Blue Mage: Best thread ever

[Prothescar]

Buramenk'ah/Halachuinic > Mondaha/Halachuinic > Halachuinic/Genbu >> 99Almace/Camalatlia

[kenshyn]

Buramenk'ah/Halachuinic > Mondaha/Halachuinic > Halachuinic/Genbu >> 99Almace/Camalatlia

Cool thanks can't wait for the blue magic D change but until then its clobbering time on mnk and pup...

[Toth]

Thanks all. So STR or DEX path for the sword?

[kenshyn]

Man if we can unlock CDC for me it be dex but until then str it may not matter tho on the dex attk + more str can never hurt in my book with so much dex on other gear.

[doctorugh]

Buramenk'ah/Halachuinic > Mondaha/Halachuinic > Halachuinic/Genbu >> 99Almace/Camalatlia

Maths show:
Buramenk'ah/Halachuinuic #1
Halachuinic/Camalatlia #2
Halachuinic/Mondaha #3

At no point should we be single wielding or main handing club. #2 and #3 are actually very close, that delay is a killer.

[Prothescar]

I'd like to see your math because that's a rather questionable set of results.

[Kyte]

Man if we can unlock CDC for me it be dex but until then str it may not matter tho on the dex attk + more str can never hurt in my book with so much dex on other gear.

It still may not be the most readable post, but by god you finally made one without a poorly used aposiopesis. Moving on up!

[doctorugh]

I'd like to see your math because that's a rather questionable set of results.

Lets just take the instance of Halachunic/Genbu vs Halachunic/Camalatia

I will disreguard the +8 STR advantage of Hal/Cam
I will also disreguard WS damage which favors DW by 20%(ish)
Haste,ratio (set at 1),DA wil be the same so I will not factor in to avoid confusion
fSTR will be 10 (reasonable for delve fodder)

Hal/Gen: TP/hit (with STP+19) = 6.4tp

Damage per hit (104 +10) = 114

Assume 10 tp per WS for a total of 15 hits/WS (total time 228/60 x 15) = 57s
114x15 = 1710 / 57s = 30 dps

Hal/Cal: Tp/hit (with STP+19) = 5.7tp

Avg damage per hit (104+10+76+10)/2 = 100

Assume 12tp per WS for a total of 16hits/ws

Total time to WS 0.7(228+240)/2 / 60 x 16 = 43.68s

100x16 = 1600 / 43.68s = 36.6 dps

So even without additional WS damage given by DW, or the fSTR/att from offhand, its very clear.

[Dotsudoku]

How on earth can #2 & 3 be close and Mondaha/Halachunic not be better than both; Realmrazer with Mondaha should close the gap and then some

[doctorugh]

How on earth can #2 & 3 be close and Mondaha/Halachunic not be better than both; Realmrazer with Mondaha should close the gap and then some

I unfortunately dont have the time to go through all of it (work be kicking my ass), but bascially realmrazer edges out Req by roughly 9% if you disregard the acc, but the delay really hurts on how fast you are getting to WS. Additionally since club is in the mainhand, this hits the acc on your spells (which matters again). However, that being said, I shouldnt totally dismiss the club from mainhand, as it handly wins in any weak to blunt situation.

[Prothescar]

I'm sorry but that math that you posted isn't really an accurate interpretation of the DPS of the weapons for a variety of reasons. It leaves out several important factors, and assumes too many things.

I do still want some sort of logical analysis on why offhanding the high delay club is fine and nearly the same as another option but mainhanding it suddenly makes it bad. Delay doesn't change based on which hand you put it in, in fact you gain 1 or 2 TP from your weaponskills by mainhanding it, so if anything, Club/Sword weaponskills faster than Sword/Club by a miniscule amount... then we take a look at Realmrazer's superiority, and the fact that making up for the loss in accuracy isn't difficult on anything you'd bring a BLU to to begin with, especially for blue magic which you should not be having trouble landing on things that you'd actually want to cast it on in the first place.

My simulation puts weapon hierarchy as what I wrote above. Offhanding such an inferior weapon as Camalatlia with a delve sword or club is a DPS loss; it's an addition of delay for minimal overall gain in relative DPS; this is the case for essentially every one handed job at the moment in some situations, except most don't have the virtue of alternative weapon options to bridge the gap to delve naakuals for dual wield. Mainhanding the delve sword over the delve club before you get the Naakual sword is also a DPS loss, you're using a relatively inferior weaponskill on an overall relatively inferior weapon.

[Tidane]

I'm sorry but that math that you posted isn't really an accurate interpretation...

I'd be interested in seeing your numbers as well. When I looked at your hierarchy for the swords yesterday, they didn't match what I had found. I didn't look at clubs (though I may do that in the next few days), but it would be interesting to see what variables you used that I (and apparently others) have excluded or missed.

[Prothescar]

What were your results, and did you fail to incorporate weaponskills and proper damage calculations too?

[Toth]

I'm sorry but that math that you posted isn't really an accurate interpretation of the DPS of the weapons for a variety of reasons. It leaves out several important factors, and assumes too many things.

I do still want some sort of logical analysis on why offhanding the high delay club is fine and nearly the same as another option but mainhanding it suddenly makes it bad. Delay doesn't change based on which hand you put it in, in fact you gain 1 or 2 TP from your weaponskills by mainhanding it, so if anything, Club/Sword weaponskills faster than Sword/Club by a miniscule amount... then we take a look at Realmrazer's superiority, and the fact that making up for the loss in accuracy isn't difficult on anything you'd bring a BLU to to begin with, especially for blue magic which you should not be having trouble landing on things that you'd actually want to cast it on in the first place.

My simulation puts weapon hierarchy as what I wrote above. Offhanding such an inferior weapon as Camalatlia with a delve sword or club is a DPS loss; it's an addition of delay for minimal overall gain in relative DPS; this is the case for essentially every one handed job at the moment in some situations, except most don't have the virtue of alternative weapon options to bridge the gap to delve naakuals for dual wield. Mainhanding the delve sword over the delve club before you get the Naakual sword is also a DPS loss, you're using a relatively inferior weaponskill on an overall relatively inferior weapon.

The delve Naakual sword is too rare to be considered atm. Even if you are lucky to beat Tojii, you need to win the lot or play 200k plasm for it.

[Prothescar]

Irrelevant since the legitimacy of the Naakual sword isn't being disputed, rather what you'd use prior to getting one; Delve Naakuals being difficult to kill only strengthens the need for this conversation regardless of who's right.


I'd like to add that I made the fatal error of not mentioning that I'm keeping marches on for each simulation; dual wielding begins to win again as you drop haste for obvious reason.

[doctorugh]

I'm sorry but that math that you posted isn't really an accurate interpretation of the DPS of the weapons for a variety of reasons. It leaves out several important factors, and assumes too many things.

I do still want some sort of logical analysis on why offhanding the high delay club is fine and nearly the same as another option but mainhanding it suddenly makes it bad. Delay doesn't change based on which hand you put it in, in fact you gain 1 or 2 TP from your weaponskills by mainhanding it, so if anything, Club/Sword weaponskills faster than Sword/Club by a miniscule amount... then we take a look at Realmrazer's superiority, and the fact that making up for the loss in accuracy isn't difficult on anything you'd bring a BLU to to begin with, especially for blue magic which you should not be having trouble landing on things that you'd actually want to cast it on in the first place.

My simulation puts weapon hierarchy as what I wrote above. Offhanding such an inferior weapon as Camalatlia with a delve sword or club is a DPS loss; it's an addition of delay for minimal overall gain in relative DPS; this is the case for essentially every one handed job at the moment in some situations, except most don't have the virtue of alternative weapon options to bridge the gap to delve naakuals for dual wield. Mainhanding the delve sword over the delve club before you get the Naakual sword is also a DPS loss, you're using a relatively inferior weaponskill on an overall relatively inferior weapon.

The math I posted is totally accurate and leaves out parts that are identical to simplify looking at it. Things like double attack rate, haste, songs, rolls, cratio(now ratio) are all identical from one to the other so they can be left out for determining an accurate comparison.
If you really want to sword/shield (or club/sword), I think that's great. I'm not dogging anyone decision to enjoy the game however they choice. It provides a little variety to the game. But understand that there are better options in terms of damage.

As far as club/sword or sword/club, as far as WS goes: club/sword is the better option, but you drop some acc on your spells (if you are concerned about that sort of thing). Personally I am concerned with acc on newer mobs. But if melee is damage is paramount, then yes club/sword > sword/club. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.


Edit: just noticed you said that DW starts to win as you take out marches.....this can only mean you are over the delay cap to start with. Haste otherwise doesn't affect DW differently than SW as they are calculated separately. Is this the case?

[Prothescar]

Yes the fact that there are better options isn't being disputed, in fact I even listed some of them. Don't think that I find the single wield option to be amazing, it's just not a poor option to use before you get a second delve weapon to DW with your first one and will beat anything that you could use prior to Delve being released in many situations.

As for my grievances with your math, I don't generally find assuming 1.0pDIF and things like that as proper. When comparing weapons I tend to do it on things that I'd actually be hitting with buffs that I'd actually be getting and include every variable for accuracy; one thing that certainly is not the same between Club/Sword and Sword/Club, for example, is the fact that their weaponskills are disparate. It's a bigger deal than I feel most are appreciating when comparing these weapons, and just saying "well x if better than y by z%" and excluding it from DPS calculation entirely is removing a large variable in the accuracy of your results.

[dasva]

Shouldn't skirmish swd be beating naakul for offhand?

[Prothescar]

The delve weap/genbu shield and delve weap/camalatlia comparisons are intended for before you get your second delve weapon.

[Seeum]

Despite it not being the top option, there are a number of nice side-benefits to going with sword/shield: not having to set mortal ray/blazing bound (first time in years I've had more than enough points!), being able to switch to steelflash+bladeborn, easier to cap -pdt set, extra +cure pot/casting time, etc.

Given that I have plenty of other things to spend plasm/airlixirs on than a club that would eventually be relegated to a shiny proc weapon, it was a fairly easy decision for me to go with Halachunic/Genbu for the time being.