Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Byrthnoth]

Interesting... I wonder what causes the discrepancy of the result between the 2 tests.

Well, between the two tests it's pretty obvious which one has a more sound methodology. He's trying to see the difference in 10 evasion vs. 10 evasion skill while not controlling enemy level, and his data is pretty suspicious. For instance, after discarding the outlier or two that he happens to start every trial with:

"T" monsters in his control test: 62.9% Hit Rate
"EM" monsters in his control test: 63.3% Hit Rate

"T" monsters in his +10 Skill test: 62.3% Hit Rate
"EM" monsters in his +10 Skill test: 63.0% Hit Rate

"T" monsters in his +10 Evasion test: 69.15% Hit Rate
"EM" monsters in his +10 Evasion test: 70.1% Hit Rate

The difference between a "T" and "EM" monster is about 5 Acc for Steelshells at 75, but he shows almost no difference between them while showing a surprisingly strong and consistent difference between Evasion Skill and Evasion. I'd hazard a guess that the "outliers" at the beginning of his trials may be the only real data in there. It's not uncommon for people to start testing without fully realizing how long it's going to take. 1200 swings per crab * 2.5 seconds per swing = 50 minutes per crab. 50 minutes per crab * 20 crabs per sample * 3 samples = 50 hours of testing.

[Alistaire]

Interesting... I wonder what causes the discrepancy of the result between the 2 tests.

Then... recalculating dasva's point again:

(nin) 389 skills = 370 eva
370+22+30 = 422

If we're going to count BLU's acc down resource we should count Blade: Kamu for NIN, though I don't know how much acc down that is.

[fantasticdan]

If you're comparing blu to pup and nin for eva solo, you also have to count in the huge mana upkeep we have to spend keeping up slow + blind + para compared to them, which is pretty impractical without an extra source of refresh. If you're using af3 body, you're also another 12 eva behind.

[Prothescar]

Para is unnecessary. Slow is cheap. I have no MP issues keeping necessary debuffs up on BLU, you're likely doing it wrong.

Also, if you're using an EVA set, you shouldn't be wearing empyrean body.

[fantasticdan]

Even with just filamented hold and auroral drape, you're spending more mp than you're getting back with auto-refresh + battery charge, and that's assuming they always last their max durations, which auroral drape generally doesn't tend to do in my experience on anything worth casting it on. Add in delta thrust for plague, barbed crescent, and the occasional spiral spin/headbutt, and you're way in the red. The longevity simply isn't there compared to those other jobs. And let's not even talk about when you have to magic fruit to recover from unavoidable tp moves/bad luck on dodges/double attacks.

Another thing about relying on auroral drape, is the fact that the mob suddenly has +30% hit rate on you when it falls off until you get it back up. combined with the 4 second casting time, that's pretty scary, unless you're using flash/stun in conjunction with it every cycle.

[Prothescar]

Not many things will either A) survive long enough for it to become and issue or B ) will be aspirable. BLU has the ability to kill far faster than a DNC or THF, and at the same pace or faster than a NIN depending on where you are. Sanguine Blade can help compensate for Magic Fruit as well as our 2 efficient drain spells. Filamented Hold is pointless unless you really need to slow multiple targets, sprout smack is cheaper and is nearly as effective for double the duration. Auto Refresh + Battery Charge covers the cost of Sprout Smack, Auroral Drape, Sub-zero smash and Barbed Crescent. If MP is that horrible, then do drop SH+1 in favor of emp body +2, the 12 evasion won't break you on most things, and/or can drop Sub-Zero smash.

I have never had an issue with Auroral Drape's Blind being resisted enough times to cause as much of an issue as you're making it out to be either. It is a random duration, but it almost always lasts just near the recast time. Recasting it should not be a problem either, if it is an issue for you play on one of your easier evasion-capable jobs.

Also, Spiral Spin and Barbed Crescent do not stack. They're both Accuracy Down effects. I'll assume you meant Sudden Lunge in which case the utility of its stun effect far outweigh its measly 18 MP cost.

Could also boil it down to utility. Beyond killspeed, BLU also gains TH2, which only THF can match or surpass. NIN and DNC get access to only TH1 without wasting their sub job.

[Atoreis]

Not many things will either A) survive long enough for it to become and issue or B ) will be aspirable. BLU has the ability to kill far faster than a DNC or THF, and at the same pace or faster than a NIN depending on where you are. Sanguine Blade can help compensate for Magic Fruit as well as our 2 efficient drain spells. Filamented Hold is pointless unless you really need to slow multiple targets, sprout smack is cheaper and is nearly as effective for double the duration. Auto Refresh + Battery Charge covers the cost of Sprout Smack, Auroral Drape, Sub-zero smash and Barbed Crescent. If MP is that horrible, then do drop SH+1 in favor of emp body +2, the 12 evasion won't break you on most things, and/or can drop Sub-Zero smash.

I have never had an issue with Auroral Drape's Blind being resisted enough times to cause as much of an issue as you're making it out to be either. It is a random duration, but it almost always lasts just near the recast time. Recasting it should not be a problem either, if it is an issue for you play on one of your easier evasion-capable jobs.

Also, Spiral Spin and Barbed Crescent do not stack. They're both Accuracy Down effects. I'll assume you meant Sudden Lunge in which case the utility of its stun effect far outweigh its measly 18 MP cost.

Could also boil it down to utility. Beyond killspeed, BLU also gains TH2, which only THF can match or surpass. NIN and DNC get access to only TH1 without wasting their sub job.

Can you please post at least 3 example of single mob where bolded will be true and at the same time mob will be worth all those debuffs and at the same time you can evasion tank it on BLU. I am really curious

[Prothescar]

You're right, they probably won't be worth all of the debuffs. So BLU just has a superior kill speed while maintaining high to capped evade rate on most anything you'd want to bother soloing. If BLU isn't capable of evasion tanking it, it's not likely that those other jobs are with the possible exception of THF.

If you're trying to argue that BLU can't kill faster than DNC and THF and on the same ground or sometimes faster than a NIN, then I don't know what to tell you. Suck less? DNC is probably capable of being grouped with NIN in this relationship, but THF is behind any of the three in any (solo) situation possible.

[dasva]

Also mobs that aren't that hard to evasion tank for evasion jobs but have nasty tp moves blu can steal all the tp. Gogo fights where you take 0 dmg. Be a funny cactuar fight at least

[Atoreis]

You're right, they probably won't be worth all of the debuffs. So BLU just has a superior kill speed while maintaining high to capped evade rate on most anything you'd want to bother soloing. If BLU isn't capable of evasion tanking it, it's not likely that those other jobs are with the possible exception of THF.

If you're trying to argue that BLU can't kill faster than DNC and THF and on the same ground or sometimes faster than a NIN, then I don't know what to tell you. Suck less? DNC is probably capable of being grouped with NIN in this relationship, but THF is behind any of the three in any (solo) situation possible.

You get me wrong. I meant BLU wont kill faster anything that you can successfully tanking by debuffing. Mob would need to have like 30k HP(because anything around 20k and lower DNC would be half way killing before you would be done debuffing) hits hard and fairly accurate to justify debuffing instead of simple occultation + shadows.

Btw you hardly underestimate capability of DNC with twashtar at soloing one mob. Its much stronger than THF or NIN simply because of dnc/sam can Evis > Rudra > rudra for around 1500>2500+2800>2500+6000(thats avg) on anything that not resist darkness. That combo can be done before you end debuffs on BLU so to keep up you would need to start zerg pretty much from start instead of debuffing.

[Prothescar]

That's a ridiculous argument. DNC/SAM? For solo? Would likely lower your damage output more than it increases it. Spending all of your TP on the cures after the initial burst is not conducive to your overall output.

You're also not factoring in Azure Lore. If it's a matter of "zerging the mob down" BLU is superior.

Edit: LOL CONTUSION, FUCK YOU FIREFOX.

[Helel]

You get me wrong. I meant BLU wont kill faster anything that you can successfully tanking by debuffing. Mob would need to have like 30k HP(because anything around 20k and lower DNC would be half way killing before you would be done debuffing) hits hard and fairly accurate to justify debuffing instead of simple occultation + shadows.

Btw you hardly underestimate capability of DNC with twashtar at soloing one mob. Its much stronger than THF or NIN simply because of dnc/sam can Evis > Rudra > rudra for around 1500>2500+2800>2500+6000(thats avg) on anything that not resist darkness. That combo can be done before you end debuffs on BLU so to keep up you would need to start zerg pretty much from start instead of debuffing.

Ok well if you're talking about zerging, BLU can pump out damage much faster than DNC can, especially with 2-hour. I don't think that's the point of this discussion though. Any EP mob (pretty much any mob that existed at the 75 cap) BLU is going to destroy it period. You're right that you're probably better off not casting debuffs though. Sudden lunge alone does the trick for me. I don't even bother with evasion.

[Atoreis]

Ok well if you're talking about zerging, BLU can pump out damage much faster than DNC can, especially with 2-hour. I don't think that's the point of this discussion though. Any EP mob (pretty much any mob that existed at the 75 cap) BLU is going to destroy it period. You're right that you're probably better off not casting debuffs though. Sudden lunge alone does the trick for me. I don't even bother with evasion.

I think you missed the point. Thats exactly was an argument that BLU can only do it faster when he start damage from start instead of debuffing. None talking about 2hr tho.

Pro you are really good at taking from posts what fits your answer and forget the rest. I said about mob that has around 20+k HP and my initial burst will take at least 60% of its hp in around 10-15 sec. Since we talking about a mob that you can evasion tanking I would probably got hit maybe twice. Lets say it hits for around 250 so around 75 dmg taken with fan dance up during this combo. Other 40% would take around 30-45 sec so I have no idea why I would need to cure at all, I would simply kill it before it could kill me. We talking about 1 mob that you want to kill, if you have several mobs then obviously /nin would be better. The problem is mob like that no exist outside of abyssea and in abyssea you kills them because you want something from them (items or KI) and you would rather than come on MNK for blue stagger and take meds with you or NIN for red stagger (these are very rare anyway usually you have lowman party for that). Outside of abyssea mobs are either too hard for evasion tank on blu or too weak to bother debuffing them because you can just throw 1-3 sudden lunge to stun them whole fight.

[Prothescar]

And if you want initial bursts and who kills faster, BLU is superior. I'll double your 15k damage and add some change to it. You can't discount 2hr as valid, your numbers are clearly Abyssea-oriented, where 2hrs are easily replenished. If it's a mob that you're going to zerg on DNC and that's your only strategy, my BLU will do it better.

[Byrthnoth]

Naw, those are outside Abyssea numbers. He's assuming you start with 5 FMs, NFR, and >200 TP, though.

[dasva]

Btw you hardly underestimate capability of DNC with twashtar at soloing one mob. Its much stronger than THF or NIN simply because of dnc/sam can Evis > Rudra > rudra for around 1500>2500+2800>2500+6000(thats avg) on anything that not resist darkness. That combo can be done before you end debuffs on BLU so to keep up you would need to start zerg pretty much from start instead of debuffing.

Your numbers are a little weird. If your 1st rudras did 2500 your first darkness should do a little over 3k not 2800. And if your 2nd rudra's does 2500 then your 2nd darkness should do 4600. Have no idea how you got a 3 step doing 240% dmg of the closing ws. That's a little less than what a 6 step would be doing on dnc...

[Atoreis]

And if you want initial bursts and who kills faster, BLU is superior. I'll double your 15k damage and add some change to it. You can't discount 2hr as valid, your numbers are clearly Abyssea-oriented, where 2hrs are easily replenished. If it's a mob that you're going to zerg on DNC and that's your only strategy, my BLU will do it better.

Man you need to calm down and try to read my post from start to end for once.
In 2 posts I made I claimed that BLU can win IF you start zering from start instead of debuffing. Your 2 posts are some BLU rage that tells exactly the same as me...
I will even quote myself to make it easier for you

That combo can be done before you end debuffs on BLU so to keep up you would need to start zerg pretty much from start instead of debuffing.

BLU can only do it faster when he start damage from start instead of debuffing. None talking about 2hr tho.

Like Byrth said its outside numbers and yeah I assumed I can prepare 200TP before fight with one NM. If you assume you start with nothing it would take around 15-20 sec to make 200 TP (using meditate). Inside abyssea I wouldnt even bother with that.

[dasva]

Oh yeah well I can go blu/sam and up do CDC goblin rush into another CDC for double light... then spam 10 spells and do a backflip!

[Atoreis]

Oh yeah well I can go blu/sam and up do CDC goblin rush into another CDC for double light... then spam 10 spells and do a backflip!

Yeah with KC offhand and luck 8 hits

[Byrthnoth]

Assuming 1500 -> 2500 -> 2500 for WSs, it would be:
1500 -> 2500 -> 3250 -> 2500 -> 4875 damage (1.3 skillchain bonus at the moment, will be 1.33 at 99)

So 14625 damage. Just eyeballed, those Climactic'd Rudra's estimations are low for some monsters and high for others, but they assume the main hit lands (and it doesn't always). The Evisceration damage is a little high, imop. That's a trash mob number. I'd say 15,000 damage in a burst every 3 minutes is a reasonable estimation (maybe closer to 13,000 average), but how often do you really fight things with >10,000 HP on Dancer?

Salvage and Dynamis are the only two places I really bring Dancer at the moment, so NMs and ramparts in either place would be ~one-shottable with that combo assuming it all lands. Unfortunately, I sub nothing in Dynamis and THF in Salvage so I'm restricted to single darkness skillchain. Being able to Evisceration -> SA -> Rudra's on Chariots is kind of nice, though, and sometimes I do get wings, but I always save them for the boss and he ends up dying before I get my combo off >;/