Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Atoreis]

They're saying they can't all be now, but @ 95 will be. I'm thinkin BLU/WAR becomes a real contender with that. Set Triple Attack, Dual Wield II, Store TP II, get /WAR Double Attack, all the /WAR goodies.

You will still be 2nd class melee DD in which case you would better to go with real melee DD. BLU is best in a lowman (and solo even more) situations where you need everything at once AoEsleep/healing/damage/stun/etc.. When you trying to make pure melee out of him then it wont work ( at least outside abyssea ). On the other hand I am not sure which subjob could be best for above purpose but even /nin for shadows should be better or maybe /dnc to dont waste mp on cures.

Really if you found yourself in a situation where you have marches, healers, rolls and its not worth to casting outside of maybe QC then you would do better on pure melee job instead of trying to accommodate BLU for this.

Ofc situation can change and they might add some spells for BLU that will be so useful to have that it will be wanted in large party and then depends of your role you could end up in melee party with marches and maybe rolls and end up focusing on melee because you are already there. I cant find a situation like this for now tho, so for now in lowman events when BLU might be most useful its better to focus on spells and managing your mp and /war wont help you do it because you will lose more damage, by curing yourself instead of spamming delta thrust, than you will get from /war.

[dasva]

We can already set DW II anyways. And really DWIII from /nin alone will generally beat out all advantages of /war

[Draylo]

I'm pretty excited about White Wind lol, some iconic BLU spell and a nice aoe heal.

[Atoreis]

I'm pretty excited about White Wind lol, some iconic BLU spell and a nice aoe heal.

/pessimistic mode on
based on hp % and top at 200HP at 100% HP
/pessimistic mode off

/optimistic mode on
Based on your direct current HP not % (gogo Galka !!!) and top at 30% of it.
/optimistic mode off

[Yugl]

/pessimistic mode on
based on hp % and top at 200HP at 100% HP
/pessimistic mode off

And only available while HNM buff is up!

[Villian]

Can't wait for White Wind and maybe Lightning Spear from Ixion!

Reading what atoreis posted makes me feel like every MMORPG should just have 3 jobs only. Melee, Healer, and Nuker so no best job stuff! No offense but that's what I thought when I read it lol.

[Atoreis]

Can't wait for White Wind and maybe Lightning Spear from Ixion!

Reading what atoreis posted makes me feel like every MMORPG should just have 3 jobs only. Melee, Healer, and Nuker so no best job stuff! No offense but that's what I thought when I read it lol.

Well then I wrote it very badly because it's opposite. Large groups usually are better when made with specialist not all-in-one jobs that's why BLU is for now not good for this but it's very useful in lowmanning events that requires all kind of stuff with limited ppl (or solo). BLU should focus on what he is doing best and unique capabilities instead of trying to compete with pure melee jobs on their field ( So no I don't want 3 jobs only in mmorpg I want a lot of them but they should all find their best use no trying to copy each other.)

That is also why I still play this game with the same passion I did few years ago. Whenever I read something interesting about the job I want to play it and I do and after that I come back to my old jobs like to best places from childhood and since the group of old jobs is getting bigger and bigger I have a lot of "places" to come back

[dasva]

Or you can just excel at that facet and beat most the people out there on "better" jobs for that

[Atoreis]

Or you can just excel at that facet and beat most the people out there on "better" jobs for that

Yeah but that is kinda limited even if you have best possible geared BLU and play with best possible skill you wont beat at damage a good equipped WAR in full support situation.

[Tashan]

RE: The job manifesto - Fuck yeah!

----

Does anyone know where the Fantod testing was done on these forums?

[dasva]

Yeah but that is kinda limited even if you have best possible geared BLU and play with best possible skill you wont beat at damage a good equipped WAR in full support situation.

Who the hell plays in full support situation? Hell who plays with good equipped Wars?

[Yugl]

Well then I wrote it very badly because it's opposite. Large groups usually are better when made with specialist not all-in-one jobs that's why BLU is for now not good for this but it's very useful in lowmanning events that requires all kind of stuff with limited ppl (or solo).

You have no idea how difficult that is to explain to people.

[kenshyn]

Just hope I can one day sneak attack + spike flail yeah that be baller lol.....

[kenshyn]

Who the hell plays in full support situation? Hell who plays with good equipped Wars?

Its funny so many think wars and mnks are just top dd's just because they have the job and fail because they need the gear and atmas and ws like UKKO's and VS to actually rock it. It's a well geared war and mnk who macros a ton of shit not just any old scrub. Always makes me laugh like come war or mnk and your gonna be top dd far from the truth and more bad wars and mnks exist now more than ever before. Its like any job many are clueless how to max the potential of the job so they say it can't do it which is far from the truth....

[ronin sparthos]

BLU finally gets TH1 and White Wind @95, fuck yeah.

Oh and the HNM spells being tied to a 5min timer makes for interesting tools. It almost sounds like the Beastmaster ability they are working on.

[Foldypaws]

Huh, if the Triple Attack is the same as the THF trait (i.e. 5%), then moving from DA to TA is actually a *penalty*, not a bonus, assuming you aren't /war.

Let's take a standard BLU. 10% DA from gear (Atheling Twilight Brutal).

With the DA trait they have 20% DA, or 1.2 attacks /round.

With the TA trait they have 10% DA and 5% TA, or 1.195 attacks/round, because you can't DA if you TA.

[Alistaire]

Huh, if the Triple Attack is the same as the THF trait (i.e. 5%), then moving from DA to TA is actually a *penalty*, not a bonus, assuming you aren't /war.

Let's take a standard BLU. 10% DA from gear (Atheling Twilight Brutal).

With the DA trait they have 20% DA, or 1.2 attacks /round.

With the TA trait they have 10% DA and 5% TA, or 1.195 attacks/round, because you can't DA if you TA.

Well there's that point out of the way. As far as Atoreis' reply...ugh. OK let's ignore the merits of "BLU vs other dd". Easiest way to debunk that is to say BLU vs anyone else is missing the point. So the point becomes this: If and when you're on BLU how do you maximize it? And if you are /WAR @ 95 cap it looks like you will do that, at least in a lot more situations @ 95 than @90. BLU vs any other job boils down to how much BLU can do or how much whatever job can do. Best way to answer that is always going to start with maximizing BLU with respect to the BLU only, and THEN comparing with other options.

Of course maximizing damage isn't everything; when you need /nin to mitigate damage you go /nin, and this means you're taking damage to start with, so obviously these "real DD's" that are going to out DD you aren't there or you wouldn't need /nin cause you don't have hate. Or you're in a fight where mob's hate is wonky and/or it uses dangerous moves regardless of who has hate.

As for "dual wield 3 beats /war" with 95 cap you're going to have 10% more dual wield /nin or 10% more melee swings /war. 10% dual wield is faster, but yields no extra tp, and doesn't help ws. (And I probably should have mentioned this is with Almace in mind, without the whole "not a real DD" argument does work a bit better). 10% DA helping ws, and helping get tp, with CDC, will beat out /nin unless you're getting a lot of haste but need the dw boost to hit delay cap. Small window there. And 95 cap may even bring DW3 to BLU, but that's not necessary for what I'm saying.

Set points might also play a role, right now DW2 is only 3 points of spells you wouldn't normally set, where Double Attack is 6. (Also really looking forward to +5 set points)

"maybe /dnc to dont waste mp on cures" No. Not for that reason anyway. Definitely not with CDC. In the right setup though Haste Samba will make /dnc the best sub for giving that haste to a whole party.

And of course basing your argument on large groups is about as much a fail as doing most things in large groups. Exceptions of course but definitely not the rule these days.

Spamming Delta Thrust in a large group situation is also very odd, no idea why you would do that except in situations where your MP is really taxed AND not worried about TP feed, and if you're relying on spell damage that much you're probably better off /rdm. I know I've won parses consistently vs several including a well-geared relic WAR in Einherjar doing that, and though haven't done Einherjar since getting Almace I'm not sure it'd pull ahead of /rdm for that event.

And for something completely unrelated HNM moves without setting spells but just using a JA, gonna be spamming those restore boxes just that much more.

[Foldypaws]

As for "dual wield 3 beats /war" with 95 cap you're going to have 10% more dual wield /nin or 10% more melee swings /war. 10% dual wield is faster, but yields no extra tp, and doesn't help ws. (And I probably should have mentioned this is with Almace in mind, without the whole "not a real DD" argument does work a bit better). 10% DA helping ws, and helping get tp, with CDC, will beat out /nin unless you're getting a lot of haste but need the dw boost to hit delay cap. Small window there. And 95 cap may even bring DW3 to BLU, but that's not necessary for what I'm saying.

DW 3 is more than "10% more swings". Assuming Suppa and no other DW, going from DW2->DW3 is going from .8 to .7 delay, or a 14.2% increase in swings/time. (unless you're hitting the delay cap, which is only possible with haste samba on top of capped gear and magic haste, as you need 71.5%)

Likewise, DA is less than "10% more swings" Assuming 10% from gear (no DA sword), going from 10% DA to 20% DA is going from 1.1 to 1.2 swings/round, or a 9.1% increase in swings.

DW > DW1 has no effect on WS, it's true, but during TP phase, going from DW2 to DW3 is time and half better than adding the DA trait.

[Alistaire]

DW 3 is more than "10% more swings". Assuming Suppa and no other DW, going from DW2->DW3 is going from .8 to .7 delay, or a 14.2% increase in swings/time.

Likewise, DA is less than "10 more swings" Assuming 10% from gear (no DA sword), going from 10% DA to 20% DA is going from 1.1 to 1.2 swings/round, or a 9.1% increase in swings.

DW > DW1 has no effect on WS, it's true, but during TP phase, going from DW2 to DW3 is time and half better than adding the DA trait.

OK poorly worded, wrote that with knowing how DW works in mind, I know it's more than 10%. But saying DA is less than 10% is an error in math. with 10% double attack you swing 110 times instead of 100. With 20% you swing 120 out of 100. You get the correct % increase by comparing both vs the base. So a 10% boost in swings vs a 20% boost in swings, the 20% is 10% more.

That's also been a common thing around here, the line of "Double Attack has decreasing returns." It doesn't. It doesn't have increasing returns either. It has exactly linear returns, up till a cap, if there is one.

So 14.2% vs 10% in melee damage + 10% more ws's (give or take a swing if you end up @ 100 tp even without and not 100 tp even with) and 10% more DA procs in a ws. Definitely not time and a half.

[Foldypaws]

OK poorly worded, wrote that with knowing how DW works in mind, I know it's more than 10%. But saying DA is less than 10% is an error in math. with 10% double attack you swing 110 times instead of 100. With 20% you swing 120 out of 100. You get the correct % increase by comparing both vs the base. So a 10% boost in swings vs a 20% boost in swings, the 20% is 10% more.

That's also been a common thing around here, the line of "Double Attack has decreasing returns." It doesn't. It doesn't have increasing returns either. It has exactly linear returns, up till a cap, if there is one.

So 14.2% vs 10% in melee damage + 10% more ws's (give or take a swing if you end up @ 100 tp even without and not 100 tp even with) and 10% more DA procs in a ws. Definitely not time and a half.

DA has decreasing marginal returns, and the marginal return is what you're concerned about when you're picking out stuff.

It doesn't *matter* how much more damage you'd be doing than if you were naked, what matters is how much it adds to what you're already doing.

Which is to say, the marginal return. And the marginal return on DA is lower the more DA you have. (Because you can't DA on a DA).