difference between a well geared BLU dps and an amano sam or bravura war, that's for damn sure.

You're comparing a well geared BLU v decked WHM to a well geared BLU v Relic DD? Tell me, how does this relate to the conversation in any way? Both are better than BLU at their respective roles (And quite frankly Relic DD > Most DDs so your point is stupid). Your argument is that because a WHM doesn't outclass BLU's healing as much as a RELIC DD out classes a BLU's melee potential, a BLU is more adept to heal. Is that your idea of an argument? Is that even relevant to the question? No.

Not to mention your friendly neighborhood whm or rdm can't head butt, add significant dmg etc.

Have you even tried Head Butt spam on Colibri? See this is the type of shit people spew when they haven't experienced a Bird Camp PT on BLU. The MP waste is not worth the shitty stun you but on those birds. PTing as BLU DD requires the effective use of MP. As mentioned earlier, this is achieved through using Disseverment as your main spell and MP Absorb. A WHM and RDM may not be able to add direct damage, but Haste (For Recast times and DD) and Dia III aren't there for nothing.

You want some real "cure-all" advice for BLU? Skip the ToAU shit and go match a good merit pt's exp rates with a couple drgs in ERon where you're still an absurdly overpowered exp job and the outside healer for a 20k+/hr pt can be a 65 blm.

I'm fully merited on all my classes and even did a one week merit marathon to cap SCH merits. Out of all those PTs, I've seen ONE PT where there was an outside healer. Again, you keep thinking everyone is you.

Or, just wise up and stop trying to give "cure-all" advice for the most versatile class in the game by exponential leaps and bounds.

Oh and let me guess, if a PT has too much support, they should invite the RDM to melee right? It's like Allah + SenseiFF11 all over again. Nothing but fucking trolls. Again, the question was about BLU DD at Colibri camp, not your fucking "I wanna do it all" BS.

It's amazing to me how people can convince themselves that every pt a BLU is ever involved in is going to have terribly retarded melee and yet have absolutely flawless bards and RDM's. Cuz, you know, good RDM's and BRD's love to party with AH melee.

That proves my point even further. Chances of you obtaining both and having great DD willing to accept a BLU is unlikely. Why tell someone to gear towards a situation unlikely to occur.

[Plow]

If that's the case, then you obviously did not communicate your original message clearly because you had to resort to "That's what I was trying to say"

Reread the shit before you start trying to talk shit about it, you're fucking dumb if you can't see it's exactly the same thing.

If you cap kill speed, that is, have the ability to kill all mobs without any left to continue the chain, then nothing you do aside from forcefully gimping the PT will allow you to continue the chain (And consequently increase XP). Hence the part where I said the PT would be better off without the BLU if such is the case. That should be simple enough to understand.

Except *gasp* find a way to get more mobs.

I mean, seriously, at this point you're narrowing down the original statement I disagreed with (which you, yourself had disagreed with a few posts before) to simply exclude any possible scenarios where it's not correct from the discussion.

Having too much support and too much kill speed are different concepts. I hope even you can figure this out. Actually I'll help you out. The first is altered by not

What?

So instead of responding to my post, you brush it off then create false claims? Show me where I said BLUs shouldn't merit period (Such a general statement). Did I say they'll be out damaged by anyone wearing AH gear? No. If so, point it out.

What you did was say that because they're not the best support job, they should never play a support role. This implies that since they're also not the best DD job, they should never DD. And since nobody needs tanks, that leaves them out of merits completely.

Why is it OK to play as a less than perfect DD but not as a less than pefect support job?

Because you don't want to ever get invited to play that way?

If you took the time to consider what I posted instead of brushing it off, you would see that I've been saying the chances of a good party inviting a BLU is unlikely. The only reference to AH Melees I made was actually in your post. Lets take a look at it again and I'll hold your hand through this comprehension process.

(immediately followed by you quoting yourself talking about how BLU are likely only going to be partied with AH melees...)

Reread and see if you can figure out the two points. Actually I'll do it for you. One, you're likely to PT with AH SAMs. No where did I mention these SAMs would out parse you. Two, if you're PTing with these SAMs, the BLU needs to be at full DD potential to truly clear the zones. Nothing about AH DD > BLU.

More about ah melee... did you forget what the hell you're talking about?

Most importantly, you're not even actually talking about AH melee, you're talking about *bad* AH melee. If you can outparse an AH SAM with a clue and a WAR sub, you're, well, full of shit.

Who's to say running your BLU in a support role isn't going to be the difference in a pickup party of AH dd that aren't retarded being able to sub war or sam instead of nin? Are you really deluded enough to think that magic fruit isn't worth casting when it allows sam sub, or if the situation is such that it allows full time hasso?

The moment you set sub SCH over sub NIN you changed BLU from a DD with potential to a lousy DD with heightened MP wastage potential (For Healing/CC in the example you gave). BLU cannot do it all at once. We either do our best in one area or slouch to add terrain. No one has argued against setting the bare minimum spells for support (Even Suiram did not make this point). However, I am exercising caution to the extent to which you change BLU from a DD to a healer.

I am NOT suggesting "changing" BLU from a DD to a healer.

Honestly, if you can't get it through your head that I'm not saying DD BAD HEALZ GUD, but simply pointing out that it's absurd to completely dismiss the versatility, there's not much point to the discussion.

I mean, you're really not even arguing against any of the actual points I'm making, you're simply trying to find flaws with any examples given.

We understand that, but the fact is that the scenarios you're bringing up in which BLU would play the support are unlikely to happen; and if they did happen, the 6th member is playing the leech no matter what. It's similar to Allah's DB during Ouryu fight. It could work, but it's impractical. Moreover, since said situations, there are better options. Just as a PT has the option to invite CORs > DBing RDM, a PT has the option to forgo the BLU when it's already killing at "top killing speed".

Basically, what you're saying here, is that any scenario where a pt might not get the prime exp because you're in it as a support job is utterly unacceptable and should never happen, but a scenario where a pt won't get the prime exp because you're in it as a DD job is 100% fine.

I get it, you don't want to play as a healer. I leveled SMN in 04, I know how it is. That doesn't make it not viable.

No, I said you should not give up so much DD potential for the sake of becoming a support or healer in a PT which apparently has three supports and an outside healer. Toss a few magic fruits here and there sure, but don't put yourself in a situation where that and crowd control is all you can do effectively.

Shit is situational. Stop trying to find flaws in any example or situation I mention and realize I'm not telling you not to play your BLU the way you want to.

I didn't say they will always be with AH DD, I said they will likely be with AH DD (And quite frankly that doesn't just hold for BLU). Judging by your previous posts, I would wager that you haven't spent a fair amount of time meriting on BLU outside your LS. You're ignorant of the spell that will even land on Colibris. You're ignorant of the public view on BLU in merit PTs. I'm going to go ahead and call you out as nothing but a theorist. Limited experience with BLU in merits, but enough knowledge about BLU to make "Theories" on how it should work. However, that lack of practicality and experience makes your posts lacking.

I don't merit outside LS/friends period. Did it ever occur to you that other people might actually merit within their friends and linkshell, and not exclusively in pickups?

Oh, wait, anything you can't find a valid argument against you have to find a way to simply exclude from the discussion. So I suppose the discussion now is *only* about pickup parties?

Here's a refresher, you've taken the original content that triggered the discussion, which was this:

A lot of times you'll see people advance the opinion that since a BLU has such a nice variety of helpful spells, they should be tossing out Magic Fruits and Head Butts and Hasting themselves, etc. in merits. I agree fully with this view when you're talking about "meritish endgame events" like Nyzul, Salvage, Assault, what have you. But in my view, actual merit PTs are strictly business, and you are basically taking the spot of some other DD that wouldn't have those things, so if the party is well-built they shouldn't need that from you, just the same as if you were on some other job, so you should be able to use your MP to focus just on increasing your overall damage (and thereby increase everyone's EXP/Hour).

And arbitrarily narrowed it down to Colibri only, pickup group only, bad ah dd that get outparsed by blu, with flawless support in order to eliminate any scenario in which you don't have an argument for.

All this, in spite of the fact that you posted disagreeing with that post before I did...

No you're worse than retarded, you're worthless. At least retards can run races. Did you even read the original question? I'll even post it to save you the trouble.



Read the bold. Can you read it? Yes? It's about DDing at bird camp. Not playing a fucking half-ass WHM. So yes, you are indeed retarded.

That was the question, the response clearly had wider implications which sparked the discussion.

Some of us can actually answer questions and know what we're talking about. Lets see here. Ignoring the original question and making irrelevant criticisms of those who are actually responding the question. Making up crap about landing Frightful Roat on Colibri. Yes, you sure have it all worked out fine.

Are you having fun going back to the one mistake I made? Because I'm getting a nice laugh about how I specifically said I wasn't sure about it and you're orgasming over it being a bad idea. Especially when you tag it onto a statement about ignoring the point and making irrelevant criticisms. (of course, considering how I haven't criticized anyone other than your being an ass about the discussion, it's even more amusing)

Too bad Haste puts WHM above both at the bird camp. That alone makes BLU subpar compared to WHM. Next.

It's seriously fucking hard for the RDM to haste 2 people. Like, no way a flawless RDM that never needs any form of healing support whatsoever is ever going to be able to maintain haste on 2 people.

You're comparing a well geared BLU v decked WHM to a well geared BLU v Relic DD? Tell me, how does this relate to the conversation in any way? Both are better than BLU at their respective roles (And quite frankly Relic DD > Most DDs so your point is stupid). Your argument is that because a WHM doesn't outclass BLU's healing as much as a RELIC DD out classes a BLU's melee potential, a BLU is more adept to heal. Is that your idea of an argument? Is that even relevant to the question? No.

I've never said or implied that a BLU is "more adept" to heal. Get it through your fucking head that I'm not trying to tell you you should never be a DD and healing is superior.

You're sitting here saying BLU is NEVER an acceptable choice as a healer because they're not the best, but they're fine as a DD despite not being the best. I'm saying they're fine either way. How that's so damn difficult to get through your head, I really don't know.

Actually at this point I'm pretty sure it's not, you just can't handle the loss of epride in realizing your full page of argument is because it took you that long to figure out that nobody's saying BLU should always heal and never DD.

Have you even tried Head Butt spam on Colibri? See this is the type of shit people spew when they haven't experienced a Bird Camp PT on BLU. The MP waste is not worth the shitty stun you but on those birds. PTing as BLU DD requires the effective use of MP. As mentioned earlier, this is achieved through using Disseverment as your main spell and MP Absorb. A WHM and RDM may not be able to add direct damage, but Haste (For Recast times and DD) and Dia III aren't there for nothing.

Shit is situational. Complicated theory, I know. But, you're right, stuns are never worth casting in exp, ever, period, under any circumstances, no matter what.

I'm fully merited on all my classes and even did a one week merit marathon to cap SCH merits. Out of all those PTs, I've seen ONE PT where there was an outside healer. Again, you keep thinking everyone is you.

How the fuck is that related? I mention a situation where you can put yourself on par with the best merit parties without even needing people with 75 jobs, let alone top notch gear, and your response is that you've had one top notch merit pt in your entire career?

What is going through your head, dude, seriously?

I'm guessing... "must... not... ever... be... wrong... ever... anyone that's wrong once will get it shoved in their face at every opportunity as though it's some kind of argument by idiots like me."

Oh and let me guess, if a PT has too much support, they should invite the RDM to melee right? It's like Allah + SenseiFF11 all over again. Nothing but fucking trolls.

Right, melee RDM is as close to as good as a typical DD as a good support BLU is to a typical WHM. Brilliant argument there. You're right, it really is like Alla. Rate up!

Again, the question was about BLU DD at Colibri camp, not your fucking "I wanna do it all" BS.

The question posed was, the statements that triggered the further discussion were much more encompassing.

The question itself did not mention magic fruit, or even spells to equip outside of the main dd spells, the fact that the discussion went that way before I was ever involved should clue you in that there's more to it than simply the question that triggered the discussion.

If he wanted to exclusively answer the original question, the response would've been 2 sentences.

That proves my point even further. Chances of you obtaining both and having great DD willing to accept a BLU is unlikely. Why tell someone to gear towards a situation unlikely to occur.

Why tell someone to gear towards a situation that fucking sucks? Are you kidding me?

Here's a tip: advancement in this game doesn't come from setting yourself up to succeed exclusively in situations far, far below optimal.

And on that note, I'm done, because the fact that you're willing to argue that you will never need a support heal, and then turn around and use how hard it is to find a good pickup rdm as an argument tells me you don't give a shit whatsoever about a legitimate discussion.

[Plow]

I'll actually add one more thing, in an attempt to simplify the discussion and bring it back to reason.

There are times in random exp parties where technically, the most you could do to speed up the exp for your party is to go help claim mobs before other people do.

Now, does this mean that I'm saying "BLU is a puller, and should be invited to parties exclusively as a puller, and not as a DD?"


Not in the least. In the end, all I'm saying is that shit is situational.

[Belgaer]

This line of discussing got really stale like a page ago... do we really need to continue?

This.


Btw, Pinecone Bomb is long casting, and should really only be used for the sleep effect. Better to use +Acc on it, since it proc's near 100% even without +skill. And even then, it lands for over 200, so it's not horrible. I think the person just meant it's nice for sleeping extra colibri, and it does bonus damage while it's at it.

[ArwynOfOdin]

This.


Btw, Pinecone Bomb is long casting, and should really only be used for the sleep effect. Better to use +Acc on it, since it proc's near 100% even without +skill. And even then, it lands for over 200, so it's not horrible. I think the person just meant it's nice for sleeping extra colibri, and it does bonus damage while it's at it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Pinecone Bomb is effected by Ranged Accuracy, no?

[Belgaer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Pinecone Bomb is effected by Ranged Accuracy, no?

Unless sword skill also adds r.acc to it somehow, that wouldn't explain why pinecone bomb doesn't often miss on it's own. =o

You could be right, I'm not really sure. It just seems weird to me that it seems just as accurate as our other single-hit spells, and yet it's affected by r.acc.

[Ultimagi]

Ranged Physical Blue Magic spells are considered melee attacks. Proof: They miss during Perfect Dodge.

[Suiram]

I didn't know that about perfect dodge, but there's evidence on the other side as well. Like how the BLU ranged spells use fSTR2 instead of fSTR, and how they can crit naturally without SA or being a "chance to crit" spell with CA.

Even assuming you're not mistaken on the PD thing, all that shows is that it's up in the air about whether Acc or Racc is beneficial, absent testing.

[Ultimagi]

The damage is calculated differently, but the accuracy of blue magic has always been that of your main handed weapon. This does not change for ranged spells, they are still use your melee accuracy.

[Suiram]

It could work any number of ways. It could be, as you said, simply the acc of your mainhand weapon. Or it could be something like "Accuracy based on the skill of your main hand weapon + Racc gear". People have reported them having noticeably less accuracy than other spells in the same situation, which is how this Racc theory started getting passed around the first place.

I'm not trying to say it is one way or the other. Just that I haven't actually tested it, I doubt you've tested it, and I haven't seen anyone else test it. So if we're just going to go by whether or not we can simply infer from other factors, "misses during perfect dodge" gets canceled out by "uses fSTR2 and can crit naturally" leaving the question open.

[Antithesis]

The damage is calculated differently, but the accuracy of blue magic has always been that of your main handed weapon. This does not change for ranged spells, they are still use your melee accuracy.

According to Sirrus (Blue Mage friend of mine,) Ranged Blue Magic spells are not calculated based on the accuracy of your main weapon. He has soloed VT / IT Marid's with a Fire Staff using Pinecone Bomb before. This would not be possible if Ranged Spells were calculated based on his staff skill.

Here's the proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GRsdjHuve8

[Yugl]

Reread the shit before you start trying to talk shit about it, you're fucking dumb if you can't see it's exactly the same thing.

Work on your writing and maybe there will be better communication. No matter how smart someone is, he'll never understand that chopping your own chest and drooling mean the same thing. Speak to me when you can communicate better.

Except *gasp* find a way to get more mobs.

I mean, seriously, at this point you're narrowing down the original statement I disagreed with (which you, yourself had disagreed with a few posts before) to simply exclude any possible scenarios where it's not correct from the discussion.

If you're at max kill speed, then you don't even have any mobs because they haven't spawned yet. How are you going to get more mobs when they don't exist? That's exactly the point fool.

What?

Having too much support means you do not kill fast enough due to the overcrowding of support. This can be fixed by replacing support members with DDs. Having too much kill speed means there is simply not enough mobs in the zone to keep up with the kill rate. If two DD alone are enough to reach this max (As in your example), then adding a support will not help this in any case, and may even add to the problem since you'll kill mobs even faster. If 2DD + 3 Support (Note I'm using YOUR example) is enough to clear all the mobs and breaks the chain because they're at max kill speed, you need to either gimp one of the melees or reduce the support that allows them to kill at such a high speed. It's simple logic; more support will not reduce kill speed because the entire idea of support is to increase kill speed.

What you did was say that because they're not the best support job, they should never play a support role. This implies that since they're also not the best DD job, they should never DD. And since nobody needs tanks, that leaves them out of merits completely.

Again, where is the proof? Quote me where I said that because they're not the best support, that they shouldn't play support. You're just making up lies at this point to cover your own ass.

Why is it OK to play as a less than perfect DD but not as a less than pefect support job?

The poster asked how to play DD BLU not support BLU. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

(immediately followed by you quoting yourself talking about how BLU are likely only going to be partied with AH melees...)

Yes, and here is what you claimed I said:

As far as the rest of that paragraph, what you basically just stated is that BLU shouldn't merit, period, because the best they could possibly do is be a DD that can be outdamaged easily by ah gear no matter how good their gear is. (which is really not the case, but anyway)

Again, skimming through isn't helping your case at all. Saying a DD is likely to join a AH DD PT is not the same as saying a DD is worse than AH DDs. Tell me, can you spot the difference between saying a BLU can be out DDed by AH melee and a BLU will be out DDed by any AH melee? That's exactly the difference between what I said and what you're claiming I said. I'll even put those two side by side so you can see what I mean.

This is what you claim I said:

As far as the rest of that paragraph, what you basically just stated is that BLU shouldn't merit, period, because the best they could possibly do is be a DD that can be outdamaged easily by ah gear no matter how good their gear is. (which is really not the case, but anyway)

Most importantly, you're not even actually talking about AH melee, you're talking about *bad* AH melee. If you can outparse an AH SAM with a clue and a WAR sub, you're, well, full of shit.

There are plenty of other DDs that can out DMG BLU in full AH gear, and they are abundant.

What I said was that there are a lot of DD in AH gear that can out damage BLU in merit situations. Does that mean *all* AH DDs will *always* out DMG BLU? No. Does that mean that these AH DDs are *always* bad? No. Some can be quite good since there is a lot of good AH gear (SAM and WAR). So, again, your lies end here.

Who's to say running your BLU in a support role isn't going to be the difference in a pickup party of AH dd that aren't retarded being able to sub war or sam instead of nin? Are you really deluded enough to think that magic fruit isn't worth casting when it allows sam sub, or if the situation is such that it allows full time hasso?

I am NOT suggesting "changing" BLU from a DD to a healer.

Honestly, if you can't get it through your head that I'm not saying DD BAD HEALZ GUD, but simply pointing out that it's absurd to completely dismiss the versatility, there's not much point to the discussion.

DDs are always full timing Hasso when there is a good WHM or RDM. Are your PTs that bad? Even if you can't full time Hasso, magic fruit isn't going to change that because it's 72MP/~450MP (Full DD BLU Gear). You're severely limited by MP and cannot use it enough to truly make that difference.

Actually, if we take this all into context, you're contradicting yourself. First, you claim that in a situation where two DDs are at max killing speed (Breaking the chain because of that) that adding a DD only makes it worse or won't help. Now you're saying that adding a support so they can full time hasso is good. In other words, at first you were against increasing what is already a maxed out killing speed, but now you're saying the purpose of a BLU is to increase Hasso/DMG, and thereby, increase killing speed. Which is it? If it's the first then your role in the PT does not matter unless it slows down kills. If it's the latter, then an all out BLU DD can out DMG the difference between full time hasso and part time hasso.

Now lets look at the bold. A poster asked how to effectively play DD BLU at bird camps. Suiram said use Disseverment when it's up and conserve MP. You disagreed with him and made other points. You suggested that BLU change to sub SCH. You suggested that BLU throw Magic Fruit enough to allow DDs to keep up full time hasso (Even though many do). You suggest that BLU play crowd control and sleep mobs. At the same time, you think you're not changing BLU from the usual /NIN Disseverment MP Conservation machine it should be, to a healer role? At the same time, you think you're answering the question of how to play an effective DD?

Basically, what you're saying here, is that any scenario where a pt might not get the prime exp because you're in it as a support job is utterly unacceptable and should never happen, but a scenario where a pt won't get the prime exp because you're in it as a DD job is 100% fine.

Someone cannot summarize properly. You keep saying "Well basically..." followed by something completely incorrect.

We understand that, but the fact is that the scenarios you're bringing up in which BLU would play the support are unlikely to happen; and if they did happen, the 6th member is playing the leech no matter what.

The scenario you brought up = 2DD + 3 Support at max killing speed. If there's a reason they're not getting max XP, it's because they're killing too fast. Nothing about *adding* a member will change that unless it's a COR or a member that will slow down kills. Remember, max killing speed means the chain breaks because there is nothing to kill. The BRD cannot finds mobs; they simply do not exist. That is what it truly means to have max killing speed. Nothing about the post you quoted suggests that BLU DD > BLU Healer in such a situation. I stated that no matter what the situation, the BLU is a leech because the PT is self-sufficient.

Shit is situational. Stop trying to find flaws in any example or situation I mention and realize I'm not telling you not to play your BLU the way you want to.

Better yet, stop giving bad examples and bad advice. If by playing BLU the way I want to you mean DD, then you're off topic since that was the original question.

I don't merit outside LS/friends period. Did it ever occur to you that other people might actually merit within their friends and linkshell, and not exclusively in pickups?

Oh, wait, anything you can't find a valid argument against you have to find a way to simply exclude from the discussion. So I suppose the discussion now is *only* about pickup parties?

Just because you PT with LS members, that doesn't mean they aren't AH DDs as well. More importantly, it doesn't make sense to tell someone to play BLU based on a situation specific to yourself. In fact, it's arrogant and stupid. "Hey guys DRK can heal itself easy with relic scythe so it doesn't need that many cures". You're ignorant to assume that everyone is in the same situation as yourself. Plain and simple.

Here's a refresher, you've taken the original content that triggered the discussion, which was this:

And arbitrarily narrowed it down to Colibri only, pickup group only, bad ah dd that get outparsed by blu, with flawless support in order to eliminate any scenario in which you don't have an argument for.

You're an idiot. Suiram was responding to the following question:

Oh, quick question for those that get invites as a DD at bird camps. What's the best way to conserve your MP without holding back?

So no, I did not "arbitrarily" reduce it to "Colibri" only and bad merit situations. Colibri camp was in the original question, which you completely missed Mr.ImSoSmart.

My AH DD comment was meant to clash with your example since I'm going by the norm and reality while you're making generally false assumptions. My idea of a BLU merit PT is AH DDs + Healer + 2 Support. Somehow you brought up this notion of 2DD + 3 Support + Outside healer. My scenario is much more likely, and thus, more relevant than yours.

All this, in spite of the fact that you posted disagreeing with that post before I did...

That was the question, the response clearly had wider implications which sparked the discussion.

What is with all these ellipses? Are you like Orochi Lede? I swear you're a combination of Orochi Lede + Allah + SenseiFF11. Overuse of the ellipses. Impractical instructions. Wanting to be versatile in a area where it's unreasonable.

When someone is responding to a question, and you criticize them, make sure you do it within the context of the question. It's retarded to jump into a discussion without knowing the original topic. It's like having a discussion about apples and someone saying they're all red or green while another person tries to argue that some fruits aren't either color.

Are you having fun going back to the one mistake I made? Because I'm getting a nice laugh about how I specifically said I wasn't sure about it and you're orgasming over it being a bad idea. Especially when you tag it onto a statement about ignoring the point and making irrelevant criticisms. (of course, considering how I haven't criticized anyone other than your being an ass about the discussion, it's even more amusing)

Since you obviously missed the point of my post, I'll rephrase it for you. You make numerous errors in trying to explain what a BLU can do in merit PTs. You lack knowledge about the basic functions of BLU in merit PTs (Your Head Butt and Frightful Roar comment prove this). Why is that? It's because you don't merit on BLU. Hence, you are not qualified to give input on this matter. A janitor shouldn't tell a car mechanic how to fix a car. You shouldn't tell BLUs how to play BLU DD.

It's seriously fucking hard for the RDM to haste 2 people. Like, no way a flawless RDM that never needs any form of healing support whatsoever is ever going to be able to maintain haste on 2 people.

If a RDM is already in the PT, what is the point of inviting a WHM? What is the point of inviting more healers? On the same note, if a PT has a BRD like it should, then what is the point of inviting another crowd control member? If a RDM doesn't need any form of healing support, then why would the PT need a BLU/SCH? If a BRD is good, he can keep up songs and find birds without a problem.

In short: Good RDM doesn't need WHM or BLU since he can heal and haste without problems. A good BRD doesn't need BLU for crowd control.

I've never said or implied that a BLU is "more adept" to heal. Get it through your fucking head that I'm not trying to tell you you should never be a DD and healing is superior.

You're sitting here saying BLU is NEVER an acceptable choice as a healer because they're not the best, but they're fine as a DD despite not being the best. I'm saying they're fine either way. How that's so damn difficult to get through your head, I really don't know.

Actually at this point I'm pretty sure it's not, you just can't handle the loss of epride in realizing your full page of argument is because it took you that long to figure out that nobody's saying BLU should always heal and never DD.

Oohhh I pissed off the troll. It's obvious you're grasping at straws for points. You said in your previous post that the disparity between a WHM and BLU is less than a Relic and BLU. What was the point of that argument? Clearly it was to further this BLU/SCH BS you're spewing. That does not answer the question of BLU DDing. More importantly, there is no situation in which a BLU needs to sub SCH and healer/CC unless it's an entirely gimp PT.

Shit is situational. Complicated theory, I know. But, you're right, stuns are never worth casting in exp, ever, period, under any circumstances, no matter what.

If you tried, you would realize that Head Butt's stun duration is absolute shit in merits. In fact, my stuns wear by the time the animation is complete. Again, no experience is causing you to make invalid points.

How the fuck is that related? I mention a situation where you can put yourself on par with the best merit parties without even needing people with 75 jobs, let alone top notch gear, and your response is that you've had one top notch merit pt in your entire career?

Lol? On par with a top-notch PT without LV75s? Top-notch PT without good gear? It takes an outside healer to be on par? You obviously don't know what it means to be top-notch. You certainly cannot read if you're contradicting someone (Suiram) who answered a question about DD BLU with a post about BLU/SCH. You're certainly irrelevant if your post is about PTs with outside healers.

Right, melee RDM is as close to as good as a typical DD as a good support BLU is to a typical WHM. Brilliant argument there. You're right, it really is like Alla. Rate up!

Melee RDM, /WHM COR in a normal set up, and Support BLUs. They're pretty much the same category.

The question posed was, the statements that triggered the further discussion were much more encompassing.

The question was *all* we were discussing. You're the only idiot here doing otherwise.

The question itself did not mention magic fruit, or even spells to equip outside of the main dd spells, the fact that the discussion went that way before I was ever involved should clue you in that there's more to it than simply the question that triggered the discussion.

You're an idiot. Suiram was referring to a typical play style that BLUs use when in a merit-like situation. That included Magic Fruit and other sorts of spells. All he was doing is saying that you won't be as active in merit PTs due to MP conservation and the mechanics of bird camps.

If he wanted to exclusively answer the original question, the response would've been 2 sentences.

Not all questions can be answered in two sentences. Sorry if your 3rd grade teacher has not taught you that yet.

Why tell someone to gear towards a situation that fucking sucks? Are you kidding me?

Poster asked about DD BLU. DD BLU situations tend to be shit. Basically, it's called being on topic you fucking troll.

Here's a tip: advancement in this game doesn't come from setting yourself up to succeed exclusively in situations far, far below optimal.

No, it's setting yourself up to PT in the norm situation. Norm situation for BLU (Since you haven't merited on BLU, I'll tell you once again) is shit. BLU rarely see optimal settings you described. That's plain and simple. You say it's shit, but I'm saying shit is the norm when it comes to PTs that invite BLU. Special cases exist, but since the poster did not mention any, it's stupid to assume something other than the norm.

And on that note, I'm done, because the fact that you're willing to argue that you will never need a support heal, and then turn around and use how hard it is to find a good pickup rdm as an argument tells me you don't give a shit whatsoever about a legitimate discussion.

G to the TFO Troll.

[Ultimagi]

Now that is strange. I have no Throwing skill and I equip throwing items on my Blue Mage, but my ranged Blue Magic doesn't have any problems landing. If its not based off of main hand weapon or ranged weapon, what the hell is it?

[Kaslo]

Now that is strange. I have no Throwing skill and I equip throwing items on my Blue Mage, but my ranged Blue Magic doesn't have any problems landing. If its not based off of main hand weapon or ranged weapon, what the hell is it?

Some sort of "phantom" skill accuracy of like B Ranged Skill or something?

[Seraph]

Now that is strange. I have no Throwing skill and I equip throwing items on my Blue Mage, but my ranged Blue Magic doesn't have any problems landing. If its not based off of main hand weapon or ranged weapon, what the hell is it?

A Blue Wizard did it.

[Belgaer]

The accuracy could be based off of blue magic skill... I suppose... That would be really weird. Maybe attack (damage) is calculated as a ranged attack (though unaffected by r.att in the same way physical is by att), where blue magic skill mods the acc rather than ranged acc or physical acc. It is possible, since it rarely *ever* doesn't proc, unless the mob is immune or resistant to sleep itself, that it's acc is completely based on blue magic skill. This would explain why it still begins to miss on higher level mobs (HNMs and such). But then, would magic accuracy+ then help it not miss? And would a dark staff actually make pinecone bomb MORE accurate? That would be ironic. I have no idea, it's all just speculation.

[ClarkSammich]

I'm out playing with Pincecone Bomb on a T Marid if anyone wants me to try anything.
(nevermind, died.)
Anyways, a few of things I did learn about it:
-Ranged attack doesn't seem to increase damage, no does ranged accuracy seem to increase accuracy. Out of 40 casts in +51 ranged acc I missed 4 casts, out of 40 casts naked I missed 3.
-Damage is extremely consistent even ignoring distance. I casted at 4' through 22' and did 144 each cast.
-The sleep effect doesn't seem to be effected by INT/MND, Magic acc, or beast correlation. All sleeps were from 3 seconds(very rare) to 56 seconds.

Also a note about damage/distance, if I remember right it's fairly noticeable on TW mobs, i.e. 900+ damage at one range, only 700+ at another. So, I'm a bit confused about that.
I started to mess with Feather Storm before I died, but didn't really come up with anything. The one I casted did 167 in dark staff, though.

EDIT: Also going to go DRK/BLU in a bit and see how it fares with lower skill.

[fantasticdan]

When you say naked do you mean without a weapon as well?

[ClarkSammich]

Yeah, 100% naked. Also no food/outside buffs of any kind, just refueling/zephyr mantle.
I can post what I wore/spell set up if needed.