AV: Nobody Cares About Him Anymore...

[Tom Chambers]

And I'm sure someone could argue they'd rather actually play the video game they're paying for for those three hours instead of being the douche 'watching anime' instead of playing. So really you got nowhere with that, dude.

Nothing CoP threw at us time:reward wise is comparable to the kings

So you're saying Jailers are a better ratio? Or that you really can't get better/more drops, on average, from nine hours in Sea than you would nine hours at kings? Cause if it's the latter I'll have to hearitly disagree.

Kings get the free pass because 'douches' (see what I did there?) can 'watch anime' instead of playing the game, but the reality is it's about the same: Fewer drops for your time but chances for much better items with Kings.

[Lordwafik]

Or what I was saying is something like :

The same time you could have camped Fafnir, you could have killed tiamat, and if you claimed fafnir, you'd get a Talon(money), 1 or 2 possible abjs, all which are good, and ontop of that you may or may not get assjammers, hrotti, or the legendary ridill.

Losing to winning the pull was a waste of time, but on my server, Asura, after the claim patch, all LS's were pretty even on pulls. However tiamat popping on nidhoggs timer, and dropped much less on most tries. Hardly dropped gaitors each time, most likely you get a reward that's equivelant to a NQ king(Behemoth hide) or a BCNM drop (malboro fiber, Dama ingot), or even a SSG NM (Siren hair).

But hey, sometimes , on those rare occasions, you will get the lolKotes ,or herald gaitors, but there's nothing there to satisfy people in between those drops.

If Fafnir only dropped the ridill as his drop, I doubt we'd see half the people camping it anymore. There's other things between ridills to keep the players occupied, and that's where CoP failed. You can go through oh so many (3) fortitude axes or faith h2h before you want a "legendary" torque to drop.

[Lockecole]

But comparing time vs. reward, quite clearly jailers and comparable to kings.

the focus/effort needed for kings is a lot less than what you need constantly running around in Sea.

i never spent 3 hours camping kings, between every window i get to watch TV/anime, play another game, shower, eat, etc, etc.

because i know how to use my time, kings don't feel like a waste of time, even if i don't claim.

you would only equate them if you were a douche that wasted away staring at darters between windows.

As much as Im in support of sea being a viable place to get shit (hell I've gotten 2 very nice torques there and helped countless others get theirs, so Im happy) I still agree with Sendoh on this aspect.

Sea, unlike sky, and especially unlike kings takes EVERY OUNCE OF YOUR CONCENTRATION. Nothing can be halfassed. Your camp is always moving, ???s are always moving, escorts to get to Jailers...its just ALOT of concentrated effort in the time you actually spend doing these things.

Face it, if you spend alot of time in this game like I do, sometimes kings are a welcome addition to your schedule, letting you have some time away from the game, while still contributing to your LS. Nothing like being able to eat, nap, shower, play another game, all while still helping your LS out as much as possible at the moment. That sole aspect of kings I believe is why its so popular. Its the one thing in this game that you can actually go afk on.

If Fafnir only dropped the ridill as his drop, I doubt we'd see half the people camping it anymore. There's other things between ridills to keep the players occupied, and that's where CoP failed. You can go through oh so many (3) fortitude axes or faith h2h before you want a "legendary" torque to drop.

Don't mean to double post (hopefully someone got one inbetween me) but I really agree with Wafik on this one. There's no fucking tiers of drops for Sea. Its Weapons which I assume they knew would have been tossed eventually, and I believe are really only there for the AV battle. (100% drop hints at that, as if they are necessary in something to come.) Then you have Virtues, which arent really a drop, just a trigger item. Then you have Torques. Thats it. Torques. Wheres the stuff in between? Where's the average drops you get 50% of the time, where's the incredibly exceptional drop you look for (Shining Clothesque from Suzaku). People need ups and downs in order to enjoy a game. Highs and lows, contrasts help us enjoy something. When all you have is a HUUGE LULL with only a few big highs here and there, it just doesnt contrast well, and causes the obvious ADD effect in most LSes.

[Xavier]

Kings are gay, and kings arent anything to do with sea. Sky is the equivelance to Sea, and nothing else. Sky and Sea are both oranges, Kings are Apples, CoP's 3 kings were the 3 wyrms, which are also the apples.

They're zones unlocked by missions and have popped NMs. Okay. But comparing time vs. reward, quite clearly jailers and comparable to kings. And quite clearly, Limbus is a mesh of Dynamis and Sky as far as rewards go.

I understand it's not what we expected, but there you have it.

Calling bullshit. Have you played the expansion?

Quite clearly Jailers are not compareable to Kings. Jailers aren't 21-24hr pops, nor do they have good drops. You have to go all the way up to Jailer of Love to start finding drops worth camping for, and even then, the process involved in getting there can take weeks.

How can you call Limbus the CoP Dynamis and theres actually a CoP Dynamis? Limbus is a seperate, new function. And its the only thing right in CoP.

The CoP Wyrms are most compareable to the Land Kings, and, I don't know anyone that would rather have Noritsune Kote over say, anything that Aspid, KB, Fafnir or Nidhogg drop. Vrtra actually has a good drop, the BRD JSE is pretty nice, but hey, guess what, its yours for 8 million gil and a bit of luck.

Sky = Sea
Sky = 100% drop rate, money drops, abj, god gear
Sea = Horrible drop rates, torques that are debateably worse than wearing a lv 33 peacock charm, a 7MAB earring to get BLMs killed faster, and an unkillable final boss that actually has good drops, that will take 3 weeks to be able to pop if you farm Sea often, that wasn't even killable w/o a wall glitch that can't even be used anymore.

Time vs. Reward is FUCKED UP in CoP.

Now, take a look at the new expansion.

You can get a +30hp, +30 mp, +5% haste hat for just fucking meriting in the zones. I'd say thats about 150,000% better ratio of time vs. reward.

[Tom Chambers]

I think there was obviously alot of room for improvement with CoP, I'm just at a loss for how people who religiously camp the kings can be in any position to complain. I mean, I know why they do, but I'm not sure why they think "I wasn't really playing the game for most of those three hours so it doesn't count!" is a valid excuse.

When dealing with Kings or Jailers: Three/six/nine hours of your life are going to be spent in the hopes that you'll get some rare gear. Some people enjoy playing the game during this time, so Jailers aren't a big cryfest for them. Other people enjoy 'watching anime' for 2 hours and 50 minutes of it. Why group B needs to whine so much about Jailers while group A doesn't complain (as much) about Kings makes me sad and worried about other people's rationality: The gear is rare and the time spent is high either way, but is it so crazy to actually play this game you're paying for during that time?

Edit for Xavier: ...didn't think I'd have to write this again, you seem like kinda a smart guy but Sky and Sea are comparable in that they're both unlocked by missions and have popped NMs. They're not comparable in time spent but...if you look right above this paragraph, you'll see two other ones that clearly exhibit how Sea is comparable to Kings in a time/reward ratio. Limbus rewards are comparable to sky (god gear, money drops in the form of ABs) and Dynamis (AF+1 mats and the aforementioned ABs).

You can talk all you want about gameplay and how this zone is like that and this experience is like that, but I thought like 15 pages ago this turned into a time/reward thing, so that's what I'm on. If you want to talk about what zones remind you of what other zones maybe you can do your splitting and splicing and take your post back to page 3 where it belongs.

[Lockecole]

I think there was obviously alot of room for improvement with CoP, I'm just at a loss for how people who religiously camp the kings can be in any position to complain. I mean, I know why they do, but I'm not sure why they think "I wasn't really playing the game for most of those three hours so it doesn't count!" is a valid excuse.

When dealing with Kings or Jailers: Three/six/nine hours of your life are going to be spent in the hopes that you'll get some rare gear. Some people enjoy playing the game during this time, so Jailers aren't a big cryfest for them. Other people enjoy 'watching anime' for 2 hours and 50 minutes of it. Why group B needs to whine so much about Jailers while group A doesn't complain (as much) about Kings makes me sad and worried about other people's rationality: The gear is rare and the time spent is high either way, but is it so crazy to actually play this game you're paying for during that time?

People are lazy. Period. Most people would rather afk for 2hours 50mins, and get an item, then spend 3hours running around doing various things, and end up getting the item. Why? I have no idea. I pay to play this game, not to afk and get gear.

[Tom Chambers]

People are lazy. Period. Most people would rather afk for 2hours 50mins, and get an item, then spend 3hours running around doing various things, and end up getting the item. Why? I have no idea. I pay to play this game, not to afk and get gear.

Yeah, I know, but...they should at least admit it, ya know? It's not like I don't feel like running to Burger King in between windows and shit, but I don't start getting whiny/belligerent on the internet because I can't do that in Sea.

[Rocl]

Something really long but I saw Tiamat and (Siren hair).

. . .

[Maxxthepenguin]

Something really long but I saw Tiamat and (Siren hair).

. . .

lmfao I love Rocl

[Lordwafik]

I think there was obviously alot of room for improvement with CoP, I'm just at a loss for how people who religiously camp the kings can be in any position to complain.

I havent camped a king for months. Yes, there was (and still is) a lot of things to be changed with CoP to make it a great expansion, it had the potential to become the best expansion to shit on Zilart.

I mean , come on, 3 dragons? 3 Legendary dragons that need big alliences and people clearing adds? And when killed, plop.

the CoP dev team didnt listen to the players, and their stubbornness cost them a whole bunch of people quitting.

Fact is, if CoP was so great, why was it that one of the first LS's that got to sea, and reached JoL, now have a WoW forum under the FFXI forum, with other people following?

A long time ago, they did sky and made videos and were satisfied with it, there wasnt anything really that needed adjustments with it. They didnt quit, sky didnt fail.

CoP dev team didnt listen to us, when they took our suggestions , they were implemented poorly (see af2+1, see cop jug pets, see nothing but virtues and torques).

Already within a week of ToaU, so many of my ex-wow friends have came back to FFXI and are loving it, everyone loves assault, everyone loves to exp and chain infinite, we like mining in areas where it's not fucking retarded (see : newtown molvapolas, I tried mining there, but there's 3 T mobs guarding almost each mining point, aswell as a whm goblin casting barsleepra on them, so I couldnt really get anywhere there, compare it to Mount Zhaylom, every single point is safe as a rdm/nin aslong as you look out for wanderers).

Within 1 week we have our king which is kinda tough for new people, but not too tough, drops an amazing DRK GS, aswell as hides and claws to keep us busy between the swords, and the first ToaU end game patch has not even been implemented.

[Maxxthepenguin]

drops an amazing DRK GS

Wait, you care about DRKs?

[Tom Chambers]

Okay but...I wasn't talking about anything like that. Sea is just like Kings, except you can 'watch anime' and not play the game you're paying for at Kings. One is detested to pretty much farcical, comical extentsbecause of it's low time vs. reward ratio. The other, people just dislike the botting that takes place there, even if the time vs. reward ratio is basically the same- and you don't control the actual hour of the day you have to put in.

Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

[Lordwafik]

Okay but...I wasn't talking about anything like that. Sea is just like Kings, except you can 'watch anime' and not play the game you're paying for at Kings. One is detested to pretty much farcical, comical extentsbecause of it's low time vs. reward ratio. The other, people just dislike the botting that takes place there, even if the time vs. reward ratio is basically the same- and you don't control the actual hour of the day you have to put in.

Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Im not one of the people who watches anime between kings, I just whore forums, but then again, I whore forums while im pulling in dynamis, while im exp'ing, while im doing anything in FF really.


@ Maxx, Im not a bandwagon "I H8 DRK", I've seen the gigantic guillotines drk/war do on burn parties, it's sex.

[Demetrios]

our king which is kinda tough for new people, but not too tough, drops an amazing DRK GS, aswell as hides and claws to keep us busy between the swords, and the first ToaU end game patch has not even been implemented.

Cerberus really seems to drop COP-ish items. Cerberus bow NQ is worthless, the HQ is still a far cry from the level 55 E-Bow. The ring, which requires not one, but two claws gives +3 attack and +4 ranged attack -_- (not even Barone body from Jormungand is *THIS* awful.) Cerberus Mantle +1 is great, nothing beats it as long as the HQ really gives +15 attack. Algol is promising, maybe at worse an asthetically pleasing sidegrade to the Subduer.

[Ryko]

then spend 3hours running around doing various things, and end up getting the item

Yeah, the problem is the latter part doesnt happen.

[Lyramion]

The more Turbans SE added the better they made the game.... see the pattern... see the secret tactic?

[MisterBob]

Nine hours camping kings will often enough net you nothing at all. Nine hours in Sea will probably give you a couple torques. Another nine hours and you claimed Faf and got some nice things. Another nine hours in Sea and you have another couple of torques, maybe a cape or two.

Now, keeping in mind we're playing for ego in one way or another, whether you like that weskit more than that torque is a personal opinion, but how many people have weskits and how many people have torques? Rarity of items goes along way for ego in an MMORG. And what are we playing for again? Punishment is very subjective here.

Jailer rewards are akin to king rewards in difficulty and rarity as far as the design goes (Player preference and sheer time released makes king rewards more common in reality).

Limbus rewards are akin to Sky and Dynamis (god set + AF).

Kings are gay, and kings arent anything to do with sea. Sky is the equivelance to Sea, and nothing else. Sky and Sea are both oranges, Kings are Apples, CoP's 3 kings were the 3 wyrms, which are also the apples.

9 hours of camping sky can get you at least a ro'maeve water, a few god pop items, heck maybe enough to even pop 1-3 gods, maybe more.
Our last 9 hour sea session got us :

1x Temperance axe
2x Fortitude axe
dot.

We did this multiple times later, eventually the LS ended up with 2x Fort torques, 1x Temperance axe, 2x Faith h2h.

Nothing else. the amount of time farming the 12x Ghrah chip x2, giving us no torques was lame, after farming almost 7 stacks of chips for 2x torques, meh.

Torques arent 100% drops, virtues arent 100% drops, only thing that's 100% is the weapons, which most people think are complete junk. Some weapons are amazing, or have amazing potential (temperance axe) , but given to a job that's hardly ever allowed in the front lines, making it worthless again.

So you're trying to tell me that, in 9 hours, all you fought was Temperance and 2 Fortitudes? Can do 3-4 times that in 9 hours if you have any idea of what you're doing.

In our last 9 hours of Sea, we have obtained: (Well, it was probably around more like 7.5 hours, but whatever)
1 Fortitude Torque
3 Fortitude Axe
2 2nd Virtues
1 Merciful Cape
2 Deeds from Ix'MNK
1 Altruistic Cape (Kinda lame, was hoping for the deed :P )
4 Faith Baghnahks
1 Third Virtue (Faith is being a bitch lately, lucky it takes a whole 15 minutes to pop him if you have 5 scouts and arent retarded)
1 Deed from Ix'DRG

The torque was lucky, but the rest is pretty standard fare for us. Seems to me like you need to learn how to farm a lot more efficiently.

[DrObvious]

Killing 10-12 gods in sea(as well as getting all those pop items) in 7.5 hours belongs in the Guiness Book of World Records. I'm going to call bs, it can take up to one hour alone to do an Ix'MNK if you have to check both sides.

[MisterBob]

Ever heard of sending 1-2 people to each side?
Also, you're a total moron if you send 18 people after 1 thing in Sea. Any LS that farms it intelligently does it just like sky. You put people into groups of 3-12 depending on their target and go. Nothing in Tier 1 requires more than 12 people.

An example of 1-2 hours of farming:
6 people (manaburn) go to Ix'DRG
6 people (normal PT setup) go to Ix'DRK.
6 people farm Grhah M Chips, or go to pop Temperance.
When Temperance or Ix'DRK pop, you send the 6 people not on Ix'DRG to go help. When Ix'DRG pops you just kill it, since it is incredibly easy for a manaburn to do so.

You can also send 12 people after Faith, Fortitude, or MNK while 6 try to pop DRG or DRK.

If you have more than 18 people, then you can farm Sea even faster, obviously.

[XeFreaz]

Sky was the best endgame activity added to the game.

Before you disregard this and say sky sucks: No, shut up and listen.

Look at sky when it was first introduced, not now.

When Sky was first introduced, my linkshell was the only NA shell that did sky. The only competition we had for quite awhile was by misc groups doing 30 men Genbu and the occasional JP shell that didn't get their shit earliar.

With 3 people that could cast escape and the proper route, it took at most 5 minutes to get to the next pop NM. Most only took a couple of minutes. NMs that you had to pop took at most 30 minutes, normally less then 10. For the ones that pop on a timer, all you had to do was get a RNG to widescan to see if it was up. They also dropped, at the time, extremely powerful if not the best weapons excluding Faust.

Then once you get the pop sets, move onto Gods. And I dare you to say that God drops suck, excluding d.hands. I don't care that you drop N.feet now, back then every drop was extremly good for several jobs, if not every job that could equip it. And it wasn't just 1-2 good drops, you have them dropping SIX powerful rare/ex gear, gaurenteed pop item, and then money drops ontop of that.

On a good day, you could easily do all the pop NMs and all the Gods, and deck out SEVERAL people in powerful gear. It takes, at best, 2 weeks to have a shot at fighting a mob that drops only 2 pieces of good gear in sea. Sorry, torques suck. There's already a piece of armor in the game with ATK+5 and ACC+5. Torques are just +2 ACC and ATK increase in power, almost nothing.

But there is one problem to sky. Overpopulation. By the time we were able to start doing Kirin, other NA shells started to do sky aswell. Doing all 4 gods everyday was no longer an option. After awhile, it came to a point where you could pull down one to two Kirin sets per week. Now it's to the point where you're lucky if you get one pop item per day. Nobody wants to sky anymore because of that, aswell as the fact that the only drops needed after a year and a half are Osodes and W.legs.

HOWEVER, this is where the next step needs to be taken.

Either Sea should have been sky 2.0, or there should have been another area that was sky 2.0. The linkshells that whored sky in the beginging move to sky 2.0, new linkshells whore sky 1.0. By the time 2.0 is whored out, sky 3.0 is release and they move onto that. The new linkshells move up to 2.0, newer linkshells do 1.0. So on and so forth.

That's called progression. That's what should have happen. That's what didn't happen.

Sea sucks. You can say all you want that there's nothing else to do in the game besides sea, that's a valid arguement for a reason to go there. It doesn't change the fact that Sea sucks. It's extremely time consuming for horrible drops and drop rates with only two earrings be the only thing worth a damn, unless you count a mob that is currently unkillable. Blah blah blah, it's all be said before.

Kings suck too. Spend up to 3 hours doing nothing but wait for a mob to pop. Yeah, you can do something else like other people have said. But like somebody said above, I want to play the game. If I'm at home for 3 hours, I don't want to do some misc shit. I want to play what I pay for. I'd much rather go out and do something useful with that time.

Dynamis and Limbus are also good adds by SE. Downfalls ofcoarse. 3 day waiting period, not instanced, ect. Biggest flaw in my opinion though is that the big goals for those areas are horrible. Relic Weapons take up to over a year to finish, and most are only a minimal upgrade. Hell, some are even worse then other weapons availabe. Limbus, the people in my linkshell would rather farm in one party, get 60+ coins and 1.5 mil each every three days then do Limbus has a shell and get Homam and Nashira gear. And from talking to other people, that seems to be a popular problem in other shells on other servers.