Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Alistaire]

DA has decreasing marginal returns, and the marginal return is what you're concerned about when you're picking out stuff.

It doesn't *matter* how much more damage you'd be doing than if you were naked, what matters is how much it adds to what you're already doing.

Which is to say, the marginal return. And the marginal return on DA is lower the more DA you have.

Go here: http://www.mathwarehouse.com/riddles/math-riddles.php and go to Riddle #4. The reason you're wrong is exactly the same math error in that riddle. DA gives linear returns.

(Edit: just read their explanation and they don't really explain it well. But you may have heard that riddle before, it's common. Some other place might explain it better but I can't be bothered to search farther than the first google reply.)

[Atoreis]

Well there's that point out of the way. As far as Atoreis' reply...ugh. OK let's ignore the merits of "BLU vs other dd". Easiest way to debunk that is to say BLU vs anyone else is missing the point. So the point becomes this: If and when you're on BLU how do you maximize it? And if you are /WAR @ 95 cap it looks like you will do that, at least in a lot more situations @ 95 than @90. BLU vs any other job boils down to how much BLU can do or how much whatever job can do. Best way to answer that is always going to start with maximizing BLU with respect to the BLU only, and THEN comparing with other options.

Of course maximizing damage isn't everything; when you need /nin to mitigate damage you go /nin, and this means you're taking damage to start with, so obviously these "real DD's" that are going to out DD you aren't there or you wouldn't need /nin cause you don't have hate. Or you're in a fight where mob's hate is wonky and/or it uses dangerous moves regardless of who has hate.

As for "dual wield 3 beats /war" with 95 cap you're going to have 10% more dual wield /nin or 10% more melee swings /war. 10% dual wield is faster, but yields no extra tp, and doesn't help ws. (And I probably should have mentioned this is with Almace in mind, without the whole "not a real DD" argument does work a bit better). 10% DA helping ws, and helping get tp, with CDC, will beat out /nin unless you're getting a lot of haste but need the dw boost to hit delay cap. Small window there. And 95 cap may even bring DW3 to BLU, but that's not necessary for what I'm saying.

Set points might also play a role, right now DW2 is only 3 points of spells you wouldn't normally set, where Double Attack is 6. (Also really looking forward to +5 set points)

"maybe /dnc to dont waste mp on cures" No. Not for that reason anyway. Definitely not with CDC. In the right setup though Haste Samba will make /dnc the best sub for giving that haste to a whole party.

And of course basing your argument on large groups is about as much a fail as doing most things in large groups. Exceptions of course but definitely not the rule these days.

Spamming Delta Thrust in a large group situation is also very odd, no idea why you would do that except in situations where your MP is really taxed AND not worried about TP feed, and if you're relying on spell damage that much you're probably better off /rdm. I know I've won parses consistently vs several including a well-geared relic WAR in Einherjar doing that, and though haven't done Einherjar since getting Almace I'm not sure it'd pull ahead of /rdm for that event.

And for something completely unrelated HNM moves without setting spells but just using a JA, gonna be spamming those restore boxes just that much more.

You should have stopped there really.

Faster swinging is faster TP gain...

You are overexcited here by a lot. First you will need to set 4 spells for 5%TA on /war and for now you have 3 of them available and they are pretty useless besides giving you trait. So 10 points for useless spells and x point for 4th spell they will introduce, thats already a lot of room for good spells that you sacrificing here.

Also you misunderstood me when you get idea from my post that I suggested spamming delta in a large group. I wrote that BLU now shouldn't even be considered for a large group situation (and by large I don't mean 15+ but a group with BRD WHMs RDM and maybe COR) because with all healing, debuffs and haste that is present BLU won't offer much and will lose drastically in term of DD to pure DD jobs. BLU power is being all-in-one job that can offer much if you are limited to low numbers and need all kind of stuff. I wrote it might change if BLU get some seriously demand spell that will change course of the battle by itself. If that happen and you will be there on BLU already for that purpose then you can also focus on other things like DDing when you can , but for now there is no such spell.

So that leaves for BLU a lowman situations with limited support in which case spell damage will almost always beat melee and spamming delta will almost always result in best DPS. Those kind of situation also requires some very useful spells and I already have problem which spells to choose and you want to sacrifice at least ~12 points just for 5%TA and I think that's stupid.

Suggesting you will open even more recovery chest is also stupid because you dont even know if those abilities will be any useful in abyssea. Inb4 If you got whole this /war idea for abyssea then nvm because all my comments where for outside and maybe future events. Abyssea at 95 will be even easier and if you are already on BLU there for stagger (if you are not for stagger you should be on other job unless you AoE in which case /war would be very bad) and want to improve your melee dps by few% to kill mob 0.5sec faster it's fine but it is also so insignificant that I have no intention to discuss about it.

[Alistaire]

I will say yeah this chat is definitely overexcited, probably should've gone something like "ooh blu/war gets a boost" with replies like "yeah that might work out". Set points and what you'll need to sacrifice to be effective will play a role, but I already said that.

I chose my words carefully in my first post, blu/war will be "a contender". Not "zomg blu/war or gtfo lol".

And the bs about "double attack has decreasing returns" that occasionally pops up has been something I've been meaning to point out. Just happened in this thread. Another way to look at it being linear that may explain it is looking at the fact that in game terms a double attack takes 0 extra time, as well as the fact that because it takes 0 time, the more haste/dw you have the *better* DA/TA/QA gets. But it evens out. On paper it evens out exactly, with only small variations like "if you double attack and your first swing kills the mob the 2nd does nothing".

[Foldypaws]

Go here: http://www.mathwarehouse.com/riddles/math-riddles.php and go to Riddle #4. The reason you're wrong is exactly the same math error in that riddle. DA gives linear returns.

(Edit: just read their explanation and they don't really explain it well. But you may have heard that riddle before, it's common. Some other place might explain it better but I can't be bothered to search farther than the first google reply.)

That riddle is just about stupid wording. The hotel has 25, they each have 1 (3 total), and the bellhop has 2. That sums to 30. (alternately, they paid 9 each for 27, of which the bellhop has 2 and the hotel has 25).

It doesn't have anything at all to do with marginal returns vs total returns.

I'm not sure whether you're trolling, confused, or incompetent.

[Nightfyre]

Decreasing returns with respect to DPS, which is the only comparison that really matters. Get that shit out of here.

[dasva]

Also like to mention that you wont even be adding 10% to double attack even naked since the whole premise was on the grounds of needing /war to get double attack since at 95 we'd be able to use the double attack we can already set regardless of subjob and upgrade it triple attack

And if you want to get into the here and now the only thing /war is gaining us is not having to set DA... oh but wait have to set 4 spells of DW II, and berserk. Well attack bonus but the spells to set that are good CDC ones anyways

[doctorugh]

Prior to DA trait, typical DA during TP phase 13, typical TA
Swings per rounds: 1.1861
After DA trait: 1.2831
1.2831/1.1861 = +8.18%

Typical fTP (including multihit) for CDC (3TA,11DA) = 5.3334
After DA trait 5.5274
5.5274/5.3334 = +3.64% x 40%(typical % of total damage) = 1.45%

Adding DA trait to BLU outside abyssea (1.45+8.18) = 9.63%

Adding 10% DW to blue .8/.7 = 14.3% x 60%(typical % of total damage during TP phase) = 8.58%

Adding TA 5% to BLU with DA trait (1.3716/1.2831) + 0.4(1 - 5.7064/5.5274) = 8.2%

All seems relatively close.

[Foldypaws]

Prior to DA trait, typical DA during TP phase 13, typical TA
Swings per rounds: 1.1861
After DA trait: 1.2831
1.2831/1.1861 = +8.18%

Typical fTP (including multihit) for CDC (3TA,11DA) = 5.3334
After DA trait 5.5274
5.5274/5.3334 = +3.64% x 40%(typical % of total damage) = 1.45%

Adding DA trait to BLU outside abyssea (1.45+8.18) = 9.63%

Adding 10% DW to blue .8/.7 = 14.3% x 60%(typical % of total damage during TP phase) = 8.58%

Adding TA 5% to BLU with DA trait (1.3716/1.2831) + 0.4(1 - 5.7064/5.5274) = 8.2%

All seems relatively close.

DW isn't *only* more damage during TP phase. If it doesn't increase your hits/WS, it *always* increases your WS/time (even if it doesn't increase WS damage) and if it does increase your hits/WS it's still likely to increase your WS/time.

And more WS/time = more DPS from WS.

[fantasticdan]

I'm probably being too optimistic, but maybe they mean DA/TA, and gilfinder/TH will share the same spell equip sets, not necessarily replace each other? IE: rather than getting gilfinder II from equipping 4 spells that grant it, you get TH1 in addition to gilfinder.

[Prothescar]

I would be more than incredibly shit-myself-surprised if that were to be the case...

[shaddix]

Sorry to interject on the dev post excitement:

Nubbin blu, dunno shit, can anyone give me the list of blu spells that appear obviously good but are actually trash(like 1k needles?), and the list of spells that appear bad or marginal but are actually very useful?

[Atoreis]

Sorry to interject on the dev post excitement:

Nubbin blu, dunno shit, can anyone give me the list of blu spells that appear obviously good but are actually trash(like 1k needles?), and the list of spells that appear bad or marginal but are actually very useful?

You mean to cast only or what to set too?

Delta Thrust - very useful
Asuran Claws - shit
Final sting - shit
Auroral Drape - very useful
Regurgitation - very useful

[NotGreyheim]

Feather Barrier - shit
Everyone's Grudge - actually fairly impressive dark nuke

[doctorugh]

DW isn't *only* more damage during TP phase. If it doesn't increase your hits/WS, it *always* increases your WS/time (even if it doesn't increase WS damage) and if it does increase your hits/WS it's still likely to increase your WS/time.

And more WS/time = more DPS from WS.

If you have two magian str swords (as an example), with a combined delay of 460; at 20% DW, you will get 5 TP per hit (discluding store TP, because its relative). This will take 18 hits to hit 100 TP again (after WS) with an avg delay of 184.

184 x 18 = 3312

At 30% DW, you will get 4.5 TP per hit. So you will need 21 hits at delay 161

161 x 21 = 3381

So no, you dont ALWAYS get to WS faster. It depends where your hit build breaks. At this level, its usually irrelivant, which is why I left it out. Now what you are saying is generally true, but typically a miniscule % and not worth adding in unless you are using very low delay weapons with high DW (daggers for dnc as an example).

[dasva]

You actually get 4.8 tp per hit with 161 delay. So yes DW III would still be faster

[shaddix]

You mean to cast only or what to set too?

Delta Thrust - very useful
Asuran Claws - shit
Final sting - shit
Auroral Drape - very useful
Regurgitation - very useful

Both, gf's blu is currently level 30, only has pollen, etc.

Feather Barrier - shit
Everyone's Grudge - actually fairly impressive dark nuke

Thanks both of you!

[Foldypaws]

DW isn't *only* more damage during TP phase. If it doesn't increase your hits/WS, it *always* increases your WS/time (even if it doesn't increase WS damage) and if it does increase your hits/WS it's still likely to increase your WS/time.

And more WS/time = more DPS from WS.

If you have two magian str swords (as an example), with a combined delay of 460; at 20% DW, you will get 5 TP per hit (discluding store TP, because its relative). This will take 18 hits to hit 100 TP again (after WS) with an avg delay of 184.

184 x 18 = 3312

At 30% DW, you will get 4.5 TP per hit. So you will need 21 hits at delay 161

161 x 21 = 3381

So no, you dont ALWAYS get to WS faster. It depends where your hit build breaks. At this level, its usually irrelivant, which is why I left it out. Now what you are saying is generally true, but typically a miniscule % and not worth adding in unless you are using very low delay weapons with high DW (daggers for dnc as an example).

A:It always increases your ws/time *if* it doesn't increase your hits/WS. Like I said in the post you quoted. You can't prove me wrong by posting an example that increases your hits/WS and then say "look, it doesn't increase your WS/time".

B: the TP/ hit for 70% DW is wrong, it's 4.8. So you need 19 hits @ delay 161, or 3059 delay. So it's more WS/time. (8% more, actually.) So 8% more WS damage, which is at least 3% more *total* damage, putting DW3 at ~11.5% total damage.

Edit: Ninja'd on B!

[Daruma]

Just curious about this but...what are some peoples staple spell sets? Also, would it be possible if you all could tell me if IMDOINITWRONG? For instance these would be mine for my two main things:

CW:

head butt
sound blast
plasma charge
memento mori
magic fruit
enervation
regurgitation
animated wail
battery charge
regen
goblin rush
WoR
quad
fantod
dream flower
occultation
delta thrust
CW

Reg setup:
delta
benthic
quad
diss
gob rush
occult
regen
sub zero
vertical cleave
battery
animated
cimicine
head butt
magic fruit
regurg
WoR (sometimes)
fantod
final sting
dream flower

and as a side note I think would be an interesting thing to add as an update to blu in the future would be to add a trait to add more blu set points if you are subbing a mage class. But that will never happen...maybe

[Sylvrdragon]

My Regular bread and butter setup for melee DD with a few handy spells thrown in is:

Head Butt
Magic Fruit
Dream Flower
Winds of Promy.
Animating Wail
Battery Charge
Cocoon
Quad. Continuum
Goblin Rush
Disseverment
Delta Thrust
Vanity Dive
Acrid Stream
Empty Thrash
Whirl of Rage
Actinic Burst
Benthic Typhoon

This set gives me plenty of DD spells to work with (Typically enough to spam non-stop if I have to), a few handy traits like Refresh, Acc, Bonus, Double Attack, Dual Wield if necessary, SC Bonus, and probably more that I can't remember cause I'm not on BLU atm. It also leaves me pretty self-sufficient with a Heal, a Haste, a Refresh, a DEF Buff, and AOE Flash, Stun, and Sleep for those "Oh Shit" moments.

If I have to drop something from that set, it's usually the Defensive stuff first if I'm reasonably sure I won't need them, but if I decide that I wanna play safe, I'll usually ditch the DA spells first and then maybe Vanity Dive or Battery Charge depending on what I'm doing and what buffs I'm gonna have.

As for a Whisker set, my gear is good enough that I can one-shot most things, or use Whirl of Rage to finish off if I don't. As such, I don't set any "backup" AOEs or really worry about setting spells just for stat boosts. The staple spells that I make sure I have on for Whisker are:

Charged Whisker
Whirl of Rage
Memento Mori (For when I don't have an Ascetic's)
Dream Flower
Enervation
Sound Blast
Cocoon
Magic Fruit
Actinic Burst

These cover everything I might need to do when AOE Farming. There's really only about 5-6 spells difference between that and my default spell set.

[Sekundes]

I'm really glad all the math people are here to explain this stuff... I've read a lot but I've never seen the 'big picture' on damage to be able to calculate anything for a damn...