Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Masamune]

Do you have parsed data over semi-constant conditions?

^This + with 95% confidence intervals showing indeed /nin dmg ranges > /xxx dmg ranges.

Plus considering BLU can swap spells stats easily, i don't know where you would get problem keeping constant testing conditions.

Also, do you have a control? i mean do you know expected damage you should get according to VZX formulas ? (i doubt)

[Belgaer]

There is another way to test the number of hits, but is a little bit fiddly and only works up to 3 hits.

Find a NIN mob (Tonberry?) and hit it with a blue magic spell. See how many shadows get eaten.

An update over a year ago changed this. Multi hit blue magic spells take up 1 shadow for all hits now. :/ Apparently, people were complaining about BLU being way over powered in PvP? Lol. Can't think of another reason.

As for parsing, yes, I'm sure I could find the parses on my records, but there would be three problems with it. (1)I can't assure the gear was all actually the exact same, though I'm fairly certain with the two I had in mind did have the same gear. (2)I can't be absolutely sure what my subjobs in the parses were, although I think Disseverment damage and who was in the party with me would help limit it by a very good deal. (3)The spells I had set at the time differed. I didn't need to set for Attack Bonus and I didn't need to Head Butt for Ichi casts, so I set STR spells instead of Battle Dance and Head Butt. I'm pretty sure that was the bigger difference, though I could have had Heat Breath instead of Blitzstral too, and probably did (I usually set it to cap me on Vorpal Blade crit rate DEX).

Yes I had Beast Slayer offhand when I used to try /WAR out in meripo when I could (I have Perdu+Koggel now, which is part of the reason I just /NIN these days), so that's 2 DEX from gear, but as far as accuracy goes, I use sushi (at colibri anyway)in meripos, so my acc would be capped anyway. My Disseverments should be consistent enough in that case. I suppose there's a chance I'm past the fSTR cap, but I really don't think so. Doesn't it require like 150 STR to cap fSTR on Blue Magic? lol I'm not sure what the number is. I was under the impression there is no cap for it, but that would be the only simple explanation.

As far as the difference in STR versus DEX that I had, no matter how I look at it, the math is in STR's favor... So I really don't think the DEX would make that big of a difference, and I believe it would actually be lower than the STR setup.

This will need fresh testing, perhaps just on Lesser Colibri for higher numbers and , but does anyone else notice a difference?

[Kyte]

Yes I had Beast Slayer offhand when I used to try /WAR out in meripo when I could

You're very talented >_>;

Anywho, probable wording error aside, the fSTR cap is 22 for non-ranged physical spells- it's difficult to reach. I've noticed a slight increase in damage from multihitters compared to using other subs (SA+spell aside). However, this is likely just due to Koggelmander and It has never been an increase that was truly notable.

[Belgaer]

You're very talented >_>;

Anywho, probable wording error aside, the fSTR cap is 22 for non-ranged physical spells- it's difficult to reach. I've noticed a slight increase in damage from multihitters compared to using other subs (SA+spell aside). However, this is likely just due to Koggelmander and It has never been an increase that was truly notable.

No no, I mean that back before I got Koggelmander (IE: was using Beast Slayer offhand when I was /NIN so it was interfering a bit with my Perdu Hanger's much higher DPS), if I could get away with it, I'd /WAR for the heck of it. >.>

[Kaslo]

An update over a year ago changed this. Multi hit blue magic spells take up 1 shadow for all hits now. :/ Apparently, people were complaining about BLU being way over powered in PvP? Lol. Can't think of another reason.

I thought that was only in PvP areas. On mobs it takes shadows in the amount of hits, on some AOE will take multiple shadows.

[Sho]

Uhhh... AOE Blue Magic > Blink > Multihits Blue Magic > Utsusemi.

No matter the number of hits, one Blink shadow will absorb all. However Multihit spells will tear through Utsusemi, and usually land 1-2 hits afterwards if it's Disseverment based on Ni and NIN main.

[TheMysteriousX]

An update over a year ago changed this. Multi hit blue magic spells take up 1 shadow for all hits now. :/ Apparently, people were complaining about BLU being way over powered in PvP? Lol. Can't think of another reason.

Well shit

OK, really grasping at straws now, but did you factor in Subtle Blow when you used the TP given method?

The last and final idea I can come up with is that the damage of BLU magic somehow/some reason considers weapon delay. But that's a really retarded idea.

[Yugl]

I personally chalk this up to parsing error. Without a very controlled environment, you're going to have minor errors that will affect the parse. Also, Sushi may or may not cap your ACC depending on the sushi type, your merits, and gear selection. Other factors to consider are:

- Angon
- Dia II/III
- Other DEF down debuffs
- Killing the mob off with the multihit spell

[Masamune]

I personally chalk this up to parsing error. Without a very controlled environment, you're going to have minor errors that will affect the parse. Also, Sushi may or may not cap your ACC depending on the sushi type, your merits, and gear selection. Other factors to consider are:

- Angon
- Dia II/III
- Other DEF down debuffs
- Killing the mob off with the multihit spell

This, and for any testing in general i would try to avoid any multihit spells, because they immply oneshot testing on rabbits for like 3x the time if you used a single hit spell elsewhere nonstop.
Also single hit spells allow tester to have a better control on expected output, not multihit spell definitely lol (especially if it can crit).

Talking about expected results, none of you answered my post above (about known pDIF for BluSpells), i even read someone else talking about fSTR for BluSpells without even mentioning on which mob. /facepalm.

[Kyte]

Talking about expected results, none of you answered my post above (about known pDIF for BluSpells), i even read someone else talking about fSTR for BluSpells without even mentioning on which mob. /facepalm.

He asked if he was likely to be passed the fSTR cap or if there was one; I was merely citing what said cap is and how hard it is to reach it.

As for the pDIF of physical spells- Your question isn't being answered because no one really knows. Attack values for spells are still a mystery.

[Yugl]

So the fSTR cap is 22? News to me. Kyte is right about the pDIF stuff though. I'll PM you a truckload of data Suiram had on CB to see if you can calculate the pDIF though.

[Kyte]

Yes, the fSTR cap is cited in the very same link you've posted several times >_>;

22 for normal physical, 44 for ranged (due to fSTR2)

[Masamune]

As for the pDIF of physical spells- Your question isn't being answered because no one really knows. Attack values for spells are still a mystery.

so what do you conclude from that, in terms of correctly setting up testing conditions ?

[Kyte]

First it would be useful to know exactly how blue magic skill factors into attack. Blue magic used as a sub does lower damage than a BLU main to things higher in level.

I think this might work as a test:

1)Find a monster with a known VIT and Defense where "Attack" would be likely to be uncapped for a 37 BLU, but capped for a 75 BLU. Something ~50 would be good.

2)Pick a single hit spell that's low enough to have its damage capped by level 37. Sprout Smack should work.

3)Standardize stats

4)Do a large data set.

I think from there you could figure out the PDIF difference and figure out how much "attack" the /37BLU had that came from blue magic skill.


If this works as a test, then it would still only tell half the story; more than likely individual spells have their own attack bonuses (or cRatio bonuses).

[Yugl]

Idea for thought (Just throwing this out since I myself wouldn't know how to manipulate this):

If BLU Skill is what acts as the Base DMG for Spells, then could anything come out of a testing similar in nature to the Critical hit test? Since BLU physical spells base their ACC on melee ACC, it might be possible for someone with a BLU sub (But no BLU skill) and Foot Kick to test this. Essentially, you would have someone with a base DMG:0 (Or 1?) weapon. Any ideas from this?

[Kyte]

Essentially, you would have someone with a base DMG:0 (Or 1?) weapon.

Not sure of the answer to the full question, but the minimum base damage is 3, much like H2H.

[Yugl]

Alright, so what exactly are we trying to figure out?

We have (D) = (B+fSTR+WSC)*("Multiplier")

I am correct to assume we want to figure out the multiplier? If so, wouldn't it be possible to reduce the first half to 1 and thus have (1)*(Multiplier)?

If that works, and negative fSTR is possible (Not every sure about this one), couldn't we make it such that someone with a minuscule BLU Skill could reduce their fSTR to such levels that it in combination with the WSC (Would have to reduce this somehow as well) the result is 1?

[Belgaer]

Talking about expected results, none of you answered my post above (about known pDIF for BluSpells), i even read someone else talking about fSTR for BluSpells without even mentioning on which mob. /facepalm.

I was using Greater Colibri for examples earlier and I guess I just forgot to say I was still speaking about them. Sorry about that. Basically, I was under the impression your STR had to be around 80~ over the target's VIT for fSTR to cap, but that could be a myth. It could have more to do with decreasing returns (very soft cap) than an actual hard cap. Though if it is a soft cap, I imagine it's closer to 50 above target VIT and gradually becomes more decreasing.

[Kyte]

What can theoritically cap (although it won't on higher level enemies) is the fSTR or fSTR2; the spell's damage can still go higher through the secondary mods.

I was under the impression your STR had to be around 80~ over the target's VIT for fSTR to cap

This correct; dSTR caps at 84.

I am correct to assume we want to figure out the multiplier?

Ya that would be the goal; I'm just not sure how you would go about it.

[VZX]

fSTR cap on blue magic is pretty high up there (30-32, IIRC). I think I've added the blue magic fSTR cap information on BG Wiki blue magic page (taking the info from Releena's test)