Blue Mage: Best thread ever

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 13:42

Originally Posted by Kaslo

I have been using Apoc/MM/RR, I would use SS if I didn't need MP.

Why do you need the MP? I never use MM anymore, with temp items, battery charge and refresh gear between fights you really don't need it at all.

RR/SS/Apoc. GH is better if you're really concerned about your TP feed or if you're /MNK, (I really don't understand this new /MNK thing going on, it seems really impractical and clunky), but in my experience SS pulls ahead for overall damage. The extra HP doesn't hurt either. You really shouldn't have a sore need for MM when you have an Almace.

I don't see how its impractical and clunky? 60% counter rate, more HP and no downtime casting shadows or sheihei/fast cast items for shadows taking an inventory slot (an issue for me at least, I am packed with items on BLU always.) Not counting the extra dmg from counters in there as well.

**Yugl** · 2011-06-15 13:52

The lack of DWIII and excess damage taken from TP moves undermines the utility of the sub MNK. Perhaps that's what he means.

Code:

<sets>
    <group name="Abyssea-R">
        <set name="Idle" baseset="PDT">
            <hands>Serpentes Cuffs</hands>
            <feet>Serpentes Sabots</feet>
            <legs>Homam Cosciales</legs>
            <body>Mavi Mintan +2</body>
            <head>Wivre Hairpin</head>
        </set>
        <set name="PDT">
            <main>Shamshir +2</main>
            <body>Dst. Harness +1</body>
            <neck>Twilight Torque</neck>
            <head>Darksteel Cap +1</head>
            <legs>Dst. Subligar +1</legs>
            <back>Umbra Cape</back>
            <sub>Genbu's Shield</sub>
            <lring>Dark Ring</lring>
            <rring>Dark Ring</rring>
        </set>
        <set name="MDT">
            <rring>Dark Ring</rring>
            <neck>Twilight Torque</neck>
            <rear>Merman's Earring</rear>
            <hands>Coral Fng. Gnt. +1</hands>
            <legs>Coral Cuisses +1</legs>
            <feet>Coral Greaves +1</feet>
            <lring>Dark Ring</lring>
            <lear>Merman's Earring</lear>
        </set>
        <set name="Fast Cast">
            <main>Isador</main>
            <body>Mavi Mintan +2</body>
            <legs>Homam Cosciales</legs>
        </set>
        <set name="TP-Refresh">
            <body>Mavi Mintan +2</body>
        </set>
        <set name="Haste">
            <head>Mavi Kavuk +2</head>
            <body>Mavi Mintan +2</body>
            <legs>Mavi Tayt +2</legs>
            <hands>Homam Manopolas</hands>
            <feet>Homam Gambieras</feet>
            <waist>Twilight Belt</waist>
        </set>
        <set name="TP-Haste">
            <head>Mavi Kavuk +2</head>
            <body>Loki's Kaftan</body>
            <legs>Mavi Tayt +2</legs>
            <hands>Homam Manopolas</hands>
            <ammo>Thunder Sachet</ammo>
            <feet>Homam Gambieras</feet>
            <waist>Twilight Belt</waist>
            <back>Atheling Mantle</back>
            <rear>Suppanomimi</rear>
            <rring>Rajas Ring</rring>
            <neck>Orochi Nodowa</neck>
            <lear>Brutal Earring</lear>
            <lring>Epona's Ring</lring>
        </set>
        <set name="TP-Evasion" baseset="TP-Haste">
            <hands>Ocelot Gloves</hands>
            <legs>Ocelot Trousers</legs>
            <rear>Novia Earring</rear>
            <back>Boxer's Mantle</back>
            <neck>Torero Torque</neck>
            <lear>Musical Earring</lear>
        </set>
        <set name="Full Evasion" baseset="TP-Evasion" />
        <set name="Chant du Cygne">
            <body>Loki's Kaftan</body>
            <hands>Enkidu's Mittens</hands>
            <rring>Rajas Ring</rring>
            <back>Atheling Mantle</back>
            <rear>Suppanomimi</rear>
            <waist>Cuchulain's Belt</waist>
            <legs>Tumbler Trunks</legs>
            <feet>Lithe Boots</feet>
            <head>Aias Bonnet</head>
            <neck>Snow Gorget</neck>
            <lear>Brutal Earring</lear>
            <lring>Epona's Ring</lring>
            <ammo>Thunder Sachet</ammo>
        </set>
        <set name="Sanguine Blade">
            <body>Teal Saio</body>
            <hands>Mavi Bazuband +2</hands>
            <feet>Mavi Basmak +2</feet>
            <rear>Hecate's Earring</rear>
            <rring>Diamond Ring</rring>
            <legs>Teal Slops</legs>
            <waist>Penitent's Rope</waist>
            <back>Potentia Cape</back>
            <head>Teal Chapeau</head>
            <neck>Artemis' Medal</neck>
            <lear>Moldavite Earring</lear>
            <lring>Spiral Ring</lring>
        </set>
        <set name="Savage Blade" baseset="WS Base">
            <body>Magus Jubbah +1</body>
            <hands>Heafoc Mitts</hands>
            <legs>Mavi Tayt +2</legs>
            <feet>Areion's Gamashes</feet>
            <waist>Cuchulain's Belt</waist>
            <rear>Suppanomimi</rear>
            <back>Atheling Mantle</back>
            <rring>Rajas Ring</rring>
            <head>Aias Bonnet</head>
            <neck>Kubira Beads</neck>
            <lear>Brutal Earring</lear>
            <lring>Spiral Ring</lring>
        </set>
        <set name="Expiacion" baseset="WS Base" />
        <set name="Vorpal Blade" baseset="Chant du Cygne" />
        <set name="WS Base">
            <body>Magus Jubbah +1</body>
            <hands>Heafoc Mitts</hands>
            <legs>Mavi Tayt +2</legs>
            <feet>Areion's Gamashes</feet>
            <waist>Cuchulain's Belt</waist>
            <rear>Suppanomimi</rear>
            <back>Atheling Mantle</back>
            <rring>Rajas Ring</rring>
            <head>Aias Bonnet</head>
            <neck>Kubira Beads</neck>
            <lear>Brutal Earring</lear>
            <lring>Spiral Ring</lring>
        </set>
        <set name="Blue Magic Skill">
            <body>Magus Jubbah +1</body>
            <ammo>Mavi Tathlum</ammo>
            <hands>Symbios Gloves</hands>
            <neck>Mavi Scarf</neck>
            <legs>Mavi Tayt +2</legs>
            <head>Mirage Keffiyeh</head>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-STR" baseset="Blue Magic Skill">
            <hands>Heafoc Mitts</hands>
            <head>Aias Bonnet</head>
            <neck>Ire Torque</neck>
            <rring>Rajas Ring</rring>
            <rear>Tmph. Earring +1</rear>
            <waist>Warwolf Belt</waist>
            <back>Potentia Cape</back>
            <feet>Areion's Gamashes</feet>
            <lring>Strigoi Ring</lring>
            <lear>Triumph Earring</lear>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-DEX-N" baseset="Physical-STR">
            <back>Vigilance Mantle+1</back>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-DEX-CA" baseset="Physical-DEX-N">
            <head>Mavi Kavuk +2</head>
            <body>Loki's Kaftan</body>
            <hands>Enkidu's Mittens</hands>
            <lring>Jupiter's Ring</lring>
            <feet>Lithe Boots</feet>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-AGI-N" baseset="Physical-STR">
            <hands>Enkidu's Mittens</hands>
            <neck>Kubira Beads</neck>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-AGI-CA" baseset="Physical-AGI-N">
            <head>Mavi Kavuk +2</head>
            <body>Loki's Kaftan</body>
            <feet>Lithe Boots</feet>
            <hands>Ocelot Gloves</hands>
            <rear>Suppanomimi</rear>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-STR:DEX-N" baseset="Physical-STR">
            <back>Vigilance Mantle+1</back>
            <neck>Kubira Beads</neck>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-STR:DEX-CA" baseset="Physical-STR:DEX-N">
            <head>Mavi Kavuk +2</head>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-STR:VIT-N" baseset="Physical-STR">
            <lring>Spiral Ring</lring>
        </set>
        <set name="Physical-STR:VIT-CA" baseset="Physical-STR:VIT-N">
            <head>Mavi Kavuk +2</head>
        </set>
        <set name="Head Butt-MagicACC" baseset="TP-Haste">
            <body>Mavi Mintan +2</body>
            <lring>Spiral Ring</lring>
            <rring>Diamond Ring</rring>
            <feet>Mavi Basmak +2</feet>
            <hands>Mavi Bazuband +2</hands>
            <head>Mirage Keffiyeh</head>
            <ammo>Mavi Tathlum</ammo>
            <waist>Penitent's Rope</waist>
            <legs>Mavi Tayt +2</legs>
            <back>Potentia Cape</back>
            <neck>Artemis' Medal</neck>
        </set>
        <set name="Head Butt-Haste" baseset="TP-Haste">
            <hands>Mavi Bazuband +2</hands>
            <body>Mavi Mintan +2</body>
        </set>
        <set name="Magical-INT">
            <main>$Staff-%SpellElement</main>
            <body>Teal Saio</body>
            <head>Teal Chapeau</head>
            <legs>Teal Slops</legs>
            <hands>Mavi Bazuband +2</hands>
            <ammo>Mavi Tathlum</ammo>
            <rring>Diamond Ring</rring>
            <feet>Mavi Basmak +2</feet>
            <rear>Hecate's Earring</rear>
            <neck>Artemis' Medal</neck>
            <lring>Spiral Ring</lring>
            <waist>Penitent's Rope</waist>
            <back>Potentia Cape</back>
            <lear>Moldavite Earring</lear>
        </set>
        <set name="Magical-MND" baseset="Magical-INT" />
        <set name="Magical-CHR" baseset="Magical-INT" />
        <set name="Thermal Pulse-N" baseset="Magical-INT">
            <main>Vulcan's Staff</main>
            <sub>Bugard Strap +1</sub>
        </set>
        <set name="Thermal Pulse-BA" baseset="Thermal Pulse-N">
            <waist>Warwolf Belt</waist>
        </set>
        <set name="Charged Whisker-N" baseset="Magical-INT">
            <body>Teal Saio</body>
            <legs>Teal Slops</legs>
            <feet>Mavi Basmak +2</feet>
            <hands>Mavi Bazuband +2</hands>
            <waist>Cuchulain's Belt</waist>
            <back>Vigilance Mantle+1</back>
            <rring>Rajas Ring</rring>
            <head>Aias Bonnet</head>
            <neck>Artemis' Medal</neck>
            <rear>Hecate's Earring</rear>
            <ammo>Thunder Sachet</ammo>
            <lring>Jupiter's Ring</lring>
            <sub>Brass Grip +1</sub>
            <lear>Moldavite Earring</lear>
        </set>
        <set name="Charged Whisker-BA" baseset="Charged Whisker-N">
            <body>Loki's Kaftan</body>
            <legs>Mavi Tayt +2</legs>
        </set>
        <set name="Evryone. Grudge-N" baseset="Magical-INT" />
        <set name="Evryone. Grudge-BA" baseset="Evryone. Grudge-N" />
        <set name="Cure-Potency">
            <main>$Staff-Light</main>
            <hands>Serpentes Cuffs</hands>
            <feet>Serpentes Sabots</feet>
            <waist>Penitent's Rope</waist>
            <legs>Teal Slops</legs>
            <body>Teal Saio</body>
            <head>Teal Chapeau</head>
        </set>
        <set name="Cure-EnmityPlus" baseset="Cure-Potency">
            <head>Mavi Kavuk +2</head>
        </set>
        <set name="Cure-EnmityMinus" baseset="Cure-Potency">
            <hands>Mavi Bazuband +2</hands>
            <feet>Mavi Basmak +2</feet>
            <rring>Trooper's Ring</rring>
            <rear>Novia Earring</rear>
            <lear>Delta Earring</lear>
            <lring>Metanoia Ring</lring>
        </set>
        <set name="Magic Accuracy">
            <main>$Staff-%SpellElement</main>
            <body>Mavi Mintan +2</body>
            <feet>Mavi Basmak +2</feet>
            <legs>Mavi Tayt +2</legs>
            <ammo>Mavi Tathlum</ammo>
            <head>Mirage Keffiyeh</head>
            <rring>Diamond Ring</rring>
            <back>Potentia Cape</back>
            <waist>Penitent's Rope</waist>
            <lring>Spiral Ring</lring>
            <hands>Mavi Bazuband +2</hands>
        </set>
        <set name="Spell Interruption">
            <head>Nashira Turban</head>
            <main>Eremite's Wand</main>
            <neck>Willpower Torque</neck>
            <legs>Magus Shalwar</legs>
            <waist>Emphatikos Rope</waist>
            <feet>Karasutengu</feet>
            <sub>Eremite's Wand</sub>
        </set>
        <set name="Breath" baseset="TP-Haste">
            <main>$Staff-%SpellElement</main>
            <rring>Meridian Ring</rring>
            <body>Mavi Mintan +2</body>
            <neck>Ardor Pendant</neck>
            <lear>Bloodgem Earring</lear>
            <hands>Homam Manopolas</hands>
            <feet>Homam Gambieras</feet>
            <lring>Bomb Queen Ring</lring>
        </set>
        <set name="Convert">
            <hands>Homam Manopolas</hands>
        </set>
        <set name="Resting">
            <main>Pluto's Staff</main>
        </set>
    </group>
    <group name="Abyssea-NM" inherit="Abyssea-R"/>
    <group name="Outside-R" inherit="Abyssea-R" default="yes"/>
    <group name="Outside-NM" inherit="Outside-R"/>
</sets>

Convert/Full Evasion set and other groups aren't filled out yet.

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 13:59

Depends what you are fighting, most things inside Abyssea with a healer it isn't a problem at all. The lack of dual wield three and having only DW2 isn't really relevant when you consider the time it takes casting shadows or recasting them if you get interrupted somehow. Counter damage should be taken into account as well.

**Yugl** · 2011-06-15 14:04

Originally Posted by Draylo

Depends what you are fighting, most things inside Abyssea with a healer it isn't a problem at all. The lack of dual wield three and having only DW2 isn't really relevant when you consider the time it takes casting shadows or recasting them if you get interrupted somehow. Counter damage should be taken into account as well.

If survival isn't an issue, then you can just not cast shadows and sponge your WHM. Otherwise, those shadows serve a utility. That or just stick to Ni and the case time is negligible.

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 14:10

Not really.. you are still using up an attack swing casting Ni with that small wait after. 10% Delay reduction vs counter dmg, I've countered attacks for 200 a pop which is a melee swing. Not to mention no interruption while casting something when counter procs whereas you need shadows up on /nin vs a high end NM to get no chance of interruption. Most "damaging" tp moves are easily negated with occultation unless they are AOE in which case /nin doesn't really have much advantage unless it takes 2~3 shadows (which you would need to keep recasting to survive vs if that is a big issue.)

**TheDirtyHobo** · 2011-06-15 14:28

I am genuinely at a loss for words for how many contradictions and otherwise terrible reasonings you managed to squeeze into such a small argument.

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 14:31

Terrible reasoning? Do tell. Just sounds like you are trying hard to express dislike due to not liking who is posting it. If you have reasons for why /mnk is bad over /nin than state it with facts, otherwise shut up.

**jimbobsonofgod** · 2011-06-15 14:32

biggest draw for me is being cheap with sneak and invis
I like the DW 3 and I avoid casting Ichi

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 14:40

DW3 is a 10% delay reduction vs DW2.. 10% delay reduction really that vast of an improvement over counter damage? Counter damage that can be within 100~200 dmg a smack and some mobs that attack really fast Ni isn't doing shit except slowing you down. Bennu, Amphitrite, Fuast(pixie, sp) and other fast attacking NMs will run a WHM MP if you are eating that much dmg by not casting shadows at all. I doubt Ni will be sufficient in dealing with those NMs and I doubt DW3 will be as much dmg as you have from counters when a mob is attacking that fast.

In reference to the "contradiction", I am assuming you are talking about me saying to use Occultation. I have no idea which "damaging" tp moves Yugl or the other post was referring to but it was just a small fix if necessary, you still counter since they aren't 100% shadows and avoid tp moves and still not have to deal with the cast times of shadows (which I doubt ni would be enough if you really needed to avoid a tp move, counterstance won't get you one shotted that easily or you wouldn't see everyone bandwagon mnk counterstance /war all the time.)

**Mercilessturtle** · 2011-06-15 14:44

Originally Posted by Draylo

Bennu, Amphitrite, Fuast(pixie, sp) and other fast attacking NMs will run a WHM MP if you are eating that much dmg by not casting shadows at all. I doubt Ni will be sufficient in dealing with those NMs and I doubt DW3 will be as much dmg as you have from counters when a mob is attacking that fast.

No, none of those will run an actual whm out of mp. Hasso is sufficient to deal with them, ni is excessive.

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 14:53

Originally Posted by Mercilessturtle

No, none of those will run an actual whm out of mp. Hasso is sufficient to deal with them, ni is excessive.

Sounds like bullshit to me but whatever, you and your annoying crew bullshit a lot. It would then boil down to 10% delay reduction vs counter damage if survivability/enmity issue was an absolute 0 factor. My reasons for using /mnk aren't solely dmg.

**TheDirtyHobo** · 2011-06-15 15:09

Reliance on counter damage when also saying to use Occultation to block TP moves.
Arguing Occultation as a way to reliably block TP moves, period.
Stating a 60% chance to not interrupt (excluding accuracy, which can be a factor on some high-end NMs) 100% of the time (if they don't dispel/absorb it, in which case you're boned) is better than a 100% chance not to interrupt 60% of the time (should easily be able to keep shadows up this much, excluding iron giants, where counter is useless anyways).
Noting the Ni aftercast lock when you can't swing, but ignoring Occultation's lock.

I'm not saying concretely one is better (situationally or otherwise) than the other, I'm saying your argument was bad. It was largely caused by trying to bring up occultation as a survival method.

Edit: And to continue with new ones you made while I was typing.

Saying I baselessly disagreed with your logic because I dislike you as a person, then baselessly accusing someone else of bullshitting because you dislike them as a person.
Arguing Amphitrite as a NM where Ni wouldn't suffice defensively when half the time being engaged on it at all will both heal it and make is spam a shadow-wiping, damaging TP move.
Arguing Fuath as a NM where Ni wouldn't suffice defensively when it dispels buffs and uses amnesia moves, leaving you with large periods with counterstance down.

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 15:26

Originally Posted by TheDirtyHobo

Reliance on counter damage when also saying to use Occultation to block TP moves.
Arguing Occultation as a way to reliably block TP moves, period.
Stating a 60% chance to not interrupt (excluding accuracy, which can be a factor on some high-end NMs) 100% of the time (if they don't dispel/absorb it, in which case you're boned) is better than a 100% chance not to interrupt 60% of the time (should easily be able to keep shadows up this much, excluding iron giants, where counter is useless anyways).
Noting the Ni aftercast lock when you can't swing, but ignoring Occultation's lock.

I'm not saying concretely one is better (situationally or otherwise) than the other, I'm saying your argument was bad. It was largely caused by trying to bring up occultation as a survival method.

I didn't say to block all TP moves from everything while /mnk, I meant it specifically for ones that are lethal which I believe what Yugl was referring to:

excess damage taken from TP moves undermines the utility of the sub MNK

For example, only thing I have had to use Occultation on while /mnk due to a TP move was Hedjedjet due to three Death Scissors in a row. 8 shadows with a 60% counter rate buffer to sustain shadows vs 3 shadows that you will need to continually recast once down. If he was referring to overall use of TP moves doing more dmg, it doesn't matter at all unless they one shot you because you can heal them np in one cast of a WHM. If that was the case MNK's wouldn't be counterstanced and would use /nin for shadows, which who does? Can't honestly say an additional 300ish hp over blu/mnk makes them a better candidate for counterstance tanking when taking TP moves into account.

**Mercilessturtle** · 2011-06-15 15:30

Originally Posted by Draylo

Sounds like bullshit to me but whatever, you and your annoying crew bullshit a lot.

Yeah, it is just me and my annoying bullshit crew. Everyone else knows bennu is super fucking hard.

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 15:39

Yeah show how easy it is to tank Bennu never casting shadows on BLU/NIN with a whm spam healing and let's see how it ends up.

**jimbobsonofgod** · 2011-06-15 15:43

i like how occulations cast and recast time isnt a factor but ni's cast time is a factor and its less.

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 15:46

Originally Posted by jimbobsonofgod

i like how occulations cast and recast time isnt a factor but ni's cast time is a factor and its less.

I like how you skipped over the part where I said only having to use Occultation for lethal TP moves, which was like three posts above the one you just made?

8 shadows with a 60% counter rate buffer to sustain shadows vs 3 shadows that you will need to continually recast once down.

Do the math, tell me which one ends up having to be recasted more often and losing a swing due to the delay afterwards.

**TheDirtyHobo** · 2011-06-15 15:51

Originally Posted by Draylo

8 shadows with a 60% counter rate buffer to sustain shadows

I've never tried it myself, but do Occultation shadows differ from Utsusemi shadows, allowing counter to proc first? If not, we can add that and "Expecting 8 shadows on a 45+ second recast to be active right as a mob is TPing" to the list. Not to mention your amazing "It's better defensively than a defensive sub not using its defensive ability" logic.

**Draylo** · 2011-06-15 15:54

I wasn't the one who brought up the not having to use Ni. That was your little friend stating you don't need to cast Ni at all on NMs since defense isn't a factor.

**jimbobsonofgod** · 2011-06-15 15:55

Originally Posted by Draylo

I like how you skipped over the part where I said only having to use Occultation for lethal TP moves, which was like three posts above the one you just made?

I like the part where you forgot that the same Lethal tp moves logic can be applied to Ni?
I mean I don't know how the rest of you guys play blu but I certainly don't cast shadows every time my timer is up.

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