Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Prothescar]

Your average added delay between a Blue Mage who sets all thirty two proc spells and a Blue Mage who does not is 5.95 seconds. Five point nine five seconds. Cinco puntos de nueve cinco segundos. That's assuming that the BLU setting all thirty two spells is breaking the game by being capable of setting more spells than possible, which is even adding a handicap to that BLU.

Your entire argument is to maximize efficiency, and you don't seem to realize that the entire time you've been arguing against maximum efficiency. It baffles me that this has been able to happen. You're just uninformed and refuse to believe anything outside of your bubble.

[Nightfyre]

all it does is make easy content faster

And we're talking about Voidwatch, so that encompasses... pretty much everything except Botulus Rex, Ig-alima, and maybe Kalasutrax. Don't get me wrong, I focus on procs when it's necessary but most fights it's just not enough of an issue and ultimately the extra damage I bring to the table ends up being more useful simply because it gets shit done faster. Rapid NQ procs are kind of irrelevant when you hit EV+HV and it's dead by the time stagger wears.

It's the same argument as the old PLD vs DD tank argument at 75: both were sufficient, PLD was somewhat safer, DDs got it done faster.

I will say that certain NMs may be more efficiently handled with nuking regardless of your party slot, and in this case you can definitely afford to leave more slots open for procs since a few points of INT don't have the same kind of impact a full trait does. I may still disregard NVs that I don't have set unless there's actually a possibility of procs drying up though.

There is a decent chance for a BLU without a healer to die if there are no procs. On something AOE heavy like pil, I could definitely see an aggressive DD blu having a good chance at dying if there was a period without procs. Fact of the matter is that a little extra damage is much less important if it is slowing down your procs. Everything dies in under 5 minutes with or without your damage, so long as people don't slack on procing. If someone could show me a good DD blu that never dies and is spot on with procing, I'd gladly accept it. I just don't think it's a good thing to be encouraging to the masses, especially considering how terrible most people are.

What is Fanatic's and PDT/MDT gear? BLU is plenty sturdy, if a BLU is going down then other equally prepared DDs placed in the same situation would go down too. Pil is also a really terrible example there since a meleeing BLU can help the COR(s) tear its shield down the moment it comes up thanks to Requiescat. Flank Opening is less of a threat and nobody has to worry about finding the shield's vulnerability if it's not an immediately available damage type.

[Atoreis]

Assuming in the 3 min fight you doing full damage for 2min and you parsing 15% damage.
Thats 18 sec. You want to tell me that 5%TA 15%DW and sTP is damage +50%? I would argue that not playing optimal DD when you are in the menu setting spells lower your dmg more than not having dd traits. Now you gonna tell me that you can 100% focus on fight and WS asap at 100TP+ and change to TP gear before you swing and set spells at the same time.

[Prothescar]

50% of 18 is 6? Nice math. That's 33%.

Yes, I would put 15% DW, 5% TA, and +10 Store TP at around that high of a boost to DPS. Want to bring out some sort of evidence to dispute how 6 seconds of delay between procs at maximum is going to cause the BLU to be less effective when compared with a BLU who sets all spells and does NO DD whatsoever? Because I need a good laugh.

You're still completely ignoring the fact that the BLU with 3-4 spell sets set would still be even WORSE off than the 6 second disparity in delay compared to the previous example while still losing a chunk of their DPS.

[Atoreis]

50% gain 12+50%=18 Math is hard I know.

[Prothescar]

More arbitrary numbers to inflate your opinion to make it look more reasonable. It doesn't work that way, sugar. 50% looks a lot better than 33%, six seconds being shaved off of the fight. When working with numbers so small, a 50% increase in damage is far easier to make.

If you don't see how gaining two attack rounds to 100TP, 15% delay, and a decent amount of hits/round avg+ is a significant boost to your DPS, particularly in the case where the BLU doesn't have support, then I don't know what to tell you.

[Atoreis]

Lets say you do 100 dmg per sec for 18 sec to kill mob that has 1800HP
Now you need to kill it in 12 sec.
You need to make 150 dmg per second to make that.
50% boost to your dmg.
Cant make it easier so you can understand.

[Prothescar]

I'm not going to bother continuing to argue with someone who's this stupid, as it's a pointless venture. Even the worst case scenario using incredibly fast math that doesn't take into account every variable, which could and more than likely would increase this value even further, the estimated damage increase is 30%, which would be more than adequate to cover the time added by setting proc spells, particularly when considering the difference in time between procs for setting a couple more sets of spells is under a second, which you're not admitting to or simply do not realize.

Tell me, as I'm curious as to how you're basing your conclusions, what is the difference between setting four spells and sixteen (both being the average amount of full sets you'll be able to have equipped in each scenario)? How many seconds difference in delay is it? How many seconds do you believe need to be shaved off by those extra spell sets in order to transcend the difference of a 30% or more damage increase?

[Atoreis]

I'm not going to bother continuing to argue with someone who's this stupid, as it's a pointless venture. Even the worst case scenario using incredibly fast math that doesn't take into account every variable, which could and more than likely would increase this value even further, the estimated damage increase is 30%, which would be more than adequate to cover the time added by setting proc spells, particularly when considering the difference in time between procs for setting a couple more sets of spells is under a second, which you're not admitting to or simply do not realize.

Tell me, as I'm curious as to how you're basing your conclusions, what is the difference between setting four spells and sixteen (both being the average amount of full sets you'll be able to have equipped in each scenario)? How many seconds difference in delay is it? How many seconds do you believe need to be shaved off by those extra spell sets in order to transcend the difference of a 30% or more damage increase?

I used your 6 sec from page ago

[Prothescar]

Which is a BLU with 32 proc spells set compared to a BLU with 0. How is that pertinent to your case?

[Atoreis]

I will be honest. I have no intention to calculate avg time shaved by setting only proc spells or even avg boost to damage from DD traits. I have better things to do and more important whatever numbers I would got you gonna still hit the ball back to me and I dont care even closely that much to play this game with you for so long. Do what you want Im off this topic for eternity.

[Prothescar]

Okay, then be quiet and submit that I'm correct if you aren't willing to provide evidence for your case.

[Yugl]

That's the worst argument I've seen in this thread and it's clear that you're prerogative is to have people be sheep under you rather than discuss the merits of your claim. This is supplemented by the fact that you fail to abstain from ad hominems during the course of discussion. It's quite appalling that you're driven by your ego more than truth.

[EjinCaitsith]

What you're arguing is that it's acceptable to make the ally wait to get BLU procs. You'll have a 18.75% chance that you have the proc set when setting DD traits, while a BLU setting all procs will have a 62.5% chance to proc. That's a 43.75% increase, and that's what we're arguing about.

From the second the monster is popped, there will be at least a 10-20 second wait to find all possible procs, sure you could get the hint 1/1, but realistically it will take 15 seconds to find it. Then you have to set the spells, which will take at least 10sec. Then there is the 60 second wait. Lastly, you have to cast the spells can proc them, which could take anywhere from 3 seconds to 30 seconds, so we can say 10 to be fair. That's 95 seconds from the start of the fight until your DD blu is able to proc. Which is time you will waste 81.25% of the time. A BLU setting maximum procs from the start only wastes this time 37.5% of the time.

This is the basic point of my argument. You're trying to justify BLU DD to shave mere seconds off a fight, while at the same time saying "Wait guys, don't kill, I'm waiting for spells to change."

[Prothescar]

That's the worst argument I've seen in this thread and it's clear that you're prerogative is to have people be sheep under you rather than discuss the merits of your claim. This is supplemented by the fact that you fail to abstain from ad hominems during the course of discussion. It's quite appalling that you're driven by your ego more than truth.

Seriously? Stop talking. So far I'm the only one that's provided hard evidence to support my claims, unlike Atoreis. Ad hominem is difficult to avoid when dealing with people who have an average willingness to understand akin to that of a household sponge. Your bias is showing.

What you're arguing is that it's acceptable to make the ally wait to get BLU procs. You'll have a 18.75% chance that you have the proc set when setting DD traits, while a BLU setting all procs will have a 62.5% chance to proc. That's a 43.75% increase, and that's what we're arguing about.

From the second the monster is popped, there will be at least a 10-20 second wait to find all possible procs, sure you could get the hint 1/1, but realistically it will take 15 seconds to find it. Then you have to set the spells, which will take at least 10sec. Then there is the 60 second wait. Lastly, you have to cast the spells can proc them, which could take anywhere from 3 seconds to 30 seconds, so we can say 10 to be fair. That's 95 seconds from the start of the fight until your DD blu is able to proc. Which is time you will waste 81.25% of the time. A BLU setting maximum procs from the start only wastes this time 37.5% of the time.

This is the basic point of my argument. You're trying to justify BLU DD to shave mere seconds off a fight, while at the same time saying "Wait guys, don't kill, I'm waiting for spells to change."

It's ok, 3rd grade was a long time ago, I don't expect you to remember what an average is. Fact is, for every fight you wait another minute, there'll be 10 you save more time. Failure to understand averages, and apparently prolonging more fights by smaller amounts is more acceptable?

[Yugl]

Seriously? Stop talking. So far I'm the only one that's provided hard evidence to support my claims, unlike Atoreis. Ad hominem is difficult to avoid when dealing with people who have an average willingness to understand akin to that of a household sponge. Your bias is showing.

See, you prove my point again. "Stop talking" you say? You're not in a position to control people. You're not even in a position to claim that I have a bias. You're not even proving your case because logically, there is a subjective issue. You cannot prove subjective stances. You can only reason them.

[Prothescar]

See, you prove my point again. 'Stop talking'. You're not in a position to control people. You're not even in a position to claim that I have a bias.

I am in the position to claim that you have bias, as you are absolutely taking sides in this situation. I don't care about your miniscule control over moderation powers either, as my posts have broken no rules. Your stubbornness and inability to comprehend my argument are astounding, and quite frankly, offensive.

I've provided more factual evidence and argument to this conversation than all of you combined, particularly yourself who has contributed 0 to it at all aside from criticism of my claims based on no grounds.

[Vriska]

What you're arguing is that it's acceptable to make the ally wait to get BLU procs. You'll have a 18.75% chance that you have the proc set when setting DD traits, while a BLU setting all procs will have a 62.5% chance to proc. That's a 43.75% increase, and that's what we're arguing about.

From the second the monster is popped, there will be at least a 10-20 second wait to find all possible procs, sure you could get the hint 1/1, but realistically it will take 15 seconds to find it. Then you have to set the spells, which will take at least 10sec. Then there is the 60 second wait. Lastly, you have to cast the spells can proc them, which could take anywhere from 3 seconds to 30 seconds, so we can say 10 to be fair. That's 95 seconds from the start of the fight until your DD blu is able to proc. Which is time you will waste 81.25% of the time. A BLU setting maximum procs from the start only wastes this time 37.5% of the time.

This is the basic point of my argument. You're trying to justify BLU DD to shave mere seconds off a fight, while at the same time saying "Wait guys, don't kill, I'm waiting for spells to change."

And your argument is only relevant 8.5% of the time, due to the number of procs, which is the basic point of OUR argument.

In addition to that, 56.25% of the time, by your numbers, the two hypothetical BLUs will take the exact same amount of time to proc (either by the DD BLU having the right proc set, or the proc BLU not having it set). So your argument further diminishes to being relevant 43.75% of 8.5% of the time, or 3.7% of the time. One in 27 fights.

So all a DD BLU has to do is speed a fight up by enough to save 95 seconds (your numbers) across 27 fights. Let's call it four seconds. Doesn't seem so unreasonable.

[EjinCaitsith]

It's ok, 3rd grade was a long time ago, I don't expect you to remember what an average is. Fact is, for every fight you wait another minute, there'll be 10 you save more time. Failure to understand averages, and apparently prolonging more fights by smaller amounts is more acceptable?

You seem to not understand the importance of chaining procs to keep the mob frozen/temps refreshed. Waiting those 90 seconds will only allow more of a chance that the mob will get off an unfavorable TP move or kill someone that doesn't have a fana. That's what our group does, and what I'm sure many others do. Waiting 90seconds for such an easy proc (you can't compare magic procs to WS procs, the former is infinity easier to proc in a short period of time) is unacceptable in that type of setup.

[Prothescar]

You seem to not understand the importance of chaining procs to keep the mob frozen/temps refreshed. Waiting those 90 seconds will only allow more of a chance that the mob will get off an unfavorable TP move or kill someone that doesn't have a fana. That's what our group does, and what I'm sure many others do. Waiting 90seconds for such an easy proc (you can't compare magic procs to WS procs, the former is infinity easier to proc in a short period of time) is unacceptable in that type of setup.

You're still ignoring averages, and the chance of BLU procs being chained together. You're also ignoring that you'll be waiting a significant amount of the time regardless of how many proc spells that the BLU has set. What is difficult to understand about this?

Also lol @ 90 seconds. It's 70 seconds at best unless your BLU is lethargic.