Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Yugl]

Forgot about him, aside from him there really isn't much else. If the AOE doesn't one shot, how do AOE tp moves undermine /mnk? The main defensive edge is against regular attacks, mainly fast attacking mobs. Where are you getting 60% to 33%? 10% GH, 10% trait = 20% vs counterstance+trait+GH= 60%. Setting trait also means you are using 7 set points, /mnk only needs 3 extra for Blazing bound over what /nin normally uses.

They undermine sub MNK because you have to take the full force of the attack while allowing the mob to maintain capped pDIF. That subbing MNK will make you take more damage in these circumstances undermines the utility of MNK. The 33% increase comes from 1.6/1.2 = 33%.

Does the SpellTargetDistance rule in the includes.xml work with increasing mob size, or does it stay constant?

I was talking to someone recently who claimed that their recasts were oddly high when casting Occultation with Fast Cast trait from spells + Isador. I did some testing and verified their results. Further testing using each separately led to the tentative conclusion that they provide no more than 5% recast reduction in combination and 2-3% separately, suggesting that each is 5% Fast Cast.

Disappointment with Isador aside, I thought Fast Cast I was 10% Fast Cast? I synced WHM/RDM down to 30 and casted Reraise and got a value in line with 5% recast reduction so all I can think is that BLU Fast Cast is inferior to Fast Cast from subjob, but that's a first as far as I know. Would appreciate some verification/disproval of my results :\

You can set SpellTargetDistance using /magic Retrace (You don't even need <t>). Since mobs vary in size and there's no way to tell, I put a trigger (Retrace) that allows you to change the distance. When you hit retrace, the number chances to the current distance between you and your target. So once you stand at max melee range, do retrace and you'll be fine. If the feature becomes a hindrance, you can set the number to a ridiculous amount like 15' in the include.xml (ReturnRules section).

[Draylo]

They undermine sub MNK because you have to take the full force of the attack while allowing the mob to maintain capped pDIF. That subbing MNK will make you take more damage in these circumstances undermines the utility of MNK. The 33% increase comes from 1.6/1.2 = 33%.

I disagree, you won't take more damage than someone who is sub nin on something that attacks really fast. Melee swings alone will be enough to determine that. That is only the defensive side of it as well, nobody even bringing up the benefit of counter damage vs 10% delay reduction.

[jimbobsonofgod]

I synced WHM/RDM down to 30 and casted Reraise and got a value in line with 5% recast reduction so all I can think is that BLU Fast Cast is inferior to Fast Cast from subjob, but that's a first as far as I know. Would appreciate some verification/disproval of my results :\

Fast Cast
Casting time -10%, recast -5%
Obtained: Red Mage Level 15
Obtainable: Blue Mage Level 72
The cast time is 10% the recast time is 5%
the trait is inline with sub fastcast.

[jimbobsonofgod]

I disagree, you won't take more damage than someone who is sub nin on something that attacks really fast.

how can even a full 60 % counter rate, keep up with negating damage with shadows.
And nobody's bring up 10% delay vs counter damage, cause not every blue face tanks the world. You only get the full benefit of counter damage when you are taking, you get the 10% delay, every time you swing your sword. I personally do more swinging, then I do face tanking.

As for "do you low man" comment earlier to me , this is low man.
Thf + healer + 1 guy who covers blm/brd and if its not blm or brd, they change to blu for proc. After proc is done then I'll go ahead and melee shit up on blu and then it ends up both of us sharing hate.

[Sylvrdragon]

When you balance the Counter damage against the 10% Delay reduction from DW3, you have to also consider TP gain (WS frequency). If I remember correctly, you don't get TP from Counterattacks outside of Retaliation. If you're a melee based BLU (really only viable with CDC I believe), then I don't think you can put one ahead of the other at a mere glance.

When you balance the defensive capabilities of MNK with Counterstance, you also have to factor in the DEF down. Considering that Counter doesn't proc on TP moves, this really can be a big deal. Whether it takes more, less, or the same damage as /NIN without shadows, I don't know, but you can't pick and choose what to factor in if you want the true answer.

The Ni vs Occultation argument has been had a dozen times in this very thread. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, and I don't think casting shadows should even come into this discussion. Both take time to cast, and either one can surpass the other in certain situations. I think they cancel each other out.

The next thing to consider is how your spell sets, gear sets, and Atma sets might change to accommodate /MNK. I don't know anything about this, but I'm just saying, you can't ignore it.

Lastly, you have to consider your role in the group. I think Draylo has pretty much admitted that /MNK has no utility outside of tanking, and looking at it, I'm inclined to agree. If you're not being swung at, then the only argument in favor or /MNK (Counterstance) is worthless.

[Nightfyre]

Fast Cast
Casting time -10%, recast -5%
Obtained: Red Mage Level 15
Obtainable: Blue Mage Level 72
The cast time is 10% the recast time is 5%
the trait is inline with sub fastcast.

I know what wiki says, but my results don't match it. 30WHM/15RDM reraise was 57 seconds, BLU/WHM reraise was 58. Occultation with just trait was 87 seconds. That is clearly not a 5% reduction.

[jimbobsonofgod]

I know what wiki says, but my results don't match it. 30WHM/15RDM reraise was 57 seconds, BLU/WHM reraise was 58. Occultation with just trait was 87 seconds. That is clearly not a 5% reduction.

You would be correct sir, seems like i get 58 as well on blu trait on a 1 minute recast time.
Wonder if its truly been like that the whole time or square fucked it with the fast cast adjustment last update?

[Sylvrdragon]

Since some of you may not read the spellcast thread:

BLU XML: http://pastebin.com/FizAyAhB

Include XML (Needed): http://pastebin.com/bN6T8ANq

Autoexec (See Notes, section 'Rules and Tricks' for necessity): http://pastebin.com/82YzppcG

Credit: Radec for fixes and support; Nightfyre for set ideas and sleep timers

NOTES: I might move these to a word document, but I didn't know how to bold stuff using Notepad++, so I just posted + spoilered here

Spoiler: show

Variables:
** Elemental Staff Variables
** Elemental Obi Variables
** IdleLegs: Switch between movement and refresh legs (Manually change)
** Idle: Variable for your idle gear
** CA: Variable for changing between Chain Affinity and Non-Chain Affinity Casting (Do not touch)
** BA: Same as CA but for Burst Affinity
** HB: Variable for changing between Head butt with haste and head butt with magic accuracy
** LockMain: Variable for allowing main/sub to change (0 to disable changes; 1 to enable; Manually Change)
** Resist: Toggle to change between using Regular-mob sets and NM-mob sets
** RefreshTP: Toggle meleeing in refresh and meleeing without refresh (0 to disable refresh; 1 to enable refresh)
** Cure: Variable for changing between Potency, EnmityMinus, and EnmityPlus cure sets
** Breath: Toggle for locking in Breath sets (Stops gear changes for cures; 0 to disable; 1 to enable; Manually change)
** SleepOrder: Keeps track of which mob you slept first, second, and so forth (Do not touch)
** SleepTimer: Enables sleep timers (0 to disable; 1 to enable; Manually change)
** BuffTimer: Enables buff timers (0 to disable; 1 to enable; Manually change)
** Core: Variable for the base set you wish to use (This enables you to wear PDT or MDT on top of your TP or TP-Evasion set)
** TP: Variable for your TP gear

Groups:
** Abyssea-R: Gear you wish to use in Abyssea against (R)egular mobs
** Abyssea-NM: Gear you wish to use in Abyssea against (NM) mobs
** Outside-R: Abyssea-R, but for outside Abyssea
** Outside-NM: See Outside-R, but for NMs

Pay attention to the inherit="name"; for example, Outside-R is BASED ON YOUR ABYSSEA-R SET.
That means you only need to write changes from the Abyssea-R sets. To this that, just type:
<set name="SetYouWantToChangeHere">
<slot>GearToChange</slot>
</set>

Example: If I want to change TP-Haste to use Anguinous Belt outside abyssea
<set name="TP-Haste">
<waist>Anguinous Belt</waist>
</set>


Sets:
** Idle: Idle set; based on PDT, so you do not need to retype items such as Dark Rings or Twilight Torque
** PDT: Just type DT/PDT gear here, other slots handled by your current Core variable
** MDT: Just type DT/MDT gear here, other slots handled by your current Core variable
** Fast Cast: Fast Cast set for blue magic
** TP-Refresh: Only type changes from your Non-Refresh TP set; no need to retype the entire set
** TP-Haste: Non-Refresh TP set (Place ALL gear here)
** TP-Evasion: Evasion set for TPing, type in changes from TP-Haste
** Full Evasion: Full Evasion set (Not that the rules only equip this during idle; you'll need to manually change $Core/$TP if you wish to use this for TPing)
** WS Sets: Self explanatory
** Blue Magic Skill: Just type BLU Skill gear here, nothing more
** General sets: See 'Explanation of Magic sets'
** Head Butt MagicACC/Haste: Magic Accuracy and Haste sets for Head Butt; type changes from your TP-Haste set
** Charged Whisker/Evryone. Grudge/Thermal Pulse: Sets for each with and without BA active
** Cure Potency/EnmityMinus/EnmityPlus: Self-Explanatory
** Magic Accuracy: Just type magic accuracy gear here; Magical-INT will cover other slots
** Spell Interruption: Type whatever you wish to use for Spell Interruption (Place all gear here)
** Breath: Self-explanatory
** Convert: Self-explanatory
** Resting: Self-explantory


Explanation of Magic sets:
The "formula" for spell sets is TypeOfSpell-MainSTAT:SecondSTAT-AffinityVariable

TypeOfSpell: Physical or Magical
MainSTAT: For Physical spells, this is the WSC%; for Magical Spells, it's the primary mod
SecondSTAT: For Physical spells, this is the second WSC%; for Magical spells, it's the secondary mod (Currently no sets listed like this for magical)
AffinityVariable: 'N' means neutral, 'CA' means when Chain Affinity is active, 'BA' means when Burst Affinity is active

Example: Physical-STR:VIT-CA
Physical spell that has STR and VIT for WSC% when Chain Affinity is active. Some examples of this are Quadratic and Delta Thrust.
NOTE: For 'CA' and 'BA' sets, you only type changes from 'N' sets; do not waste your time retyping stuff you do not need to

Triggers:
I added triggers for changing some of your variables; here is the "Cheat sheet."

Blizzard V: Changes between TPing in Refresh and Without Refresh
Comet: Changes between regular-mob sets and NM-mob sets
Cure V: Changes cure set to EnmityMinus
Reprisal: Changes cure set to EnmityPlus
Cure VI: Changes cure set to Potency
Fire V: When engaged, changes Core+TP to TP set (With or without Refresh); When idle, changes to idle set
Aero V: When engaged, changes to TP-Evasion (With or Without Refresh); when Idle, changes to Full Evasion
Water V: When engaged, changes to $Core+MDT; when idle, changes to Idle+MDT
Stone V: When engaged, changes to $Core+PDT; when idle, changes to Idle+PDT
Breath: Casting any breath spell while Breath toggle="1" will change your Idle set to Breath (And locks cure sets from occurring)
Saboteur: Changes between Magic ACC and Haste for head butt
Thunder: Basically an "action" spell that changes your current set to $Idle when idle and $TP when meleeing
Retrace: See 'Notes on Include XML'

Rules and Tricks you might want to know:
** THERE ARE NO RULES FOR STAFF CHANGES! The line <main>$Staff-%SpellElement</main> is there to allow staff changes when LockMain="0"
** Core allows you to set a base for what you want to place your PDT/MDT set on; since it's uncertain whether you want
to use TP-Evasion, TP-Haste, or TP-Haste+TP-Refresh, I made the variable $Core
** Since TP and Idle are split, so you can TP with one set and Idle with another without hitting any buttons
** When you cast Utsusemi: Ichi, you change sets from Fast Cast > Spell Interruption > Haste; you can edit which set
to use within the rules section (For example, you might prefer Full Evasion rather than Spell Interruption)
** Most of the include section came from Techno on Windower; using his include, Utsusemi: Ichi does not cancel shadows if you have 3 still
** There are various castdelays throughout to avoid gear change issues, set them to whatever value suits you best
** There is a "Double check" Idle; I use that because I noticed that after quick spell kills, Dark Ring would sometimes not equip
** When not sub NIN, Utsusemi triggers Occultation (Kyte's Idea)
** Using convert changes your TP or Idle set to the convert gear (And blocks cure set changes); cure until ready to change sets then hit a non-Blizzard/Thunder V trigger
** The first "Wearing off" message on sleeps is 5s before a half resist would wear off
** Powder boots locked until you manually change them
** INTERESTING FACT: It seems when SE initially added BLU magical buffs/cures, they were an unknown element, but recently, they've started to assign elements, so Magic Fruit="Unknown" element, but Plen Embrace is Light
** RUles do not proc when less than LV50 (I always hated that when syncing)
** Autoexec is used for CA/BA sets because if you use two JAs in quick succession, the first JA's variable will not change
** If you cannot use autoexec, make sure you have a 2s delay between using JA or if it's just Efflux/CA, use Efflux before CA

Notes on Include XML:
** Within the "ReturnRules" section is a way to cancel WSs if your distance is greater than X
** X is 6 by default, if you wish to change that for bigger mobs, just cast Retrace on the mob to change X to current distance

Where do I put the Include file? Do I paste that into the BLU file, or just put it in the same folder? Also, does the Autoexec file have to have a specific name to work?

[Yugl]

Plugins > Spellcast > blu.xml

Plugins > Spellcast > include.xml

Plugins > Autoexec > AutoExec.xml

I'll update the post to reflect that for those who are unfamiliar with include.xml

I disagree, you won't take more damage than someone who is sub nin on something that attacks really fast. Melee swings alone will be enough to determine that. That is only the defensive side of it as well, nobody even bringing up the benefit of counter damage vs 10% delay reduction.

If you disagree, you're saying someone with shadows will take more damage from physical AoE than someone relying on counterstance. If that's the case, the conversation ends here.

[Draylo]

If you disagree, you're saying someone with shadows will take more damage from physical AoE than someone relying on counterstance. If that's the case, the conversation ends here.

Overall, they will take more damage.

how can even a full 60 % counter rate, keep up with negating damage with shadows.
And nobody's bring up 10% delay vs counter damage, cause not every blue face tanks the world. You only get the full benefit of counter damage when you are taking, you get the 10% delay, every time you swing your sword. I personally do more swinging, then I do face tanking.

As for "do you low man" comment earlier to me , this is low man.
Thf + healer + 1 guy who covers blm/brd and if its not blm or brd, they change to blu for proc. After proc is done then I'll go ahead and melee shit up on blu and then it ends up both of us sharing hate.

No shit, do you even read? This whole arguement is about counterstance and tanking during the use of, which again, you have skimmed over. Damn you always try so hard to sound cool. Nobody gives a shit if you don't tank on BLU, most BLU with Almace do when they play it.

When you balance the Counter damage against the 10% Delay reduction from DW3, you have to also consider TP gain (WS frequency). If I remember correctly, you don't get TP from Counterattacks outside of Retaliation. If you're a melee based BLU (really only viable with CDC I believe), then I don't think you can put one ahead of the other at a mere glance.

I'm up for seeing the math, just thought it seemed very obvious to me. I've even posted a SS here of the counterstance tanking Bennu and dealing 90~150 dmg, 5 times in a row for total of around 400~500 dmg. I just don't see how /nin could keep up with 10% delay reduction in addition to continually having to cast shadows which are stripped fairly quickly.

[Yugl]

To say that they will take more damage is a terrible blanket statement when the comparison is taking zero damage versus a 33% increase in counters. Using FFXI Calculator, you're sacrificing roughly 4.5s towards CDC by using sub MNK. This means if you use the WS even 10x during the fight, sub MNK is 45s slower. This doesn't even count the off-hand swing you get.

[Draylo]

You aren't countering with shadows up, the increase won't be 33%. You won't have shadows up full time, you will be getting hit a lot more often. Mob attacked 5 times in a row, there goes shadows with additional damage since you don't cast ichi. Does your counter account for shadow casting?

[Yugl]

You aren't countering with shadows up, the increase won't be 33%. You won't have shadows up full time, you will be getting hit a lot more often. Mob attacked 5 times in a row, there goes shadows with additional damage since you don't cast ichi. Does your counter account for shadow casting?

You can counter when shadows are down. If you compare shadowless hits, the 33% remains relevant. If you add in shadowed hits, counter becomes less of a bonus. It's very simple. If survival is your priority, evasion tank these guys and use flash/drape/Occult properly. If damage is your priority, you don't always need Ni. If you need some funky hybrid, then sub MNK works, but to suggest that it's the prime defensive sub or the prime offensive sub is a blanket statement no matter how you look at it. I think that's pretty obvious when you're trying to center this debate around precise NMs you find sub MNK effective against.

[Draylo]

I was mainly addressing this:

if you're /MNK, (I really don't understand this new /MNK thing going on, it seems really impractical and clunky)

Before I was attacked by haters. /MNK is better than /nin vs fast attacking mobs, the ones I referenced and more (god you love to pigeonhole what I am talking about just to undermine what I am talking about, I wasn't talking about precise NMs, it can apply to any fast attacking mob or hundred fist). Where was the debate when someone mentioned acc against "high-end mobs"?

If survival is your priority, evasion tank these guys and use flash/drape/Occult properly.

Waste of time when you can survive and deal more damage being a different sub, don't understand the opposition. I bet most BLU don't even set counter /nin. Also ignoring the fact you are spending more set points than /mnk for most part which can be used to buffer DD damage.

Are you suggesting /nin is the prime offensive and defensive sub then?

[Yugl]

You don't even know what he means by impractical or clunky, so I don't see how you can respond to him beyond that. No, it's not a hater issue Draylocade. It's you making statements without qualifying them. That's the reason you're getting so much opposition. Furthermore, you make theoretical claims and argue them as truths without mathing them out. I've shown my end of the work, but you have nothing but "It worked for me." So what if it worked? MNK/SMN works just fine against Turul, but that doesn't mean shit when it comes to comparative damage.

You're trying to make sub MNK look like the best defense and the best offense. Realistically, it will fall short on either of them depending on the NM you're fighting. As for NIN, it should win in a many cases. There is no "best in every situation" sub. That's something you need to realize.

If counter is as great as you say it is and you're relying vastly on melee damage, I don't see what you're missing by using points towards counter.

[Draylo]

You don't even know what he means by impractical or clunky, so I don't see how you can respond to him beyond that. No, it's not a hater issue Draylocade. It's you making statements without qualifying them. That's the reason you're getting so much opposition. Furthermore, you make theoretical claims and argue them as truths without mathing them out. I've shown my end of the work, but you have nothing but "It worked for me." So what if it worked? MNK/SMN works just fine against Turul, but that doesn't mean shit when it comes to comparative damage.

You're trying to make sub MNK look like the best defense and the best offense. Realistically, it will fall short on either of them depending on the NM you're fighting. As for NIN, it should win in a many cases. There is no "best in every situation" sub. That's something you need to realize.

I already realize that, and never stated it was... please point out where I said /mnk is the best sub overall for Blue Mage. I said it was situational and best against fast attacking mobs. I don't need to know what he meant by impractical or clunky, I was stating the facts as to why its a good sub, if he didn't respond that isn't my problem. You have shown your end of the work? Jesus, you act like you are some kind of prophet on these forums.

You haven't shown any proof of anything outside of "In my special calculator I got magical results that show /mnk is inferior without taking shadow casting into account!"

It's obvious the benefit it has over /nin when you are up against a fast attacking mob. I don't see the need to delve into math when looking at something face value that you can obviously see the benefit. If you want to, go ahead. I was merely stating the benefits of /mnk that make it the best sub for fast attacking mobs to someone who said its clunky and "impractical".

Guess what, /nin will fall short on either of them as well. I can make obvious blanket statements too. I just love how every discussion with you has to turn into some debate where you always assume I am wrong.

[Draylo]

Putting that aside so this doesn't continue for 8 pages again, if everyone is interested maybe someone can do that math. I'll admit it isn't my forte so go for it. If it does end up being /nin over /mnk, then I'm wrong. Eyeballing obvious results when /mnk just seems overall better to me. Something that uses hundred fists or attacks really fast (Bennu frequently DA/TA and low delay between swings, as does Amphitrite and other Nms) will strip shadows and end up smacking you thus feeding more tp thus taking more AOE/WS dmg etc etc. Hundred fist mobs is an obvious one, if you are /nin you are either flashing it or tossing on -pdt build, lowering overall dmg compared to a /mnk who will counter those hits. 33% counter, I still don't get the 33% boost or maybe I'm seeing it wrong. 60% counter rate /mnk, 20% counter rate /nin seems like a 40% difference to me. Either way, 33% is still a big difference in that situation.

[Yugl]

I already realize that, and never stated it was... please point out where I said /mnk is the best sub overall for Blue Mage. I said it was situational and best against fast attacking mobs. I don't need to know what he meant by impractical or clunky, I was stating the facts as to why its a good sub, if he didn't respond that isn't my problem.

Overall, they will take more damage.

You said this about sub NIN. With this, you were implying sub NIN takes more damage overall (Pretty obvious!).

Mostly a personal battle, notice the opposition is the people who are in the same LS and dislike me. The whole arguement seems to be 10% delay reduction vs counter damage to them. To me it's, 10% delay reduction + casting shadow downtime/fast cast gear vs counter damage/60% counter to reduce overall dmg taken, especially vs fast mobs.

With this, you're trying to say sub MNK does more damage. You then said "especially v fast mobs", which means it applies to other mobs as well and that it simply excels when against fast mobs.

Hence, you're suggesting MNK is the best sub offensively and defensively. I showed how much slower sub MNK is TP-wise and corrected your counter improvement. If you want to show that a sub is best, you show what you're gaining (Not just theorize in your favor). You have shown time and again that you're incapable of doing this (Especially with the counter %), so you're not defending your point. Attacking fast isn't even the point since you also have to consider whether evasion tanking is a viable option. Also, sub NIN falls short on either of them? Them is plural and all I see is fast attacking mobs. It's clear that you're angry and arguing for the sake of arguing rather than looking for truth in the matter.you're


You have shown your end of the work? Jesus, you act like you are some kind of prophet on these forums.

[Prothescar]

Holy balls what happened in here? Impractical and clunky, yes. I agree that it's nice for faster attacking mobs, but for things you'd actually fight on a regular basis?

[Draylo]

You said this about sub NIN. With this, you were implying sub NIN takes more damage overall (Pretty obvious!).



With this, you're trying to say sub MNK does more damage. You then said "especially v fast mobs", which means it applies to other mobs as well and that it simply excels when against fast mobs.

Hence, you're suggesting MNK is the best sub offensively and defensively. I showed how much slower sub MNK is TP-wise and corrected your counter improvement. If you want to show that a sub is best, you show what you're gaining. You have shown time and again that you're incapable of doing this (Especially with the counter %), so you're not defending your point. Attacking fast isn't even the point since you also have to consider whether evasion tanking is a viable option. Also, sub NIN falls short on either of them? Them is plural and all I see is fast attacking mobs. It's clear that you're angry and arguing for the sake of arguing rather than looking for truth in the matter.you're


You have shown your end of the work? Jesus, you act like you are some kind of prophet on these forums.

No... I was implying /nin takes more damage from fast attacking mobs which was the topic of discussion.

Hence, you're suggesting MNK is the best sub offensively and defensively. I showed how much slower sub MNK is TP-wise and corrected your counter improvement. If you want to show that a sub is best, you show what you're gaining. You have shown time and again that you're incapable of doing this (Especially with the counter %), so you're not defending your point. Attacking fast isn't even the point since you also have to consider whether evasion tanking is a viable option. Also, sub NIN falls short on either of them? Them is plural and all I see is fast attacking mobs. It's clear that you're angry and arguing for the sake of arguing rather than looking for truth in the matter.you're

"Them" is referring to this:

You're trying to make sub MNK look like the best defense and the best offense. Realistically, it will fall short on either of them depending on the NM you're fighting. As for NIN, it should win in a many cases. There is no "best in every situation" sub. That's something you need to realize.

Offensive and Defense, /nin will fall short of either of THEM depending on the NM you're fighting.

I fail to see how /mnk being slower TP wise (Obvious.. 10% delay reduction) makes it worse than /nin if that is what you are implying? This doesn't take counter damage into account nor shadow casting time/recast if interrupted nor how its a 33% increase(where did 60 from 20 be 33 instead of 40%?) when they aren't fulltime without shadows(does nothing for damage when a shadow is absorbed).

Attacking fast isn't even the point since you also have to consider whether evasion tanking is a viable option

Evasion tanking is stupid, you deal significantly less damage overall. Let's be real here, WHM can pretty much heal through anything. If you are eating a TON of damage, yeah you will run that whm MP low.

I'm not mad or angry at all, I take a defensive tone when posting when people are obviously attacking my opinion just like anyone else would.