Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Draylo]

Double post somehow

Does this need to turn into a 8 page debate? It would be more beneficial for the math to prove if the counter damage is more beneficial than 10% delay reduction. Damage wise overall, not just time for swings to 100. This means not having to cast shadows from both subs and just eating the damage (or countering) with a healer. I thought it was obvious but apparently you aren't swayed by it. I would be interested in seeing the math anyway though. Can also take into account liberal use of Ni when necessary and the slowdown that has vs not having to cast shadows at all /mnk unless turning for proc and using occultation or to prevent a damaging series of tp moves like Hedjedjet. Determining the exact slowdown for casting Ni and the after wait. I guess the inventory issues doesn't really matter but it is a bonus in my book, lets me drop a few items. Also determining the overall damage vs the two subs when not always the main target. If I am duoing with someone thf + blu on a high end mob, its pretty easy to swap hate back and forth via damage or hate cap. I still don't need to cast shadows at that point but do get quite a few counters off.

[Yugl]

No... I was implying /nin takes more damage from fast attacking mobs which was the topic of discussion.

No it wasn't. Mobs with AoE Physical TP moves was the point of discussion. Stop going back on your point.

"Them" is referring to this:

So you repeated what I said?

I fail to see how /mnk being slower TP wise (Obvious.. 10% delay reduction) makes it worse than /nin if that is what you are implying?

I'm telling you the benefit of sub NIN. If you want to make your point, you can start by telling us the delay of mobs, their HP, your ATT, their DEF, and so forth. Otherwise, you're just speaking nonsense and hoping someone comes along and picks up the numbers for you (Which is traditionally how you tend to argue).

This doesn't take counter damage into account nor shadow casting time/recast if interrupted nor how its a 33% increase(where did 60 from 20 be 33 instead of 40%?) when they aren't fulltime without shadows(does nothing for damage when a shadow is absorbed).

I posted the answer to this a few pages back. It's clear you're not reading and just becoming a broken record at this point. We're done.

[Yugl]

Double.

[Draylo]

No it wasn't. Mobs with AoE Physical TP moves was the point of discussion. Stop going back on your point.


So you repeated what I said?



I'm telling you the benefit of sub NIN. If you want to make your point, you can start by telling us the delay of mobs, their HP, your ATT, their DEF, and so forth. Otherwise, you're just speaking nonsense and hoping someone comes along and picks up the numbers for you (Which is traditionally how you tend to argue).


I posted the answer to this a few pages back. It's clear you're not reading and just becoming a broken record at this point. We're done.

/facepalm, whatever. The obvious was addressed when I talked about the benefits of /mnk, and he acknowledged its worth for fast attacking mobs. Dunno where all this opposition was when I first brought up /mnk but you are so full of yourself it's extremely pointless talking with you.

[Atoreis]

Imo you both sound like butthurted on last few posts. /mnk is obviously better on anything that attack fast enough and can't one shot you because of low def. /nin is obviously better if you not fulltime tanking and if mob can one shot you.

Going from 20% to 60% counter rate is not 40% because it is not 60-40 and is not 1.6/1.2=33% either because it is not a MAB that has base 1.0 multiplication. 33% increase from 20% would be 26.6%. 20% to 60% on counter rate is a 200% increase in amount of counters.

Unless you had in mind reduction in hits taken then going from 80% taking hits to 40% is 100% less hits taken.

[Yugl]

Imo you both sound like butthurted on last few posts. /mnk is obviously better on anything that attack fast enough and can't one shot you because of low def. /nin is obviously better if you not fulltime tanking and if mob can one shot you.

Going from 20% to 60% counter rate is not 40% because it is not 60-40 and is not 1.6/1.2=33% either because it is not a MAB that has base 1.0 multiplication. 33% increase from 20% would be 26.6%. 20% to 60% on counter rate is a 200% increase in amount of counters.

This is right. The counter stuff I was just about to fix (Checked with Radec). It's still stupid to say that fast attacks always suits sub MNK since additional effects such as slow, petrification, or paralyze will make sub NIN superior.

[Atoreis]

This is right. The counter stuff I was just about to fix (Checked with Radec). It's still stupid to say that fast attacks always suits sub MNK since additional effects such as slow, petrification, or paralyze will make sub NIN superior.

Yes and no if the attacks are fast enough to not be able to actually not get hit with /nin then /mnk is superior. You also underestimate counter + Occ I think. If the mob attack fast enough you have pretty big chance to avoid around 17 from his next 19 attacks when with /nin you will avoid 6 then you are gonna be raped. Assuming you can Flash them once too you can probably avoid maybe even 100% of the attacks with /nin and swing maybe 2 times in whole process when with /mnk you will avoid 90% with only downtime for Occ and flash so swinging a lot and countering a lot. That is assuming no interrupt on /nin which is far more possible then on MNK.

It is really not that easy to say where is the point where one is starting to be superior to other but as much as you cant say /mnk is always superior on fast attack mobs you also cant say that add effect on hits turns it in favor of /nin.

[Yugl]

It is really not that easy to say where is the point where one is starting to be superior to other but as much as you cant say /mnk is always superior on fast attack mobs you also cant say that add effect on hits turns it in favor of /nin.

Added effected won't always turn it in favor of sub NIN, but it is a point of a caution. The one thing that I would like to ask would be your take on straight DD since the person who called it clunky was not specifying fast attacking mobs.

Edit: No Draylo, it's about outlandish comments (One of them coming from my counter % increase, but the rest from you) and you trying to force the topic of fast mobs into a discussion where no one is talking about them (Even the person who made the comment!).

[Draylo]

They didn't specify anything, was just a statement thrown out there. I listed the points in mnks favor in response which is what started this.

[Byrthnoth]

Can one of you guys go test Atma of the Avaricious Ape's "Enhances Monster Correlation Effect?" Seems to me like it should be a relatively simple test.

[Kaslo]

Can one of you guys go test Atma of the Avaricious Ape's "Enhances Monster Correlation Effect?" Seems to me like it should be a relatively simple test.

Or, you know, you could go test it.

[Byrthnoth]

My BLU is level 0 on both my accounts, and testing this should be as easy as doing a single breath with the Atma on.

[Kaslo]

My BLU is level 0 on both my accounts

Then why do you care?

[Byrthnoth]

Vague interest? I want to delete it from my list? I'm hoping that knowing what the Atma's effect is will let me infer what BST head +2 does and point me in the right direction for testing? Does it really matter?

Unless I'm really misunderstanding how monster correlation works, I asked for a test that would honestly probably take a competent BLU under 10 minutes including travel time. It would take me weeks to do the same test.

Edit: Sorry if the test is more complicated than I thought. For some reason I thought 1000 Needles or a Breath would pretty much handle it. I'm just asking because my current project is figuring out the rest of these effects:
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/100...=1#post4653111
Most of the ones under Misc are either annoying tests that I'm dreading doing (how do I quantify running speed? Time to test like 8 DA Atma? Enmity tests?) or easy tests for jobs (Dragoon, Samurai, Blue Mage), Atma (Truthseeker, Nightmares, Bushin, Camaraderie), or gear sets (Spell Interrupt Rate-%) that I don't have. There are doubtlessly players that post on this forum that could knock a dozen values off the list in an hour, but I'm pretty much stuck with the hard tests because I've burned through all the easy ones I have access to.

[Atoreis]

Or, you know, you could go test it.

Then why do you care?

Bad day or you are just that stupid?

[Kaslo]

Bad day or you are just that stupid?

Nah just hate people that run into a thread and are like TEST THIS PLEASE! Maybe lack of sleep due to thunderstorms last night though.

[Valisk]

Don't mind Kaslo. he's still bitter about OKC not making it to the NBA finals. Byrth is doing everyone a service by getting the valuse of atma that have not yet been confirmed/verified. It's like bitching at Kaeko for asking someone to test the emnity on something. OKCool it, Kaslo.

[Kaslo]

Don't mind Kaslo. he's still bitter about OKC not making it to the NBA finals. Byrth is doing everyone a service by getting the valuse of atma that have not yet been confirmed/verified. It's like bitching at Kaeko for asking someone to test the emnity on something. OKCool it, Kaslo.

See had I known he was compiling all atma stuff, and not some random person coming into our thread it would have been different.

[Byrthnoth]

It's np, lol. Check out how far I've gotten! https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Abyssea_Atma

The list I linked above has the remaining values that I think it's possible to add. There are obviously plenty (like Resist status, Magic Evasion, Magic Accuracy, etc.) that I can't add because we don't really even know how they work. There's no easy test. Some things we have never even quantified before. I can't reasonably ever expect to get something more accurate than SE's Minor/Major/Superior rating. Fortunately, they're also not very useful. There are other things that we have tests for, but those tests don't work in Abyssea (like Subtle Blow).

Some things that are useful but not reasonable to parse (like Evasion and Ranged Accuracy). I was hoping that SE was 100% consistent on their Accuracy ratings -> potency so I could just generalize to evasion and Racc (like we do for Accuracy Bonus and Evasion Bonus traits), but no dice. The only way to test evasion would be to pull a bunch of EM mandies and set your evasion. Get a baseline, repeat it with Atma on. Sleepga them, change Atma, repeat. It sounds easy, until you consider pulling a bunch of EM-onry mandies and then having to re-pull them every time you swap Atma.

That basically leaves a bunch of pain in the ass tests, and tests that I can't do.

[Draylo]

Bad day or you are just that stupid?

This thread is full of mean people, don't you know