Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Yugl]

Maybe the fTP by chance? I know there is a monster correlation that affects the fTP of breath spells (Typically, that number is set to 1), so it's possibly due to that. To clarify, I'm suggesting that they added a non-1 fTP that messes up the number (Or you did the spell on a mob that offers an fTP Bonus).

Edit: Probably isn't correlation since that would be ~80%. Also, does 253/375 work?

[Prothescar]

No and no. Breaths do not have a real fTP.

[dasva]

Could it be something weird like divide by something floor then multiply?

[Yugl]

No and no. Breaths do not have a real fTP.

They do since fTP is necessary for monster correlation bonus. http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103...=1#post4656114

[Prothescar]

Not quite.

Correlation is +/- 0.25 to fTP, for breaths, it simply adds or subtracts 25% damage. It would work to say that all breaths have a stagnant fTP of 1.0 for this to work off of, and while it's possible, it's pointless to say it has one. It's semantics, but there isn't a single case of a breath having a non-1.0 fTP.

It's HP/1.4823.

[Yugl]

It's more consistent to say it has one because correlation would have nothing to add to if it didn't exist. Why make complicate the picture by making the effect differentiate between breaths and normal magic?

Edit: You can go ahead and say it doesn't exist, but it's a double sided claim to suggest that it doesn't exist and that it doesn't exist because you don't want to call recognize it as such. I won't bother discussing this further.

[Prothescar]

Not because breaths are already different from normal magic in every possible respect or anything. But again, semantics.

Edit: You're completely missing the point. Suggesting that it's due to different fTP also suggests that you have no idea how breaths work. There's 0 , zilch, nada, zero reason to believe that the variable of fTP exists for breaths. It's similar to spirit damage in that rather than true fTP, spirit damage has a damage multiplier based on the other variables in the way that the damage is calculated.

For instance, Spirits Within. It has a damage multiplier based on both HP and TP. Atonement has one for both CE and VE but has a cap. These can be compared to the way fTP multiplies base damage, but it's not the same thing.

For physical and magical WSs and spells, fTP has a purpose in that it's a multiplier that varies from WS to WS, from spell to spell, and correlation is added on top of this as a bonus. For breaths, there is no variation and this multiplier exists only for correlation purposes. Therefore it's better viewed as a correlation multiplier rather than a multi-purpose damage multiplier.



HP/1.4823 fits every HP value between level 97 and 99 that I was capable of achieving.

[Yugl]

You're waffling between your point. It's either semantics or it's something that doesn't exist. Pick one. The first is pointless to discuss, so I dropped the issue when you said it was that. The second, you claim, has no base for support. That is false. There are five reasons to believe that your statement is false.

Support 1
1) Monster Correlation grants a bonus or detriment to fTP
2) Therefore, it is more likely for fTP to exist if correlation exists (The only exception to this that I know of is Boost, which cannot impose an attack component on Chi blast)
3) Breath spells are affected by correlation
4) Since breaths have correlation, they have fTP

Support 2
1) Convergence is a multiplier affecting the left side of the equation as fTP
2) Convergence affects breath spells

Support 3
1) Correlation is an added bonus on all nuke type spells
2) Thus, it is more consistent to maintain addition than to change it to multiplication

Support 4
1) It is more consistent of SE to make the effect of a JA add or modify the same component across varieties of areas where the JA takes affect

Support 5 (The most important one)
1) BLU fTP is on a 1024 system
2) If you read the link, you would see that the atma's effect (Monster correlation) cleanly follows the 1024 system where as a straight multiplier would put you in a odd spot between 0.077-0.8 (Neither of these values work, but 80/1024 does)
3) Thus, it seems more reasonable to side with a 1024 system

Again, if you personally do not want to call it fTP, that is fine and I don't care. However, if you're going to continue tell people that they're wrong for saying breath spells have fTP, you're unnecessarily starting a conflict.

Edit: Also Xanthe, posted that gorget affects atonement a while back (Not sure if anyone found an error with his testing though), which suggests a fTP component.

[Prothescar]

First off, you need to go back and read more carefully my posts as never did I specify that it's impossible for fTP to exist on breaths. It is, however, not entirely implausible that it does not. You appear to need your hand held for the reading comprehension portion of this exercise, allow me to aid you:

1) "It would work to say that all breaths have a stagnant fTP of 1.0 for this to work off of, and while it's possible, it's pointless to say it has one. It's semantics, but there isn't a single case of a breath having a non-1.0 fTP. " Please read this small paragraph very carefully.

2) Your monster correlation evidence is irrelevant. You may call it a bonus to fTP, but I may call it a straight Correlation Multiplier of + or - 25% damage. You're saying that correlation without a doubt affects breath fTP when there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that breaths have an fTP at all and it isn't just a correlation multiplier. A 1000 damage breath will become 1250 under positive correlation and 750 under negative every single time for every single breath.

3) No breaths have varying fTP. Not a single one. Every single breath is either 1.0 fTP OR does not have an fTP to begin with, and instead has a damage multiplier similar to Spirit damage. There is absolutely no reason for fTP to exist on a breath spell. Period.

4) Your Convergence evidence baffles me. It is not on the left side first off, it's the very last thing added to the damage calculation for both nukes and breaths. Convergence does not have any effect on fTP, it is a straight 25% damage increase. How this makes Convergence relevant to this conversation at all is not something that I'm capable of decoding.

5) No, blue magic fTP is on the /256 scale. Hint: All fTP is.

You're essentially just arguing what to call it and tossing in irrelevant information. It's semantics, that's what I've coined it as from the beginning. Your inability to grasp this concept is not my issue.

ITT: One multiplier comes before another, then if the first exists the second has to as well. Derp.

[Yugl]

First off, you need to go back and read more carefully my posts as never did I specify that it's impossible for fTP to exist on breaths.

Breaths do not have a real fTP.

You're contradicting yourself. To be sure, the only way you could wrangle out of a contradiction is to say that it is possible (In the future or "other worlds") for fTP to exist. However, we're not discussing that, so it would be an absurd counter.

Spoilered so others can fly by these posts:

Spoiler: show

It is, however, not entirely implausible that it does not. You appear to need your hand held for the reading comprehension portion of this exercise, allow me to aid you

I will warn you right now that dumbing this discussion down into personal attacks will not bode well for anyone. Stick to the numbers.

Spoiler: show

1) "It would work to say that all breaths have a stagnant fTP of 1.0 for this to work off of, and while it's possible, it's pointless to say it has one. It's semantics, but there isn't a single case of a breath having a non-1.0 fTP. " Please read this small paragraph very carefully.

2) Your monster correlation evidence is irrelevant. You may call it a bonus to fTP, but I may call it a straight Correlation Multiplier of + or - 25% damage. You're saying that correlation without a doubt affects breath fTP when there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that breaths have an fTP at all and it isn't just a correlation multiplier. A 1000 damage breath will become 1250 under positive correlation and 750 under negative every single time for every single breath.

3) No breaths have varying fTP. Not a single one. Every single breath is either 1.0 fTP OR does not have an fTP to begin with, and instead has a damage multiplier similar to Spirit damage. There is absolutely no reason for fTP to exist on a breath spell. Period.

4) Your Convergence evidence baffles me. It is not on the left side first off, it's the very last thing added to the damage calculation for both nukes and breaths. Convergence does not have any effect on fTP, it is a straight 25% damage increase. How this makes Convergence relevant to this conversation at all is not something that I'm capable of decoding.

5) No, blue magic fTP is on the /256 scale. Hint: All fTP is.

1 and 3: It's all about how you define fTP. If it's defined as a multiplier that is affected by monster correlation, then it exists. If you define it as a multiplier that has to change between spells of a user-made category, then it does not. It doesn't matter. What does matter is that you insist that it does not (See the above non-spoilered quote). This is why I keep telling you that you're waffling. On one hand, you want to say "it's all semantics, let it be" and on the other hand you want to harp on people for using the term.
2 and 5: I will gladly agree if there is proof because the point is only proves a correlation between breath spells and fTP.
4: I don't have convergence merited, so I used this page for determining the location: http://bg-wiki.com/bg/Calculating_Blue_Magic_Damage; if the information there is false and you have evidence, then edit it. Otherwise, you're resorting to personal attacks to buffer a weak argument.

Overall, you're contradicting yourself by saying that fTP does not exist (As a fact) and then saying that it's not impossible for fTP to exist. You want to say "leave it be" but then harp on others for using the term. You want to say that there is no evidence to definitively say it exists, so it does not; however, I have shown that it more likely than not exists.

Have you considered what it even means to say that it does not exist? If stuff that traditionally affects it continues to affect it in the same manner, then what more do you want? It's an absurd demand. There's no absolute "HEY THIS IS X" because X is not real. It is a convenient term we use to refer to a portion of the equation.

Like I've said in my last two posts. If you genuinely mean to say it's semantics, then just leave it at that! No need to trash talk or harp on others for deciding to apply the "same concept" differently.

[Prothescar]

You can warn me all you want, the spreading of false information that I've recently been noticing is beginning to try my patience.

It isn't "convenient" it's "confusing". Calling it fTP will open the door for people to start coming up with stupid ideas relating to breaths being variable. They are not. Outside of variables such as HP and level which will vary based on spell but can be set to match others given appropriate HP values, Convergence, Correlation, breath damage and breath damage taken multiply or divide the damage by a specific amount that is static for every breath spell.

No damage multiplier akin to fTP that varies between different breaths exists. As was suggested by someone previously, calling it fTP is just inviting people to think it matters. It's a necessary component for other types of spells, but it is irrelevant for breaths. Referring to it as fTP will have people start believing that it has relevance. We don't need more idiots.

[Nightfyre]

Stupidest argument in here in a while, and that's saying something. If you can't provide a mechanics-based reasoning to not call it fTP, just leave it be. 1.0 is simple enough to disregard and it may not even be a factor to begin with assuming they didn't actually give it a non-1.0 "fTP".

[Prothescar]

It isn't different for one subclass of spells. It functions the same way for every type of spell. It's a 5~25% bonus to damage based on merits for any magical blue magic spell. What part isn't clear? I found it a very simple concept to understand. The bonus of Convergence is added after every single other element of the calculation of the spell. It in no way augments fTP. Is that clear? Your concept on how Convergence functions is off by a considerable margin.

I'll even take time out of my day to go gather evidence for you. Sound good?

[Nightfyre]

It isn't different for one subclass of spells. It functions the same way for every type of spell. It's a 5~25% bonus to damage based on merits for any magical blue magic spell. What part isn't clear? I found it a very simple concept to understand. The bonus of Convergence is added after every single other element of the calculation of the spell. It in no way augments fTP. Is that clear? Your concept on how Convergence functions is off by a considerable margin.

Sorry, I appear to have missed a change in focus and/or you caught a quick edit where I may have mistyped Convergence instead of correlation.

EDIT: You have verified the +/- 25% change via correlation for Thunder Breath post-update?

[Yugl]

You can warn me all you want, the spreading of false information that I've recently been noticing is beginning to try my patience.

It isn't "convenient" it's "confusing". Calling it fTP will open the door for people to start coming up with stupid ideas relating to breaths being variable. They are not. Outside of variables such as HP and level which will vary based on spell but can be set to match others given appropriate HP values, Convergence, Correlation, breath damage and breath damage taken multiply or divide the damage by a specific amount that is static for every breath spell.

No damage multiplier akin to fTP that varies between different breaths exists. As was suggested by someone previously, calling it fTP is just inviting people to think it matters. It's a necessary component for other types of spells, but it is irrelevant for breaths. Referring to it as fTP will have people start believing that it has relevance. We don't need more idiots.

Spoilered to people can skip.

Spoiler: show

Do you not see that you are continuing to contradict yourself? You say it doesn't exist. You then say it's "just semantics." You now say that I am spreading false information and the information I am spreading is that breath spells have fTP. Thus, you are saying that it is false for fTP on breath spells to exist. Prior to this, you were saying that it is not impossible for fTP to exist and that I am [list of insults here] for not reading your posts and seeing that you were making that claim. It's clear that you're changing your position to suit your needs, and in the process, attacking my credibility with outlandish ad hominems.

Your "proof" that I am spreading misinformation is that I am calling the term fTP. Your "proof" that it is misinformation is that it can cause people to make assumptions that are untrue. What are these assumptions? The only one you list is that people will think breath spells are variable. They are variable. Their damage varies based on a number of factors. With that cleared, you have no reason to accuse me of spreading false information. So it seems that you're the one spreading false information.

You want to say that it is fTP does not exist because it does not vary from spell-to-spell. I say that it exists because the factors that typically modify fTP (Such as monster correlation) affect breath spells. Before, I was willing to leave it at semantics. However, I can show that you are conventionally at fault. Recall that fTP originated from elemental and physical weapon skills. The term literally refers to "function of TP." There are no functions of TP in neither blue breaths nor blue nukes. Yet, you admit that blue nukes have fTP in this post. If it's not a function of TP, then how can you say blue nukes have fTP? Is it because the the value changes across blue magic like with elemental WS? If that is all that matters, then you cannot distinguish between WSC, TM, alpha, and fTP. Is it because of it's position in the equation? If so, then either physical or elemental weapon skills do not have fTP because fTP operates in different areas for both. It is clear that none of your arguments for fTP not existing are consistent with your usage for blue nukes.

However, I can maintain consistency because all I am saying is that it is a remainder affected by the same factors that affect fTP within its respective class (Blue Magic). In other words, things that affect blue nuke fTP (Correlation) affect breath's fTP in the same manner. Similarly, things that affect WS fTP (Like gorgets) affect WS in a similar manner. It is consistency within these groups that lead me to believe they exhibit the same components. Thus, is it more reasonable to assume the existence.

Edit: No one said convergence affects the fTP. You seem to have missed the point completely. Convergence was brought up because convergence affects breath spells and is on the same side of the addition equation ([This side]+[dSTAT*TM]) as fTP.

[Prothescar]

First off, you have it backwards. Convergence is not on the left side of the equation, however I fail to see how it's relevant. What's your reasoning unless you're insinuating that they both use the same function for damage?

Again I would urge you to read my posts more carefully as I quite clearly said that there is no damage multiplier akin to fTP that varies between different breaths. I even expressly said "Outside of variables such as HP and level which will vary based on spell but can be set to match others given appropriate HP values". This states that the values of HP and level cause variable amounts of damage between breaths, however no function such as fTP has any effect in their calculation.

Blue Magic Nukes have variability in their fTP, it can be clearly defined as a value that is the same as fTP in all but namesake. Breaths do not have this variable. They get straight damage bonuses via job abilities and correlation, +/- 25% each. Semantics as they've been all along, and as I've written several times.



Evidence for Nightfyre:

1230 damage to a demon
984 damage to a skeleton

984 * .25 = 246
984 + 246 = 1230

25% bonus.

It's impossible to test for negative correlation on a dragon ability, however it is also irrelevant.

[Atoreis]

So I can say CHR affects the chance of learning blue magic and HP affects the drop rate of Kraken Club because there is no proofs that its wrong? I see.

[Prothescar]

http://i384.photobucket.com/albums/o...fsssaawefa.png

Proof now in screenshotty goodness for anyone with doubts as to my validity.

[Yugl]

Spoilers for others to skip.

Spoiler: show

First off, you have it backwards. Convergence is not on the left side of the equation, however I fail to see how it's relevant. What's your reasoning unless you're insinuating that they both use the same function for damage?

I'm suggesting that you are ignoring the inference to the best explanation. There is less proof for correlation being a straight multiplier in breath spells than it being an fTP function (fTP=1; fTP+Correlation). Coincidentally, things that affect BLU nuke fTP also affect BLU breath in the same manner. Coincidentally, all the non-multiplier factors affecting breath spells can be found on the same side of the addition equation. Coincidentally, the fractional representation of correlation's effect on BLU nuke fTP (As per the atma test) is the same as that applied to breaths (Both along the 256 system and both affecting the damage in the same way). All of this supports fTP over a straight multiplier. That breath spells have the same fTP is not reason to believe it does not exist. Nor is it reason to believe that correlation becomes its own multiplier. All that it means is that you cannot detect the fTP just by changing the spell. However, you can detect the fTP! You do it by changing the monster correlation.

Again I would urge you to read my posts more carefully as I quite clearly said that there is no damage multiplier akin to fTP that varies between different breaths. I even expressly said "Outside of variables such as HP and level which will vary based on spell but can be set to match others given appropriate HP values". This states that the values of HP and level cause variable amounts of damage between breaths, however no function such as fTP has any effect in their calculation.

I get the feeling you're not reading my posts because I explicitly address these issues. The first sentence I addressed by saying that the multiplier is there, but that there is no differentiation. However, as I said earlier in this post and others, no differentiation doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The fTP portion does affect breath spell calculation when correlation becomes involved. Correlation affects fTP. Thus, the felt effect of correlation suggests it exists. Why? It's the same reason we use fTP across physical and elemental WS even though they occupy the same slot: The things that affect them affect them in the same manner. Similarly, having fTP for breath spells makes correlation affect breath and nukes the same way.

Blue Magic Nukes have variability in their fTP, it can be clearly defined as a value that is the same as fTP in all but namesake. Breaths do not have this variable. They get straight damage bonuses via job abilities and correlation, +/- 25% each. Semantics as they've been all along, and as I've written several times.

Why does fTP need to change between spells to be fTP? It's not an issue of definition because fTP means function of TP (Neither nukes nor breath spells depend on TP). It is not a necessity that two spells have different fTP either. So what proves that it is a multiplier rather than an fTP?

You've waffled back and forth between maintaining that it is semantics and that it is absolute truth. Do not bother bringing that up because it's clear that you do not believe that.

Evidence for Nightfyre:

1230 damage to a demon
984 damage to a skeleton

984 * .25 = 246
984 + 246 = 1230

25% bonus.

I hope you have better proof than that because that it not inconsistent with what has been said. According to BG-wiki, the formula for blue nukes is:

[{(LV+2+WSC%)fTP}Convergence] + [dSTAT*TM]

Now, if you take the LEFT SIDE of this equation (Hence, why I said convergence is on the left side), you get everything you need for breath spells. Specifically, if you rewrite it as follows:

[{(fLV+MOD)fTP}Convergence]

Where:
fLV for nukes = LV+2
fLV for breaths = Varies

MOD for nukes = (BA(Alpha(STAT1%+STAT2%))
MOD for breaths = HP Function

fTP for nukes = Varies
fTP for breath = 1

Even if Convergence turned out to be a far right multiplier like SDT, it wouldn't change the fact that everything you need for breath spells happens to be in the same spot. What might really be said about breath spells then is that their TM is zero and that certain other properties like MAB turn to 1 (Which is the case for certain nukes as well mind you!).

Thanks for posting pictures that maintain that fTP can exist for breath spells?

If fTP gains a 64/256 bonus when used against the right mob, you get the same effect.

fTP = 1 against the skele; fTP=1.25 against the demon

(984)*(1) = 984

(984)*(320/256) = 1230

See? The fTP equation accounts for that.

[Prothescar]

You're basically arguing that the order of operations is relevant. That would only truly be relevant if there were a single function for breaths, spells, etc., and with the things that it ignores and doesn't ignore, that work on one thing and another.

Your order, and subsequently BGwiki, is wrong. While I can see your reasoning, this does not change.

It's pointless to argue this further, I'll call it what I want you can call it what you want. The first idiot to suggest an idea that breath fTP can be variable and augmented via some stupid means will be shot.