Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Belgaer]

I could have missed it, but I'm sure at least on the Blue Magic Notes page it says...

From Doval's test, it seems that the fSTR and fSTR2 of blue magic does not have a cap. Or, if there exist a cap, it's relatively high for small D of spell.

Also, Cannonball is spelled wrong four times on that page. ;P

EDIT: Hmmm, on the wiki version, it does speak of capping at 22 though (all except Smite of Rage).


I have a question about Chain Affinity. We know that it doubles mods... But I've always wondered; does it double mods on all hits of a spell? It seems to double (and more based on TP) single-fold spells, but for a spell like Disseverment where TP doesn't affect the damage, it doesn't double it at all. Wouldn't this be evidence that CA only increases the mods for the first hit? Of course, I'm taking into consideration that the mods are lower, but even so there are two of them and it seems to me there should be anywhere from a 30%-40% increase, and there doesn't seem to be. It seems to be closer to 25%. Now if the first hit of the spell is indeed the strongest, much like we see in many weaponskills, this would add up.

[Kyte]

It seems to double (and more based on TP) single-fold spells, but for a spell like Disseverment where TP doesn't affect the damage, it doesn't double it at all

No, it shouldn't double it. Example D values for Disseverment:

Let's say you have:

STR: 62+48= 110
DEX: 63+32= 95
Blue magic skill: 307---> 69 D
Alpha= .83

I'll say the monster's VIT is 66 and it is neutral to piercing damage.
dSTR= 110-66=44 ----> fSTR=11

W/o CA:

floor(D+fSTR+WSC*2) * Multiplier

floor(69+11+((.20*110+.20*95).83))*1.5
floor(69+11+((22+19).83)*1.5
floor(80+(41*.83))*1.5
floor(114.03)*1.5
114*1.5= 171

With CA

floor(69+11+((.20*110+.20*95)*2*.83))*1.5
floor(80+(82*.83))*1.5
floor(80+68.06)*1.5
148*1.5= 222

171 versus 222, quite far from double. Factoring in the fact that subsequent hits only get a 1 multiplier unless there's monster correlation:

Without CA:

171+(114*4)= 627

With CA:

222+(148*4)= 814

627 versus 814, a 23% difference- This is pretty much what you've probably seen. If you have enchainment merits, then that will help you hit that higher end better during CA.

If we say this monster is weak to piercing, then that makes it 783.75 versus 1017.5. This is pretty close to what Disseverment does on Greater Colibri.

Of course PDIF would further modify this, but I think you get the idea.

(hope I didn't fuck my math up >_>; )


EDIT: Cosmetic Error fixed, thanks

EDIT2: Oh wait, that actually was right, I just combined the doubled mod coefficient and the alpha value

[Kyte]

Now, let's take all that and apply it to a different spell, CA+Vertical Cleave:

Same monster VIT as before, 66

STR: 117
skill: 307
fSTR: 12


floor(69+12+(117*.83))*3
178*3=534

This is what I'm more interested in: what is the PDIF (or cRatio bonus) bonus that certain spells obviously have? CA Vcleave in merits can hit about 1000, meaning it must have a higher attack value than Disseverment.

[Nightfyre]

Vertical Cleave: the Tachi: Gekko of BLU spells? Can't say it would surprise me.

Cosmetic error, you entered 2.83 for alpha on the first line of with CA.

[Kyte]

Something like that, although not as reliable. Maybe more like Howling Fist? I think it's probably an attack bonus, rather than a cRatio bonus. I don't know what the stats are for Greater Colibris, but I think 66 is probably pretty close to what their actual VIT is.

Using the above numbers to make some rough conclusions:

CA+Disseverment= 1017.
-PDIF is probably just over 1 most of the time, as Disseverment maxes out at about 1200 for me.

CA+Vertical Cleave= 534.
-Sometimes I do hit about this, but very often I hit a bit over 1000. PDIF is around 2.0 for those highs.

[Yugl]

Something like that, although not as reliable. Maybe more like Howling Fist? I think it's probably an attack bonus, rather than a cRatio bonus. I don't know what the stats are for Greater Colibris, but I think 66 is probably pretty close to what their actual VIT is.

Using the above numbers to make some rough conclusions:

CA+Disseverment= 1017.
-PDIF is probably just over 1 most of the time, as Disseverment maxes out at about 1200 for me.

CA+Vertical Cleave= 534.
-Sometimes I do hit about this, but very often I hit a bit over 1000. PDIF is around 2.0 for those highs.

Damage varies with TP?

[Kyte]

Its multiplier stays constant; it's the attack bonus that can vary.

[Yugl]

Its multiplier stays constant; it's the attack bonus that can vary.

I mean the spell description. Damage varies with TP. Since it's assumed that this effect only activates during CA, it's plausible to assume that it's playing a role in modifying that damage (Whether significantly or insignificantly).

Edit: To clarify one more, I don't mean the modifier will vary by TP since as you mentioned, it stays 3 for any TP level, I mean the spell description says damage varies with TP; so, it's reasonable to suggest that is causing the variance in damage.

[Kyte]

I generally always use it with the same value of TP though (about 61) when on /NIN, since I really only self-SC with it. The variance was still present pre-enchainment merits when I mostly used it with ~11 TP, although the merits have helped me hit the higher end more often.

The main point I'm trying to make is that different spells seem to have different attack values attached to them. Death Scissors is another spell that definitely has an attack bonus, which is this case isn't modified by TP. It's D value at 300%, given the same conditions as the Vertical Cleave example above, is 641. Now granted it's basically never used without SA, but the guaranteed critical alone can't account for the typical ~2k+ (my example uses less STR than someone trying to maximize Death Scissors would have) unless you consider an attack bonus of sorts on top of it. PDIF is definitely being boosted to 3 on something where the PDIF of some other spells would certainly be lower.

[Masamune]

Nice calculated examples Kyte, much clearer for us readers.

But i'm still confused with following posts about Vcleave, are you guys talking with or without CA ??
Like Yugl said, Vcleave (and Dscissors) have a description implying a dmg multiplier other spells don't have, which might activate only during CA ?

In the calculation examples Kyte posted above, an attack boost Vcleave would receive under "yet to be determined" conditions can only be translated into the pDIF multiplier. Possible conclusion: pDIF for Vcleave/Dscissors isnot constant (maybe under CA only, but constant otherwise?)
Anyways, all i mean is that other terms of the equations don't have anything to do with Attack boost or cRatio.

EDIT: a ok after rereading i think i found what you forgot Kyte in your calculations:

floor(D+fSTR+WSC*2) * Multiplier

...should be: floor(floor((D+fSTR+WSC*2)* fTP Multiplier) *pDIF

As a comparison, fTPmultiplier is 1 for multihits WSs but varying with TP for "Damage vary with TP" described WSs (same for blu spells?) so why say it's constant?

or 2 other possibilities would be:
a) fTP stays constant but pDIF gets a boost like some poeple suggested,
b) fTP varies with TP under CA, AND pDIF gets a boost.

/em still confused.

[Belgaer]

The main point I'm trying to make is that different spells seem to have different attack values attached to them. Death Scissors is another spell that definitely has an attack bonus, which is this case isn't modified by TP. It's D value at 300%, given the same conditions as the Vertical Cleave example above, is 641. Now granted it's basically never used without SA, but the guaranteed critical alone can't account for the typical ~2k+ (my example uses less STR than someone trying to maximize Death Scissors would have) unless you consider an attack bonus of sorts on top of it. PDIF is definitely being boosted to 3 on something where the PDIF of some other spells would certainly be lower.

It might seem a little far-fetched, but perhaps Death Scissors receives a virtual bonus to critical hit damage when under CA due to it's calculation, as well as the increase to damage? Perhaps I'm the only one or I'm crazy, but a 300% CA Death Scissors usually does less than a 300% CA Vertical Cleave. DS only seems to do more when Sneak Attack is involved, strangely. Though... admittedly, I don't use Death Scissors very often.

[Kyte]

Nice calculated examples Kyte, much clearer for us readers.

But i'm still confused with following posts about Vcleave, are you guys talking with or without CA ??
Like Yugl said, Vcleave (and Dscissors) have a description implying a dmg multiplier other spells don't have, which might activate only during CA ?

In the calculation examples Kyte posted above, an attack boost Vcleave would receive under "yet to be determined" conditions can only be translated into the pDIF multiplier. Possible conclusion: pDIF for Vcleave/Dscissors isnot constant (maybe under CA only, but constant otherwise?)
Anyways, all i mean is that other terms of the equations don't have anything to do with Attack boost or cRatio.

EDIT: a ok after rereading i think i found what you forgot Kyte in your calculations:



As a comparison, fTPmultiplier is 1 for multihits WSs but varying with TP for "Damage vary with TP" described WSs (same for blu spells?) so why say it's constant?

or 2 other possibilities would be:
a) fTP stays constant but pDIF gets a boost like some poeple suggested,
b) fTP varies with TP under CA, AND pDIF gets a boost.

/em still confused.

I left PDIF off initially because that's not really completely calculable with the current known information.

For Vertical Cleave, the multiplier is known to be a constant 3.0; rather, the attack power is increased with more TP, which helps it get that PDIF increase. Even without TP, however, it is more than capable of hitting max, non-critical PDIF on merit-level targets. I talked about CA+Vertical Cleave because I almost never cast Vertical Cleave when /NIN without CA, so I can't really give any anecdotal evidence one way or the other about said PDIF increase only being present during CA.

It might seem a little far-fetched, but perhaps Death Scissors receives a virtual bonus to critical hit damage when under CA due to it's calculation, as well as the increase to damage? Perhaps I'm the only one or I'm crazy, but a 300% CA Death Scissors usually does less than a 300% CA Vertical Cleave. DS only seems to do more when Sneak Attack is involved, strangely. Though... admittedly, I don't use Death Scissors very often.

My general rule has always been to never consider Death Scissors without Chain Affinity, and I can count the number of times I've used it without Sneak Attack on one hand, so I can't really comment on this either. I think it has a consistent (relatively large) attack value, but I'm not really sure.



For Disseverment
1) I have the most experiance using it, and I pretty much know what kind of damage I can expect versus, say, Greater Colibri.
2) The fTP multiplier does stay constant, with a 1.5 multiplier on the first hit and a 1.0 on subsequent hits, much like multihit WS

This spell however never hits a 2.0 PDIF versus a merit level target, as I've never done more than 1200ish on a Greater Colibri.

If a collection of data points were done on targets with known stats, then I think you could work backwards from the PDIF to determine what the attack power for individual spells is, which is one of the things I'm interested in.

[Kaslo]

Why are we discussing all this when we could just test the hypothesis on NIN mobs?

[Masamune]

Why are we discussing all this when we could just test the hypothesis on NIN mobs?

Because that's wrong way of testing. for multihits, oneshotted mobs are best test subjects.

[Masamune]

For Vertical Cleave, the multiplier is known to be a constant 3.0; rather, the attack power is increased with more TP, which helps it get that PDIF increase

Should i understand that testing Vcleave without CA would never let me "see" the pDIF increase that spell benefits from TP ?

In that case that would mean have to change the equation notations, since semantically speaking, "fTP" is a function of TP, so depends from CA, and saying it stays constant no matter TP is when CA activated sound weird to me :s
Also i don't see where you get that fTP= 3.0 @ TP150% & 300% ? unknown values on both wikis.

In my opinion, i would bet 1gil if someone test Vcleave, will obtain 3.0 @ TP0%, but like maybe 4.5? @ TP150% and 6.0? @ TP300% ? (for the "Multiplier")

Also, there is something i quite don't understand: where in the equation the mob's defense is accounted? for example a Vcleave on rabbit ronfaure won't deal same dmg than on a Gcolibri ?

[Kaslo]

Because that's wrong way of testing. for multihits, oneshotted mobs are best test subjects.

How so? the theory is that dual wield can add a second strike from physical blue magic. If a NIN mob absorbs 2 shadows on a single hit spell then the theory is correct, if it only ever does one (over a large sample) then the theory is wrong. How is that a wrong test?

[Kyte]

Should i understand that testing Vcleave without CA would never let me "see" the pDIF increase that spell benefits from TP ?

In that case that would mean have to change the equation notations, since semantically speaking, "fTP" is a function of TP, so depends from CA, and saying it stays constant no matter TP is when CA activated sound weird to me :s
Also i don't see where you get that fTP= 3.0 @ TP150% & 300% ? unknown values on both wikis.

In my opinion, i would bet 1gil if someone test Vcleave, will obtain 3.0 @ TP0%, but like maybe 4.5? @ TP150% and 6.0? @ TP300% ? (for the "Multiplier")

Also, there is something i quite don't understand: where in the equation the mob's defense is accounted? for example a Vcleave on rabbit ronfaure won't deal same dmg than on a Gcolibri ?

Sorry, I probably mixed up "fTP" and "Multiplier" a few times in my post, since for most other spells that are "Damage Varies with TP," they are equivalent.

Anyways, the reference I'm using is this:http://www.neko-sentai.com/images/BlumageNFO.htm
Both wiki's info is derived from it, although guessing from your response, there are some slight differences.

The reason why you can ascertain that the fTP is the attack value, rather than the Multiplier, for Vertical Cleave is that a 0% SACA+Vertical Cleave does about the same damage as a 300% SACA+Vertical on weak enemies. The same is not true for Death Scissors, which does have its fTP attached to the multiplier.

[Masamune]

How so? the theory is that dual wield can add a second strike from physical blue magic. If a NIN mob absorbs 2 shadows on a single hit spell then the theory is correct, if it only ever does one (over a large sample) then the theory is wrong. How is that a wrong test?

o sorry i mixed asumptions, had my mind on blu pDIF/fTP, not that lolone... /care

[Masamune]

The reason why you can ascertain that the fTP is the attack value, rather than the Multiplier, for Vertical Cleave is that a 0% SACA+Vertical Cleave does about the same damage as a 300% SACA+Vertical on weak enemies. The same is not true for Death Scissors, which does have its fTP attached to the multiplier.

Interesting, i would start by that actually, just to have at least a "format" onto where to insert mob's def and TPs into the equation.

An explanation of the 0% SACA VC did same dmg as a 300% one was maybe already capped, or the tester did only 1-3 casts...

[Belgaer]

How so? the theory is that dual wield can add a second strike from physical blue magic. If a NIN mob absorbs 2 shadows on a single hit spell then the theory is correct, if it only ever does one (over a large sample) then the theory is wrong. How is that a wrong test?

Actually, the theory was that Dual Wield affects multiple hit spells only, as single hit spells would be much more noticable, and would make /NIN better than /THF for Cannonballing and the like. Or...at least that /NIN affects multi hit spells in a strange way. Like I said, I've noticed my multi hits always do noticeably more damage as /NIN than anything else.